Depression help needed

[Brian56]

A person on curezone suggested I post my issues here also because he said some of you may be familiar with my particular type of history and/or the supps I am currently taking.

I was wondering if anyone could possibly answer somequestions I have. Just a bit of background. 55 year old male, 5'8" 195 lbswith some decent muscle mass from lifting. Need to drop about 10-15 lbs. I suffer from a lethargic depression. I'm notlow seretonin...I'm low Dopamine/NE. Stimulant type substances help me the bestfor my depression. I have no anxiety andhave no sleep issues. Don't have a problem getting out of bed every morning butthe depression lives on. I am also lowcortisol but not to a great degree. I'm not currently on anyantidepressant. Years ago I tried plentyand Wellbutrin seemed to help the best. I don't want to do the antidepressant route again. Tried in the pastSAM-e, and SJW with no real effect. Alsodid DLPA and L-Tyrosine before..helped some but didn't want to do long termbecause of down regulation issues and having to take either L-Tryptophan or 5HTPat night along with it. Both of these make me feel worse. Many years ago Iintentionally sleep deprived myself and it DID "lift" mydepression..albeit only temporarily until I fell back into regular sleepingpatterns and my depression returned. Obviously sleep deprivation is not a longer term solution. We need our sleep. Actually the past 2 yearsit seems I also have SAD. Didn't noticeit was a problem before until it started a couple years ago. This year Inoticed it happening only a few days after we turned the clocks back..so I'mthinking SAD is also an issue.
Currently these are the supps I'm doing -
Multi Vit/Mineral liquid
ACV with baking soda
Borax
Malic acid 2400-3200mg per day and does seem to give me abit more energy and seems to sustain more energy when I workout.
Rhodiola <Siberian> from New Chapter. 2 caps 300mg each per day.
Methylene Blue - diluted properly according to earthclinicinstructions.
Vit C- 2000mg's per day that I get taking it in water withmy MB
I tried MB on it's own and Rhodiola on it's own before. Each helped some but still no antidepressanteffect from either so I decided to try together which I am doing now. I amseeing "somewhat" of a combined effect but I feel like I need to"push it" higher..not with the Rhodiola but with the MB. Actually Ihave gotten an added effect with the Rhodiola with losing 5 pounds in just a littleunder 2 weeks. Dropping another 10-15 would be ideal for me. Currently I haveworked myself up to 16 drops of MB in the morning and 12 drops no later thanmid-afteroon. I suffer no adverseeffects from this kind of dosage with no "being wired" effects and noeffect from keeping me from sleeping. It might be a very high dose for othersbut it doesn't seem so for me. These aremy questions....
1) Does anyone knowif I am getting any MAOI effects from the MB at the 16 drops dosage? And ifnot..how high would I have to push those drops to get desired MAOI effects andif so, would it be safe to do so? Takingalso into account the other supps I am taking.
2) Currently I am cycled off of licorice root extract. This does seem to help me some with keepingcortisol in my system longer. Would itbe better to add this into my stack of MB and Rhodiola for an added effectrather than going higher on the MB drops, and..is licorice root extract evensafe to take with MB and Rhodiola? Ialso have tried Rehmannia before because I heard it also might have the sameeffects as LRE but the LRE seemed to do better for me but I do know I need tocycle on and off with it.
3) OR can anyonesuggest maybe adding something else other than the LRE to my stack of MB and Rhodiola?
I don't know if any of you have taken any of these combo'sto even comment on it but I'm just throwing it out there to see if any of youhave any comments on this.
One last thing. I amalso doing a light box in case SAD is playing a big part in this. It is a goLITE model Philips brand and onlymaybe 7" wide by 7" tall. Doesanyone know if this is a strong enough unit for me or do I maybe need more ofan "industrial strength" model? Atleast it is small enough that I canput it next to my computer when I hop on it in the morning.

I will also add because I was asked this about my Vit D levels. Last time I had them tested was about 3 years ago and at that time I was taking Vit D3 and I tested on the high end of the range..around 80 and still had my depression at that time. I'm thinking Vit D is not an issue with me..although it would not hurt to have it tested again. Currently I am not taking Vit D3. That's all I got. Thanks for listening.
Brian

[adreno]

The supplements don't have much of a kick to them. I would try a NRI, like reboxetine, or maybe even milnacipran (mildly serotonergic SNRI).

[Psych0]

OT: Was the atomoxetine or reboxetine with nmda-antagnosist proprieties ?

[NeuralFrequency]

OT: Was the atomoxetine or reboxetine with nmda-antagnosist proprieties ?

Atomoxetine acts as an NMDA receptor blocker in clinically relevant concentrations. (PMID:20423340)

[tangozero]

If wellbutrin helped in the past - what made you stop that?

[SRDMD]

There is a complex bidirectional relationship between sleep disorders and mood disorders. Although you feel like you have no sleep issues, your admission that sleep deprivation relieved your symptoms suggests strongly that sleep is the issue. I do a lot of research on sleep and breathing disorders, and in my opinion ALL sleep disorders are really breathing disorders, but we'll start with the sleep.

I'm glad to hear you pop right out of bed, I wonder if anyone has asked you to analyze your sleep a little more deeply. Do you wake up 3 to 4 hours before your alarm? Does your mind ever race when you lay down? Do you wake up to pee at any time during the night? Has anyone reported hearing you snore or even breathe deeply during the night? Do you have vivid dreams very often? Do you have restless legs, or do you toss and turn? Do you sleep extremely deeply so that you can't be woken up at night or feel drugged when you do? Or in contrast, do you sleep extremely lightly? Do you have nightmares often? Do you dream at all?

My guess is that your REM sleep is disturbed or has an increased latency. All drugs will adversely affect your sleep architecture as well. REM is the most important sleep for learning and memory, but also growth and repair and basically everything. In REM sleep, respiration is less tightly controlled, and so people have the most respiratory disturbances during REM sleep. All your muscles are paralyzed except the diaphragm, so if you usually use accessory muscles of respiration like the scalenes or intercostals then breathing will be extremely difficult and REM sleep will be interrupted. It is often completely absent in sleep apnea, for example.
All these issues are due to hyperventilation anyway, so you should do some research on Buteyko if you haven't already.

[Flaw]

Have you tried p5p? B-6 is involved in the production of serotonin, Dopamine and NE. You got a 50/50 chance that it may make you tired (by producing serotonin) or improve your mood and energy by increasing Dopamine and NE. It might be worth a shot.

[Brian56]

If wellbutrin helped in the past - what made you stop that?

It helped moreso than others I tried but it really did not lift my depression like the sleep deprivation lifted it so that's why I stopped it thinking that there might be another way to attack the problem. Plus the fact right now I have no insurance even if I wanted to give it another go.

[Brian56]

There is a complex bidirectional relationship between sleep disorders and mood disorders. Although you feel like you have no sleep issues, your admission that sleep deprivation relieved your symptoms suggests strongly that sleep is the issue. I do a lot of research on sleep and breathing disorders, and in my opinion ALL sleep disorders are really breathing disorders, but we'll start with the sleep.

I'm glad to hear you pop right out of bed, I wonder if anyone has asked you to analyze your sleep a little more deeply. Do you wake up 3 to 4 hours before your alarm? Does your mind ever race when you lay down? Do you wake up to pee at any time during the night? Has anyone reported hearing you snore or even breathe deeply during the night? Do you have vivid dreams very often? Do you have restless legs, or do you toss and turn? Do you sleep extremely deeply so that you can't be woken up at night or feel drugged when you do? Or in contrast, do you sleep extremely lightly? Do you have nightmares often? Do you dream at all?

My guess is that your REM sleep is disturbed or has an increased latency. All drugs will adversely affect your sleep architecture as well. REM is the most important sleep for learning and memory, but also growth and repair and basically everything. In REM sleep, respiration is less tightly controlled, and so people have the most respiratory disturbances during REM sleep. All your muscles are paralyzed except the diaphragm, so if you usually use accessory muscles of respiration like the scalenes or intercostals then breathing will be extremely difficult and REM sleep will be interrupted. It is often completely absent in sleep apnea, for example.
All these issues are due to hyperventilation anyway, so you should do some research on Buteyko if you haven't already.

I'll answer your questions.....

On a rare occasion I may wake up 3 to 4 hours before my alarm but typically sleep thru the night.
My mind never races when I lay down.
Only on a rare occasion will I wake up to pee during the night.
Yes I've been known to snore but no one has mentioned to me about breathing deeply.
Yes I can have vivid dreams but I don't know if they are at the degree that you might be asking about.
I do not have restless legs and I may toss and turn a bit before I eventually fall asleep but I wouldn't say I am that fidgety with it and it usually does not take me long before I fall asleep.
If I had to guess I'd say I am somewhere in between sleeping extremely deeply and extremely lightly.
I do not have nightmares.
Yes I dream often. Most times I can remember when I wake up what I was dreaming about.

Maybe I can explain more the symptoms I went thru when I sleep deprived myself. The more I sleep deprived myself <on subsequent nights> the more "wired" I got and the more wired I got I couldn't fall asleep because of that. BUT it got to a point where eventually that lifted my depression. It's like everything kicked in. Physical feeling of depression gone. There was finally air back in my balloon so to speak. Fog lifted. Breathing became more deep. A sense of serenity and calm overwhelmed me. I felt "normal" again. Am I to assume correctly that my dopamine/NE raised itself from such a low state that everything kicked in and balanced itself? I don't know..just a guess here. I am sure it is more complex than this.

I will also add, and failed to do so in my original post, that years ago I was diagnosed as only being "borderline" ADD <not ADHD> but the doc didn't think it was a big issue with me. Nevertheless he did put me on some Ritalin and felt it could help with my depression. It did help me and that is why I know stim substances help me. It got to a point where I needed higher dosages to have the same effect so I ditched it. I did not want to become a stim junkie. Also, in case anyone is wondering, I am not bi-polar nor am I manic depressive.

[Brian56]

Have you tried p5p? B-6 is involved in the production of serotonin, Dopamine and NE. You got a 50/50 chance that it may make you tired (by producing serotonin) or improve your mood and energy by increasing Dopamine and NE. It might be worth a shot.

Yes I have tried p5p. Was taking that along with Vit C when I took either my DLPA or Tyrosine. Also later on took p5p on it's own. I concluded that p5p <B-6> was not a huge issue for me.

[Brian56]

There is a complex bidirectional relationship between sleep disorders and mood disorders. Although you feel like you have no sleep issues, your admission that sleep deprivation relieved your symptoms suggests strongly that sleep is the issue. I do a lot of research on sleep and breathing disorders, and in my opinion ALL sleep disorders are really breathing disorders, but we'll start with the sleep.

I'm glad to hear you pop right out of bed, I wonder if anyone has asked you to analyze your sleep a little more deeply. Do you wake up 3 to 4 hours before your alarm? Does your mind ever race when you lay down? Do you wake up to pee at any time during the night? Has anyone reported hearing you snore or even breathe deeply during the night? Do you have vivid dreams very often? Do you have restless legs, or do you toss and turn? Do you sleep extremely deeply so that you can't be woken up at night or feel drugged when you do? Or in contrast, do you sleep extremely lightly? Do you have nightmares often? Do you dream at all?

My guess is that your REM sleep is disturbed or has an increased latency. All drugs will adversely affect your sleep architecture as well. REM is the most important sleep for learning and memory, but also growth and repair and basically everything. In REM sleep, respiration is less tightly controlled, and so people have the most respiratory disturbances during REM sleep. All your muscles are paralyzed except the diaphragm, so if you usually use accessory muscles of respiration like the scalenes or intercostals then breathing will be extremely difficult and REM sleep will be interrupted. It is often completely absent in sleep apnea, for example.
All these issues are due to hyperventilation anyway, so you should do some research on Buteyko if you haven't already.

Do you think it might possibly also be a circadian rhythm issue or maybe the CR is related to the sleep/breathing issue you refer to? I don't doubt for one second that my breathing may atleast play a part in this. My breathing is more shallow..although I would suspect that most if not all people that have depression have shallow breathing. I do know for a fact that when my depression lifted from sleep deprivation there was very much a noticeable difference in my breathing. It was more deep and relaxed. I have never heard of Buteyko but I will do some reading up on it.

[Flaw]

Do you have asthma? Sinusitis?

A sleep study would be good to rule out apnea or any other issues.

[Brian56]

Do you have asthma? Sinusitis?

A sleep study would be good to rule out apnea or any other issues.

I have neither of these conditions.

[Brian56]

I have neither of these conditions.

Sorry I also should have added to my above post and I don't know if this is a major deal..but for the longest time that I can remember...my right nostril feels like it's only open 50% compared to my left nostril..but I never thought it was a serious enough issue and it's not like because of it I gasp for air. Maybe atleast to some degree it is effecting not getting enough oxygen intake?

[SRDMD]

The plugged nostril is indicative of a breathing issue. Read up on Buteyko and it addresses that specifically. Normal Breathing is the name of a website with lots of info. It has nose clearing exercises as well that you can do. The Buteyko method is based on the assumption that most problems are caused by hyperventilation. Good luck!

[Brian56]

The plugged nostril is indicative of a breathing issue. Read up on Buteyko and it addresses that specifically. Normal Breathing is the name of a website with lots of info. It has nose clearing exercises as well that you can do. The Buteyko method is based on the assumption that most problems are caused by hyperventilation. Good luck!

Thank you very much for your advice and suggestion of trying out Buteyko and I am definitely going to give it a whirl. If I may ask you a couple more questions. Is it simply that my blocked nasal passage is causing me to hyperventilate or can also hyperventilation cause your nasal passages to get blocked or maybe a combination of both? Also, could using a neti pot in addition to doing Buteyko give me any added benefit? I've never used a neti pot before but I do know the instructions on how to use it.

[SRDMD]

The hyperventilation itself is causing the blocked nostril. It's counterintuitive, but try the exercises and you'll see what I mean. You will feel your nose open up, it's an interesting feeling. When I was sick it was extremely frustrating because I could unblock my nostrils easily by controlling my breathing, but I would start hyperventilating again immediately and be stuffed again. It was very clear in my case that the breathing was the problem, but I couldn't control it. Hyperventilation is normal when you are sick. I love my neti pot when I'm sick. I don't think it would be that beneficial with your non-allergic vasomotor rhinitis (or whatever they are calling congestion that they can't attribute to any cause these days). Try the exercises and see. Don't be discouraged if you can't get it unplugged the first time, it takes practice to understand the feeling of reducing your breath. Keep your diaphragm completely relaxed.

[Sanction]

Thank you very much for your advice and suggestion of trying out Buteyko and I am definitely going to give it a whirl.

If Buteyko doesn't help, don't neglect other avenues of exploration, such as:
- psychological insight
- social relationships
- diet
- underlying medical conditions
- "spirituality"
- different medication
- etc

[Brian56]

The hyperventilation itself is causing the blocked nostril. It's counterintuitive, but try the exercises and you'll see what I mean. You will feel your nose open up, it's an interesting feeling. When I was sick it was extremely frustrating because I could unblock my nostrils easily by controlling my breathing, but I would start hyperventilating again immediately and be stuffed again. It was very clear in my case that the breathing was the problem, but I couldn't control it. Hyperventilation is normal when you are sick. I love my neti pot when I'm sick. I don't think it would be that beneficial with your non-allergic vasomotor rhinitis (or whatever they are calling congestion that they can't attribute to any cause these days). Try the exercises and see. Don't be discouraged if you can't get it unplugged the first time, it takes practice to understand the feeling of reducing your breath. Keep your diaphragm completely relaxed.

Your response above and in particular your response of..."The hyperventilation itself is causing the blocked nostril" has prompted me to ask you another question. I do appreciate your time for I have also noticed you have spent some time posting on other threads. If hyperventilating is actually the cause of my blocked nostril...and from studies...90% of people hyperventilate...Am I to assume that 90% of people, maybe to a lesser degree than me, have some blockage in their nostrils but yet may not be aware of it? OR could blocked nostrils just be one symptom of it and there are other people who have no blockage in their nasal passages but yet still hyperventilate?

[SRDMD]

Yes, haha, I seem to have a recurring theme in my posts, and unfortunately not very many people are familiar with it. But when we're discussing sleep, I cannot avoid the subject of improper respiration, because that's when it's most likely to occur.

The statement "90% of people hyperventilate" is part of Buteyko's theory and is based on his definition of hyperventilation. Like I said, the medical norm is continually changing and really there is no agreed upon norm in the medical community for minute ventilation and tidal volume. You can be seemingly symptom free and hyperventilate according to Buteyko. However, there is lots of data on the respiration of sick people, and Buteyko began his career by studying respiration patterns of dying people and defining proper respiration from there.

Hyperventilation is tied into sympathetic activity: sympathetic activity causes hyperventilation, and hyperventilation activates the sympathetic nervous system. This leads to a whole discussion on stress and sympathetic activation, etc. etc. We have control of our respiration during the day, and can therefore manipulate our sympathetic response even when stressors occur.

Congestion (not from infection) is just one symptom. Symptoms of improper sympathetic activation (stress) are the same as those due to hyperventilation (sleep problems, bowel problems, circulation problems, skin problems, etc, etc.) The good old "rest and digest" parasympathetic nervous system is undermined. The presence/degree of nasal congestion is largely determined by each individual's unique nasal passages and sinuses and the degree of hyperventilation. (And if during development the person was a mouth breather, the nasal passages and sinuses will be deficient, making nasal breathing extremely hard and congestion more likely. Double whammy.) Congestion is extremely common at night. Many people wake up with blocked nasal passages but have no problems during the day.

The theory behind nasal congestion is that it's actually a reflex to avoid loss of CO2. Therefore, increasing CO2 decreases congestion. CO2 causes potent vasodilation and bronchiole relaxation.

I am not an expert in the method and practice of the Buteyko technique, (i.e. reduced breathing, CPs, etc) but I've done a lot of research on the physiology behind the theory. I hope that answers some of your questions.