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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    I don't want to sound like a dick, but if I remember correctly REMOVING and not adding supps to your regimen has already taken you a long way, right?
    Well, I sure as hell hope you did not get me to order all those supplements and then tell me not to use them. Then you would actually be a dick.

    But if what you are saying is that I should not get too high hopes, I agree. I remain cautiously optimistic.

    If by taking me a long way you refer to the high sex drive I reported of, I have experienced similar cycles many times earlier, but there is no doubt that I feel better off clomiphene this time around. While libido was off the charts (normalized now) for three days at the start of this week, I still felt tired and fatigued.

    Remaining optimistic for the future.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah View Post
    Well, I sure as hell hope you did not get me to order all those supplements and then tell me not to use them. Then you would actually be a dick.

    But if what you are saying is that I should not get too high hopes, I agree. I remain cautiously optimistic.

    If by taking me a long way you refer to the high sex drive I reported of, I have experienced similar cycles many times earlier, but there is no doubt that I feel better off clomiphene this time around. While libido was off the charts (normalized now) for three days at the start of this week, I still felt tired and fatigued.

    Remaining optimistic for the future.
    no, I do not want to say that you should not use them, but you should closely watch if they improve the recovery (which appears to take place) or not

    people here always add another supplement, when in 80% of the cases their supp-regimen (or what they believe is their "healthy diet") makes them sick
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    no, I do not want to say that you should not use them, but you should closely watch if they improve the recovery (which appears to take place) or not

    people here always add another supplement, when in 80% of the cases their supp-regimen (or what they believe is their "healthy diet") makes them sick
    Ok, that`s good.

    Should I start with either Maca or Ginkgo first then?

    What about the melatonin?

    I still try to understand how melatonin will help me since I do not have any trouble ever with getting to sleep at night. Will it still help me regulate my cortisol rhythm? Is that your theory? You mentioned 10 mg per night. Is that not overkill?

    Another question pertaining to sleep rhythm and exposure to sunlight. Do I sleep in a dark room or keep the curtains off? Right now I don`t have curtains in my new apartment, so I wake up to the sunlight every morning. Feels very good. May be a problem in summer though, when the nights get really light as well.

    Thanks,

    Elijah

  4. #44
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    As an aside, this is great...a German helping a Norwegian with his health issues and both of them conversing in fluent English for the benefit of their American hosts! Gotta love the interweb...
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah View Post
    Ok, that`s good.

    Should I start with either Maca or Ginkgo first then?

    What about the melatonin?

    I still try to understand how melatonin will help me since I do not have any trouble ever with getting to sleep at night. Will it still help me regulate my cortisol rhythm? Is that your theory? You mentioned 10 mg per night. Is that not overkill?

    Another question pertaining to sleep rhythm and exposure to sunlight. Do I sleep in a dark room or keep the curtains off? Right now I don`t have curtains in my new apartment, so I wake up to the sunlight every morning. Feels very good. May be a problem in summer though, when the nights get really light as well.

    Thanks,

    Elijah
    a) start with the maca... I personally believe it will help you more with energy and libido (because it has overall more bioactive nutrients in

    b) use the melatonin to get to bed before 10pm (and to force your body into the rythm you will need the 10mg) no matter if you are not tired or not. Take it, brush your teeth, shower and do whatever you usually do, close the curtains (pitch black room!) and go to sleep

    @Beson: That is globalization of peer-education (what a rhyme!)
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  6. #46
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    Got it boss.

    I got most of my goods today. Some stuff is withheld in customs requiring a medical subscription. I think perhaps it is the Mucuna Pruriens.

    So, today I started with:

    Maca - Package says 3 pills per day spread out through the day. Think I`ll start with one in the morning and one in the evening. 500 mg pills.
    Vitamin D-3 800 IU per day
    B-vitamin complex 1 pill
    AAKG 2000 mg (one serving size) - This is supposed to be good for blood circulation and erectile quality.

    The melatonin was ordered much later, but I will start using it when it arrives.

    Physical status: Ignoring a minor cold, I`ve been feeling fairly decent the last weeks. Libido is on average at a level that I can accept and live with and occassionally sky-rocket. Still feel fatigue, but have not been as much the last days.

    Thanks,

    Elijah

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah View Post
    Got it boss.

    I got most of my goods today. Some stuff is withheld in customs requiring a medical subscription. I think perhaps it is the Mucuna Pruriens.

    So, today I started with:

    Maca - Package says 3 pills per day spread out through the day. Think I`ll start with one in the morning and one in the evening. 500 mg pills.
    Vitamin D-3 800 IU per day
    B-vitamin complex 1 pill
    AAKG 2000 mg (one serving size) - This is supposed to be good for blood circulation and erectile quality.

    The melatonin was ordered much later, but I will start using it when it arrives.

    Physical status: Ignoring a minor cold, I`ve been feeling fairly decent the last weeks. Libido is on average at a level that I can accept and live with and occassionally sky-rocket. Still feel fatigue, but have not been as much the last days.

    Thanks,

    Elijah
    did you take the b-complex before? I have noticed that for me those "B-complexes" with their 100% unreasonable combination of different B's usually make me tired and feel burned out. And even if they don't they are still a waste of money
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
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    As ProfDrAndro, I am also one of the heads behind

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    did you take the b-complex before? I have noticed that for me those "B-complexes" with their 100% unreasonable combination of different B's usually make me tired and feel burned out. And even if they don't they are still a waste of money
    Interesting. Any reason why?

    Do I take it that you think I should drop them then or what?

    No, I did not take it earlier. Just picked up advice earlier on this forum that I should be taking a good B-complex.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah View Post
    Interesting. Any reason why?

    Do I take it that you think I should drop them then or what?

    No, I did not take it earlier. Just picked up advice earlier on this forum that I should be taking a good B-complex.
    jaja, everyone should take his multi and his B-complex < if you are everyone. do it, if you are smart you take what you know that helps you and do not drink from the supplemental kitchen sink in which the bros and company reps urinate their "secret" and "superpotent" urine... ah, I mean supplements
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    jaja, everyone should take his multi and his B-complex < if you are everyone. do it, if you are smart you take what you know that helps you and do not drink from the supplemental kitchen sink in which the bros and company reps urinate their "secret" and "superpotent" urine... ah, I mean supplements
    Would you mind bringing forth that message a little clearer as I have a hard time reading between the lines? You don`t think I should take vitamins at all?

    How long should I give the maca before I decide it works or don`t?

    FWIW, I notice nothing yet, for good or worse.

  11. #51
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    wrt to vitamins, the jury is still out there, but overall there is 20% evidence against their use, 75% says they are useless and 5% says they are effective - as a kitchen sink (=multivitamin) approach in the absence of specific deficiencies. So NO, NOBODY MUST TAKE A MULTIVITAMIN

    wrt to the maca give it 2 weeks, anything you would feel by now MUST necessarily be placebo, 'cause as I pointed out before, this is like healthy eating < won't improve your condition after just 1 week
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    wrt to vitamins, the jury is still out there, but overall there is 20% evidence against their use, 75% says they are useless and 5% says they are effective - as a kitchen sink (=multivitamin) approach in the absence of specific deficiencies. So NO, NOBODY MUST TAKE A MULTIVITAMIN

    wrt to the maca give it 2 weeks, anything you would feel by now MUST necessarily be placebo, 'cause as I pointed out before, this is like healthy eating < won't improve your condition after just 1 week
    Interesting.

    I`ll think I will stick with my regular multivitamin + Vitamin D-2, but drop the rest.

    I`ll give it 2 weeks and see what happens. Nothing to report yet.

  13. #53
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    Maca

    After 12 days on Saturday, I decided to stop taking this supplement since I did not experience any positive effects from it that I noticed. Actually, I have been experiencing some light unwarranted anxiety the last days and during the latter part of this week I was very tired and fatigued. The type that is not natural. Anxiety left completely yesterday and I feel nothing of it now.

    Too short of a trial period? Maybe, but I would think I should at least notice SOMETHING after 12 days. Considering that the Maca may have caused the anxiety, it does not seem worth it for me to continue taking it.

    What now?

    I think I`ll start out with the Ginkgo Biloba and possibly melatonin now.

  14. #54
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    Physicus recommended 10 mg of melatonin at night. Reading up on recommended dosages, I thought it seemed a little high, so I decided to at least start with 6 mg and take it from there.

    I took my first dose at Sunday night and I slept like a baby throughout the night like I always do, although I was pretty tired already before taking them. I occasionally wake up in the night very briefly, but that has not happened these last days, so I probably sleep deeper on melatonin. Possibly a little more tired in the morning as well.

    The thing is that my libido have been down the drain the last days, although I`m feeling OKAY physically. Could be entirely random, but I did read about a few people experiencing a decrease in libido while on melatonin. If the low libido persists, maybe I need to try 3 mg.

    I also started using Ginkgo Biloba yesterday.

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    I also meant to ask if the melatonin in any way is supposed to help me regulate a cortisol rhythm that is possibly out of whack or if it is entirely for the purpose of getting early to bed?

    The thing is that I do not have any sleep issues and always fall asleep easily, so I certainly do not need help for that in itself.

  16. #56
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    Others are of course welcome to answer as well, but I`m sure physicus will chime in as soon as he gets the chance. Until then, I stopped taking the melatonin, as I want to know for sure why I would take it. I can get to sleep with or without it, so if it does not have any effect on the cortisol rhythm itself I don`t see any reason to use it. Maybe I`m better off giving it to my mother who suffers from light insomnia.

    Current status:

    Ignoring natural tiredness and fatigue in the immediate morning, which I assume may be completely normal, I actually have been feeling fairly well recently. My concentration is good and my general energy is at least acceptable on a daily basis. One always wish to feel great at all times, but I certainly don`t feel as bad that I would consider writing online for help about it and I manage to do my daily work (office work).

    Libido and erectile quality however remains at less than desirable levels. I`m able to and often feel the need to sexually release daily, but my erections are not super strong and lack a certain fullness so to speak. A subtle, but noticeable difference. I also very rarely have morning wood and during the times I do, it is often half-provoked by my own in half-sleep. 3-4 weeks ago, I went through a period with raging libido and where I had no choice but to release several times per day and I had a plump penis for most part of the day. Nothing in particular about that time period stands out. Well, I did have contact with a new girl, but that I have now as well.

    I currently use: multivitamin, D-3, ginkgo biloba, fish oil, sunlight every day and a fairly healthy diet.

    The D-Aspartic Acid is standing on my shelf and begging to be used. Do you guys think I should give it a shot already? Considering that I did not notice anything from the ginkgo yet, I would assume it is safe to add the D-AA now?

    PS: I also ordered a full body check with ultra sound to rule out a possible varicocele, as suggested by a friend of mine. Who knows?

    Regards and thanks,

    Elijah

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    Guys,

    Flying back to my parents for the holidays I felt very sharp mentally and fairly good physically, although libido was low. I was concentrated, focused and happy. Periodically, I`ve been feeling tired and fatigued such that even reading a newspaper takes an effort from me, but this time I really enjoyed reading on the plane and even read a random magazine from the airline from cover to cover afterwards because I was "hungry" for knowledge. Maybe the Ginkgo is helping in the mental department. I also felt very happy and carefree and even accepted my lack of libido and did not let if affect me.

    At the end of the holiday though, I noticed a change and I started feeling very tired both physically and mentally. The typically annoying comments from parents that I just shrugged off and laughed at earlier in the holiday, made me want to snap back at them and I really had to focus on staying calm. I felt mentally very tired. I don`t know. Maybe it`s normal after spending a week with my parents.

    Anyways, I have been feeling kind of crappy the last days. Still fairly happy and such mentally, but my problems of low libido and lack of wood persists.

    I also donated blood during the holidays and my latest ferritin measure was at 200, which is certainly not low considering that I donate blood. However, it is still within the range, so I guess it may be normal.

    It`s strange to think that over a month back I went through a period of raging libido and actually feeling normal for once. A natural testosterone spike? I really don`t know and can`t tell. It`s far gone now.

    The only thing I know is that I`m really starting to lose patience with this and I`m certainly not getting younger. I don`t want to spend many years trying to find out of this on my own, so I`m even considering getting started with TRT, although a part of me have a strong resistance against this.

    I`m scheduled for a ultrasound check by the end of the month, so maybe that will give me some answers.

    Then there`s the D-AA to consider, but will it be a permanent solution? Can it reverse and cure anything in my body or will it just be a quick fix? Maybe I should consider the Tongkat Ali one more time which actually worked?

    At the end of my ropes here...

    As always, any input is welcome and highly appreciated.

    Regards,

    Elijah

  18. #58
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    I quickly read through your threads, forgive me for scanning. 432ng/dl was your test, right? Mine was at 317ng/dl. I had many of the same symptoms you have. I'll go through quickly

    Tired in the morning... cure was to drop body fat. I went on a 3 month attack plan of dropping bodyfat. I went on atkins, used clen, calorie deficit and did tons of low intensity long duration cardio. I went from 210lbs to 160 and went from 20% bf to about 10%. This was all still at ~317ng/dl. I was lifting for about a year prior, and stopped for the 3 months. I went back to square 1 for my lifts, all dropped back to when I first started lifting. This was sad, but I anticipated it. I assume I transitioned to a greater % of type 1 muscle. If my testosterone levels were higher, I think I would have kept some of my lifting gains. After this drop in bodyfat, I went from groggy in the morning where it would take half the day to come out of my funk, to waking up and feeling like I already had 3 cups of coffee.

    All my other issues went away with a self-done TRT. I'm low enough where I could probably get a TRT prescribed, but I don't want to be monitored. I don't like blood samples (hate needles in my veins, OK with injecting, just not into a vein), and I want to be able to "blast."

    I was a life long hardgainer. I'd lift for 3 months, see no gains, and stop. I did this for about 10 years. Then last year, I had a really strong feeling my testosterone levels were low. A blood test confirmed it (hated having it done). http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4...odworkcopy.jpg

    Right after that, I said f' it and ran a cycle. After making tiny gains for so long, I went from 177 to 210 in a month. Granted, some of it was fat, some of it was water. But the fact that my strength went through the roof, and I blew up like a balloon, tells me I was doing everything right, just limited by low testosterone. That month was the best month I've ever lived through. Gone were my occasional suicidal thought, depression, anxiety, low self esteem. I felt like I king. I went from think of all the things that would go wrong to a "f it, lets do it" type attitude. In college, I'd get a panic attack talking to a professor. Or anyone important or a celebrity or whoever. Now I can see people do the same thing to me. I'm calm as can be, and people will swallow or shift around a little like I used to do. People say androgens give roid rage, I say it makes you more like yourself. It calmed me down tremendously. I'm more productive at work. Never at a loss for words. I could go on.

    There may be a simple answer to your low testosterone. For me, it was a UTI or infection I had several years ago. I suspect it was always low, and the UTI kicked it down another 100 or 2. I say I suspect it was low because I had all the symptoms of low test back in high school, when in theory it should have been high. Your problem of low testosterone will be either primary or secondary. Primary means there's a problem with the testes themselves. Secondary means there's a problem with LH product somewhere upstream. I see your FSH and LH were both at the bottom of the scale, this is a huge flag IMO.

    The Hypothalamus senses testosterone and produces GnRH that the anterior pituitary sees and produces LH. The problem could lie in the hypothalamus or the pituitary. I'll have to quickly read through your threads and see what you've done so far, but I think I saw a clomid treatment in there (3 weeks if I remember?). Common steroid PCT is to run clomid to jumpstart, as you were doing. Many run it as long as you, but I was able to recover from only 4 days of it (back up to my low levels).

    I see you wanted to raise E2, not sure if that's a good idea. I remember on Phys' blog, he wrote about how estradiol to estrone ratio impacts insulin sensitivity.

    a recent review by Barros and Gustafson (Barros. 2011), for example emphasizes its role in the well-known insulin induced expression of GLUT-4 receptors on the cell-membrane of the muscle; in that, ERα modulates GLUT4 translocation to the cell membrane and thusly stimulates glucose uptake, whereas ERβ is a repressor of GLUT4 expression; in view of what you have learned about the potentially insulin sensitizing effects of testosterone the latter could well depend on the ratio of estrogen to estrone to which the testosterone is converted in the course of central, as well as peripheral aromatization processes; with a high estradial to estrone ratio favoring insulin resistance (estradiol has identical binding affinities for both receptors, while estrone is more or less ERα specific) - a more recent studies by Rüegg et al. does yet suggest that the complete absence of ER is equally detrimental (Ruegg. 2011)
    I'll try and help out more. My apologies if some of what I addressed has already been covered. I'm a little short on time. Best of luck - d

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    I've gotten to the point where I can control my libido through pharmaceuticals, and here is how I complete this:

    Bupropion - 300 mg XR gives both desire and erections
    HCG - 250 IU 2x weekly
    Thyroid: 25 mcg T4
    Cabergoline: 0.5 mg 1x weekly
    Cialis 20 mg (this does not work as well, NO tends to deplete desire by oxidizing catecholamines)
    And, of course, amphetamines --- which you presumably don't have access to in Scandanavia.

    Low estrogen can be a key component in libido, but it's really a multi-layered approach. A libido is annoying to me, so I don't address except as situation specific. Naturally, some of the above remedies do not address the root cause of your problem. Clomiphene may cure your problem, but it's an antagonist at the hypothalamus of estrogen. Long-term dosing will hopefully "cure" your problem, but the interim has the opportunity to be quite poor in terms of libido. If you can convince a physician to measure your DHEA, it'd be nice to know those numbers. I recently started taking DHEA and did not notice a substantial libido increase, but rather morning tumescence. This took 50 mg, and my volume of distribution threshold is quite low. You might benefit from doubling the dose. Remember, DHEA converts into essentially pure estrogen. It's not uncommon for people to supplement 100+ mg per day, but I wouldn't necessarily do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtrain View Post
    I quickly read through your threads, forgive me for scanning. 432ng/dl was your test, right?

    There may be a simple answer to your low testosterone. For me, it was a UTI or infection I had several years ago. I suspect it was always low, and the UTI kicked it down another 100 or 2. I say I suspect it was low because I had all the symptoms of low test back in high school, when in theory it should have been high. Your problem of low testosterone will be either primary or secondary. Primary means there's a problem with the testes themselves. Secondary means there's a problem with LH product somewhere upstream. I see your FSH and LH were both at the bottom of the scale, this is a huge flag IMO.

    I see you wanted to raise E2, not sure if that's a good idea.
    Hey dtrain,

    Thanks for reaching out and sharing your experiences.

    My last measurement of total testosterone is 375 ng/dl. Clomiphene boosted me over 500 ng/dl, but SHBG increased substantially as well, such that free testosterone did not really increase much at all, if any. I did feel better though, but maybe it was placebo. Both testosterone, SHBG, LH/FSH dropped after I quit the treatment though.

    With regards to the E2, it has earlier been said that the test I`ve taken is not sensitive enough such that it is not a precise number. I did however notice that it seemed rather low and I know that too little estrogen is said to negatively impact libido.

    Considering that I often have experienced libido spikes, sometimes after drinking alcohol (certainly not always though), I reasoned that perhaps estrogen would be worth checking out. Not so sure any longer.

    I think you`re right in that my case is secondary hypogonadism, since my LH levels are at the bottom range. But hey, who wants too much of a "lady hormone"? At least that`s what my doctor told me three years ago.

    Do not apologize for writing. Any advice and support is appreciated.

    I think I`ll start a new thread later today as I have pretty much decided to give TRT a trial and see if I improve.

    Regards,

    Elijah

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