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  1. #1
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    Default Targeting Dopamine without Stimulants?

    Looking to for ways to increase motivation/drive without the use of stimulants. Can't handle the wired feeling I get from adderall or provigil. Hell, I can't even handle the stimulation I get from a single cup of coffee these days.

    Had a very strange reaction to ropinirole last week where .25mgs induced an almost euphoric state and extreme sense of well being. Given this extreme reaction I don't think I'll be pursing the route of DA agnoists and the potential for DAWS.

    I have slightly elevated blood pressure (140/70). I also have an intolerance to alcohol. I used to drink like a fish in my college days but recently even small amounts increase my anxiety and restlessness.

    Used excessive amounts of opiates throughout grad school so I'm looking for something nonaddictive.

    Is it possible to increase dopamine levels in a nonaddictive, long term manner? If so, where would you start?

  2. #2
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Exercise. A lot.

    Diet.

    Maybe an NMDA antagonist, as well.

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    Senior Member adreno's Avatar
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    CDP-choline has some weak evidence for this. Other than that... Amisulpride?

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    Amsulpride sounds interesting as it helps many people with dysthymia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belfort View Post
    Amsulpride sounds interesting as it helps many people with dysthymia..
    Strongly hedonic response to DA agonists suggests very low D2 autoreceptor activity, which itself suggests a dysphoric response to amisulpride. Probably should tread cautiously there.

    As to the OP, your options are limited. Exercise is honestly one of the best possible things you can do for general DA function. If your primary goals are motivation and drive, you might consider an NRI of some sort. NRIs do act on DA in the PFC, but -- perhaps more importantly -- NE is also heavily involved in motivational salience. You may also consider trying either an SSRI or an anticonvulsant to try and manage the drug hypersensitivity that you seem to have.

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    Maybe some 5-ht2c antagonist?

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    Senior Member niaouli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adreno View Post
    CDP-choline has some weak evidence for this. Other than that... Amisulpride?
    studies suggest CDP-choline supplements increase dopamine receptor densities,
    Mr. Bean is a patient of Mercola right?

    YES, bravo Ubiyca

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    Have you tried bupropion? One of its mechanisms of action is to inhibit nACHr, which on GABAergic neurons play an inhibitory role on dopamine release in the Nucleus Accumbens. Bupropion, by inhibiting acetylcholine induced stimulation of nACHr on GABAergic neurons, is theorized to enhance basal dopamine release in the Nucleus Accumbens. I can tell you that after almost 4 weeks of use my mood, motivation, and energy levels have skyrocketed. The first 12-14 days were really rough, but after adjusting I feel great.

    Check this out- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2067251/




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    Quote Originally Posted by kassem23 View Post
    Exercise. A lot.

    Diet.

    Maybe an NMDA antagonist, as well.
    I'm currently lifting 3-4 days a week and skiing on the weekends, anymore and I think I'm gonna lose mass instead of gain it (172 lbs 6 ft). Diet is pretty solid too, high protein, decent amount of fat, limited carbs. Have not looked into the NMDA antagonists but given my experience with tramadol and ketamine in the past not sure that's a long term solution. But I could certainly be missing something as I'm no expert...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    Strongly hedonic response to DA agonists suggests very low D2 autoreceptor activity, which itself suggests a dysphoric response to amisulpride. Probably should tread cautiously there.

    As to the OP, your options are limited. Exercise is honestly one of the best possible things you can do for general DA function. If your primary goals are motivation and drive, you might consider an NRI of some sort. NRIs do act on DA in the PFC, but -- perhaps more importantly -- NE is also heavily involved in motivational salience. You may also consider trying either an SSRI or an anticonvulsant to try and manage the drug hypersensitivity that you seem to have.
    Would general DA function benefit most from cardio or weight training?

    Selegiline, and amisulpride looked very interesting but after reading through the DAWS thread I'm extremely hesitant. It was my understanding that Selegiline shouldn't cause tolerance/addiction in the same way DA agonists do, but there's at least one guy in that thread who seems to have experienced severe withdrawl.

    Bupropion sounds like a solid fit (I think this would fall into your reference of NRI's?) but I'm concerned about too much NE given my intolerance for caffeine/stimulants. Nonetheless, I'm gonna try to get a script for it next week.

    I've been taking 5 mg of Lexapro for the past 3 weeks but don't feel that it's fully kicked in (either that or I'm still suffering some wd symptoms from my one dose of ropinirole last week). Zoloft sounds interesting for it's weak action on DA, would like to try it if the leaxpro doesn't take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdog527 View Post
    Have you tried bupropion? One of its mechanisms of action is to inhibit nACHr, which on GABAergic neurons play an inhibitory role on dopamine release in the Nucleus Accumbens. Bupropion, by inhibiting acetylcholine induced stimulation of nACHr on GABAergic neurons, is theorized to enhance basal dopamine release in the Nucleus Accumbens. I can tell you that after almost 4 weeks of use my mood, motivation, and energy levels have skyrocketed. The first 12-14 days were really rough, but after adjusting I feel great.

    Check this out- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2067251/



    Bupropion is extremely interesting to me and I plan to try it soon. I am concerned about it's action on NE and my intolerance for caffeine/stimulants. Is low dose bupropion a valid route to take?

    Do you have a recommendation for starting dose and whether I should try the SR or XL?

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    Certified Personal Trainer- NASM,NPTI,NCSA
    Corrective Exercise Specialist- NASM
    Certified Bodybugg Practitioner - APEX

    "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." - Psalms 14:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by mopes View Post
    Bupropion is extremely interesting to me and I plan to try it soon. I am concerned about it's action on NE and my intolerance for caffeine/stimulants. Is low dose bupropion a valid route to take?

    Do you have a recommendation for starting dose and whether I should try the SR or XL?
    You should experiment with the dose and see what works for you. I had a failed run with bupropion in the past, which I now attribute to not getting past 150mgs. a day. The side effects I experienced on 300mgs. were initially pretty rough, but subsided pretty quickly and the mood and motivation benefits came on fast. I now am able to tolerate 2 cups of coffee in the morning and some tea in the afternoons just fine.

    I'm currently burning through some samples of SR that I had, but once I'm through I'm planning on switching over to the XL formulation if only for the convenience of once a day dosing.

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    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdog527 View Post
    I'm currently burning through some samples of SR that I had, but once I'm through I'm planning on switching over to the XL formulation if only for the convenience of once a day dosing.
    I expect pooping out, merely on the basis of the change from one formulation to the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kassem23 View Post
    I expect pooping out, merely on the basis of the change from one formulation to the other.

    Why would that cause it to become ineffective?

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    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdog527 View Post
    Why would that cause it to become ineffective?
    I am merely making an assumption based on several anecdotal reports of such phenomenon. It seems that there is a significant difference between the XL and IR version, but also of the generic and the brand-name XL-formulations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kassem23 View Post
    I am merely making an assumption based on several anecdotal reports of such phenomenon. It seems that there is a significant difference between the XL and IR version, but also of the generic and the brand-name XL-formulations.
    I'm taking SR, not IR. I still don't see how changing the release rate from once a day to twice a day would cause it to become ineffective. If anything I would think it would be better since it would help eliminate the peak and valley of effect that I currently get with the SR.

    The brand vs. generic formulation does concern me quite a bit. So much so that I'm presently trying to formulate what to say to my doctor so that I can make sure she writes for the brand only when I go for a legit script. I've read enough anecdotal reports on the net to dissuade me from even bothering to use the generics.

  19. #18
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdog527 View Post
    The brand vs. generic formulation does concern me quite a bit. So much so that I'm presently trying to formulate what to say to my doctor so that I can make sure she writes for the brand only when I go for a legit script. I've read enough anecdotal reports on the net to dissuade me from even bothering to use the generics.
    This was what I meant. The IR vs. XL is personal preference, mostly. My hesitation was in regards to changing from brand-name bupropion to generic.

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    Yeah, that is currently a considerable source of anxiety for me. It appears the efficacy of the generic is pretty poor. I read somewhere that the FDA is currently conducting a trial to test the hypothesis out.

  21. #20
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdog527 View Post
    Yeah, that is currently a considerable source of anxiety for me. It appears the efficacy of the generic is pretty poor. I read somewhere that the FDA is currently conducting a trial to test the hypothesis out.
    Interesting. You can always order the actual brand online.

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