sorry, another girl question :/

[joy_shape]

Not so much. But cling to what you must.

No one was ripping you. We were giving useful advice on how to land this broad. If you cant/dont want to fine. But dont get pissy. And once more in case you missed it...no nuzzling your head on a woman. Ever.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound pissy. I appreciate the advice. I struggle enough with making moves (sober) as it is, but usually have enough idea of when a girl likes me to pull it off. Maybe I would benefit more from risk taking, but as someone who can be socially anxious I don't like rejection and tend to wait until there's adequate evidence of interest. I think the original point of this thread was about I was quite confounded by the mixed messages I'm getting from this girl in this particular (which seem to get more confusing as time goes on), and basically just wanted to know if excessive physical touching was a sign of attraction.

[LrdViperScrpin]

She agrees, but while there makes a comment that really throws me: namely, that she's "always accused of being too flirty"

This.^^^

This is the point where you need to find out if she's interested. Pretty much any discussion of sex implies sexual interest. You should have made a move right there. That she brought up 'being too flirty' is flirting in and of itself. If you are still on flirting terms, make a move and don't look back.

[jimjoe2009]

I don't really think you're "not a man" so to speak i just think the girl intimidates you. For a girl you weren't really interested in im sure you could treat her like the garbage she wants to be. You gotta figure out a way to tear her down in your mind. Not to say the macho "blow me, whore" won't work, I just don't think it's you.

[LrdViperScrpin]

This whole be-a-man-not-a-little-girl (sexist) mantra is why I'm so reluctant to post about this stuff here; there's a lot more to social anxiety than the inability to "be a man".

The problem with this kind of mentality is that whether you like it or not (think it is sexist), you are not doing yourself any favors by rejecting it. The thing that you will learn if you attempt the "cocky+funny" attitude (even if you fake it) is that it will work with some girls. You will also learn that it won't always work with girls, or that at times you will have to dial it back, and be more sensitive. However, if you come on too strong being a "jerk," you will have a lot more luck than if you come on too strong being a pussy.

[Ataman]

Hey,
I feel like you should 'force the moment to its crises' as it were, and actually make a move or ask her if she likes you. This does not mean flat out asking there are many ways in which you can discuss this with her while retaining mutually exclusive knowledge if you know what I mean. Or if you really like her then act on it. Like others have said she may be waiting for a move. But also beware the doesn't know when to flirt girl because I think they do it to psychologically satisfy themselves. I would say that definitly do something as it doesnt soound like a comfortable situation.

[joy_shape]

This does not mean flat out asking there are many ways in which you can discuss this with her while retaining mutually exclusive knowledge if you know what I mean.

Not really. Could you give an example?

But also beware the doesn't know when to flirt girl because I think they do it to psychologically satisfy themselves.

What do you mean by this?

[Ataman]

Like speaking generally and asking things such as: Do you think guys should make the first move?
Do you think that skin contact creates closeness?
Do you enjoy spending time with me?
In this way without making it too uncomfortable you may be able to make your mind up about what she wants or she may even tell you.
By the last part I mean that some girls ( maybe not her I dont know) enjoy the attention and longitude of flirting and may not want to end because a) they don't really wish to start anything proper with that person or b) they may be doing it semi-conciously with partly knowing the effect they are causing and yet not understand the other persons point of view. There are of course other reasons but these were what I could think of right now. Im just saying if she is flirty or misunderstood as being too flirty by people around her then chances are she enjoys the social interaction that entails and is likely not that way only towards you. Or she is confused right now. But really just speak to her about it.
"As long as we keep talking..." Pink Floyd

[joy_shape]

The problem with this kind of mentality is that whether you like it or not (think it is sexist), you are not doing yourself any favors by rejecting it. The thing that you will learn if you attempt the "cocky+funny" attitude (even if you fake it) is that it will work with some girls. You will also learn that it won't always work with girls, or that at times you will have to dial it back, and be more sensitive. However, if you come on too strong being a "jerk," you will have a lot more luck than if you come on too strong being a pussy.

The problem with this kind of mentality is that whether you like it or not (think it is sexist), you are not doing yourself any favors by rejecting it. The thing that you will learn if you attempt the "cocky+funny" attitude (even if you fake it) is that it will work with some girls. You will also learn that it won't always work with girls, or that at times you will have to dial it back, and be more sensitive. However, if you come on too strong being a "jerk," you will have a lot more luck than if you come on too strong being a pussy.

I get what you're saying, and certainly find that most of the women I've dated in fact prefer the dialed-back-more-sensitive me (my attempts to come off as a 'jerk' were usually dismissed as asshole-ish).

But my problem is basically that I haven't had a lot of experience dating, flirting, etc. I went to an all-boys school, attended college prematurely (at 17, and didn't meet many people). Most of the women I've ended up with have made the first move, which has tended to promote a certain helplessness in me. There have been two girls - the only two where our chemistry was so intense that I was literally moved to touch them - that have been the exception. Battling with extended depression and anxiety over the past 3-4 years has further taken me 'out of the game'. Since I am still relatively depressed and unsociable, I find it hard to muster up the whole jerk thing, which I guess is why I was slightly taken aback and was wondering if there was some alternative way I could approach the situation, since, for all intents and purposes, she doesn't seem to mind the less-enthusiastic, dysthymic me.

Anyway, I feel like there are certain basics I haven't been educated in, and my shyness does lead me towards wanting to learn more about how to pick up on cues etc. To me, a girl touching you automatically meant she likes you, but then the disclaimers from this girl in particular (and reading around on google) left me somewhat confused. Since I've written here, there's been more (a spontaneous massage) and her threading her arm through mine while walking (again with the disclaimer that she simply 'likes to touch people, and will always hug her family members').

But your suggestion that any mention of flirting = flirting is helpful because I've noticed her progressing towards mentioning sex around me (e.g. sex is really important to her, but then, confusingly, relating some anecdote about how she almost ended up having sex with some woman in a sauna the other day .. I presume she's bi?). At the same time, she is very open about a lot of other stuff (neuroses, health problems etc.) which make me feel more like a friend. I also took up Tkarrde's suggestion to refuse an offer to sleep on the couch; she then said that she would let me stay in her bed but finds it hard to fall asleep with other people around and had to be up early the next morning.

Still, I've realized that she isn't really dating material and that if I do sleep with her, it could screw up our friendship circle (there's some overlap), so I'm probably going to drop it here.

[joy_shape]

Like speaking generally and asking things such as: Do you think guys should make the first move?
Do you think that skin contact creates closeness?
Do you enjoy spending time with me?
In this way without making it too uncomfortable you may be able to make your mind up about what she wants or she may even tell you.

This is useful, thanks. She has said that she enjoys being around me.

By the last part I mean that some girls ( maybe not her I dont know) enjoy the attention and longitude of flirting and may not want to end because a) they don't really wish to start anything proper with that person or b) they may be doing it semi-conciously with partly knowing the effect they are causing and yet not understand the other persons point of view. There are of course other reasons but these were what I could think of right now. Im just saying if she is flirty or misunderstood as being too flirty by people around her then chances are she enjoys the social interaction that entails and is likely not that way only towards you. Or she is confused right now. But really just speak to her about it.
"As long as we keep talking..." Pink Floyd

This is perceptive too. I found her somewhat self-absorbed, though perhaps accidentally, i.e. more through neuroses than vanity, but she does seem intensely interested in relating her own problems etc. while doing very little to find out about me, despite constant questioning and shows of interest and whatnot on my part.

[Ataman]

Foreign saying: The heart lands on grass, but also on shit. If you have feelings for her then fine, but aside from that don't play into her thing, if she is pissing you off with her behavior. Also standing back is a good evaluation. But don't monkey around if you do like her. Just be honest.

[BenchThis]

From a woman who used to drink a lot to manage, there is a fine line between casual drinker and oops I am drinking to cover my issues. Drinking apron drink in is to cover guilt She may like you but if she feels guilt about anything she said she will not bring it up again unless she is really drunk. (this is not good). Sounds like until you talk to her when she is sober you will not find the truth. You may catch her wasted and get sex, but she won’t remember too much, sounds like a cycle of guilt too me. Wanna change that…? Be the guy that forgives her, don’t dwell on what she said when drunk, or how she acted, try just telling her you were intrigued by her.

[AshleyMarie093]

OVERANALYZING. If it's right, it's right, and you will both know it and shit will just happen. Otherwise, let it go. There was not enough chemistry to sustain. When you are madly drawn to someone and find everything about them fascinating/wonderful, and can't be around them without wanting to jump their bones, yeah, that's when there is potential

[rwac]

For guys at least, nerves can get in the way, even if they do feel the chemistry.

[Last1Standing]

For guys at least, nerves can get in the way, even if they do feel the chemistry.

I hate this. I will feel a lot of chemistry with a girl but this also escalates my anxiety. So I either try to be perfect out of fear of messing things up, which causes me to be dull/uninteresting/robotic/outcome seeking and ironically causes her to run away, or the fear (anxiety) itself turns her off. Furthermore, continuing the vicious cycle of rejection and deprivation, which seems to be the cause of the problems to begin with.