User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 45
  1. #1
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Messin' with insulin

    As we manipulate insulin through various dietary techniques, is there any risk of doing long term damage to insulin sensitivity?

    I'm thinking of eating low carb all day long then bombarding one's self with simple sugars and dextrose around workout time.

    And, similarly, if you're bulking and enjoying a diet of most/all high GI carbs? Gotta be bad, right?

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No one?

    I guess my biggest concern is bombarding myself with ~225g low GI carbs everyday... and all around the time I work out/for breakfast, no less.

  3. #3
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    bump?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,452
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Insulin resistance is a response to chronic elevation. As far as metabolic syndrome, I don't think we can say for sure at this point.
    Resident Badger
    Pick your poison and enjoy. John Berardi Joe DeFranco Kelly Baggett
    Metabolic Alchemy
    "There isn't guess work in anatomy, physiology, and kinesiology. It's called science." - Brett Hobel
    Jake's log -visit and criticize.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,397
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hey J. It's hard to say. Insulin resistance doesn't usually show up in those without a metabolic syndrome of some kind. I would imagine that someone who ate clean carb sources and kept in shape would probably avoid the pitfalls associated with insulin resistance.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    439
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GaWd View Post
    someone who ate clean carb sources and kept in shape would probably avoid the pitfalls associated with insulin resistance.
    I don't know what clean carbs are - I'd just stay away from too much fructose. (Though, the more you deplete your liver glycogen stores, the less trouble fructose becomes) (also, sugar=bad, fruit=just dandy)

    And just for the record: Insulin resistence does show up in healthy people, especially if they fast or do low carb. It's physiological insulin resistance and spares glucose for your brain, while the rest of your body runs on fat. Thats why you can get abysmal bloog sugar readings if you eat a high carb meal after having been low carb for some time.

  7. Likes physicus007 liked this post
  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,397
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Niflheim View Post
    I don't know what clean carbs are - I'd just stay away from too much fructose. (Though, the more you deplete your liver glycogen stores, the less trouble fructose becomes) (also, sugar=bad, fruit=just dandy)

    And just for the record: Insulin resistence does show up in healthy people, especially if they fast or do low carb. It's physiological insulin resistance and spares glucose for your brain, while the rest of your body runs on fat. Thats why you can get abysmal bloog sugar readings if you eat a high carb meal after having been low carb for some time.

    Exactly what you said: Instead is using processed sugars, consume unprocessed sources of carbs. Pretty "clean" no?

  9. #8
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback, folks.

    It's not insulin resistance, necessarily, but poor insulin sensitivity, too.

    I guess I'm looking for downsides to eating low/no carbs most of the day, then slamming 150G of dextrose carbs in the 2 hour window that is my pre/during/post-workout times.

  10. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    439
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GaWd View Post
    Exactly what you said: Instead is using processed sugars, consume unprocessed sources of carbs. Pretty "clean" no?
    But, but, if I, for example, process brown rice, it becomes white rice, and thus cleaner, no? Unprocessed = clean is a little confusing for me.

  11. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,397
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm not in the mood to be semantic.

    Don't eat straight sugar, HFCS, other sugars. Rices, other grains (some would say non-wheat). That was what I intended and I hope was clear enough for most.

  12. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,726
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by krazyj View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, folks.

    It's not insulin resistance, necessarily, but poor insulin sensitivity, too.

    I guess I'm looking for downsides to eating low/no carbs most of the day, then slamming 150G of dextrose carbs in the 2 hour window that is my pre/during/post-workout times.
    Nifheim did already make the (to my mind) most important remark in this regards: Low carbing will induce a physiologically healthy reduction in insulin sensitivity, without which you would drop as a result of low blood sugar too easily (cf. The Marathon Paradox). That being said slamming the 150g of dextrose will have your blood sugar levels explode and does not make ANY sense unless you were in a rush to refill glycogen, because you had your first competition at 9am and your second at 12pm... on a related note, I don't believe it would make sense even if you were not low-carbing
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
    SuppVersity @ SuppVersity.blogspot.com

    As ProfDrAndro, I am also one of the heads behind

    BodyRX Radio @ www.bodyRXRadio.com
    and a frequent guest at Carl Lenore's
    SuperHumanRadio @ www.superhumanradio.com

  13. #12
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    That being said slamming the 150g of dextrose will have your blood sugar levels explode and does not make ANY sense unless you were in a rush to refill glycogen
    Well, I was structuring my macro consumption around the old adage of 'consume your fast carbs around workout time'. Basically, I took it to the extreme and planned to consume virtually no carbs throughout the day and then my day's worth of carbs around my workouts (and some when I get up to get my blood sugar up a bit for energy). Check out my diet's macro breakdown here: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/s...ht=#post619925

  14. #13
    Senior Member Josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The most civil realm of HM ER II
    Posts
    4,284
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by krazyj View Post
    As we manipulate insulin through various dietary techniques, is there any risk of doing long term damage to insulin sensitivity?
    I'm thinking of eating low carb all day long then bombarding one's self with simple sugars and dextrose around workout time.
    And, similarly, if you're bulking and enjoying a diet of most/all high GI carbs? Gotta be bad, right?
    Any thoughts?
    Lots of simple sugars all the time is not good IMO wrt metabolic syndrome & VAT.
    High II/GI carbs around the workout is not a problem for insulin sensitivity [n=1] if your body is working hard at the same time.

    J
    Stop animal testing on dogs!

    Anti-vivisectionists are a more reliable model.


  15. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,726
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Lots of simple sugars all the time is not good IMO wrt metabolic syndrome & VAT.
    High II/GI carbs around the workout is not a problem for insulin sensitivity [n=1] if your body is working hard at the same time.

    J
    while it may not be a problem, I still don't see how you would benefit from 150g dextrose over a) 20g + slower carbs after the shake or b) slower carbs to begin with... I mean even a 2:1 glucose fructose mix has been shown to restore glycogen at least as effective as all that in glucose

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Oct;40(10):1789-94.
    Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis with combined glucose and fructose ingestion.
    Wallis GA, Hulston CJ, Mann CH, Roper HP, Tipton KD, Jeukendrup AE.
    Source

    School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, UK.
    Abstract
    PURPOSE:

    To evaluate the efficacy of using combined glucose and fructose (GF) ingestion as a means to stimulate short-term (4 h) postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis compared to glucose only (G).
    METHODS:

    On two separate occasions, six endurance-trained men performed an exhaustive glycogen-depleting exercise bout followed by a 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsy samples were obtained from the vastus lateralis muscle at 0, 1, and 4 h after exercise. Subjects ingested carbohydrate solutions containing G (90 g x h(-1)) or GF (G = 60 g x h(-1); F = 30 g x h(-1)) commencing immediately after exercise and every 30 min thereafter.
    RESULTS:

    Immediate postexercise muscle glycogen concentrations were similar in both trials (G = 128 +/- 25 mmol x kg(-1) dry muscle (dm) vs GF = 112 +/- 16 mmol x kg(-1) dm; P > 0.05). Total glycogen storage during the 4-h recovery period was 176 +/- 33 and 155 +/- 31 mmol x kg(-1) dm for G and GF, respectively (G vs GF, P > 0.05). Hence, mean muscle glycogen synthesis rates during the 4-h recovery period did not differ between the two conditions (G = 44 +/- 8 mmol x kg(-1) dm x h(-1) vs GF = 39 +/- 8 mmol x kg(-1) dm x h(-1), P > 0.05). Plasma glucose and serum insulin responses during the recovery period were similar in both conditions, although plasma lactate concentrations were significantly elevated during GF compared to G (by approximately 0.8 mmol x L(-1), P < 0.05).
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Glucose and glucose/fructose (2:1 ratio) solutions, ingested at a rate of 90 g x h(-1), are equally effective at restoring muscle glycogen in exercised muscles during the recovery from exhaustive exercise.

    PMID:
    18799989
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
    SuppVersity @ SuppVersity.blogspot.com

    As ProfDrAndro, I am also one of the heads behind

    BodyRX Radio @ www.bodyRXRadio.com
    and a frequent guest at Carl Lenore's
    SuperHumanRadio @ www.superhumanradio.com

  16. #15
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,385
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What daily carb distribution would you suggest, then?

  17. #16
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dimension Unknown
    Posts
    2,235
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by krazyj View Post
    What daily carb distribution would you suggest, then?
    Unrelated question, krazyj. May I ask if you're still on stimulants and how that is going for you? If I remember correctly, last time you were on Vyvanse. Any particular notes on Vyvanse vs. Adderall XR, Dexedrine IR, Adderall IR, etc? Moreover, I remember back in the day that you compiled the studies and wrote the theoretical reasoning behind the memantine/amphetamine combination. Any reason you're not using the combination? (I assume you're not.)

    Thanks in advance.

  18. #17
    Senior Member Josh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The most civil realm of HM ER II
    Posts
    4,284
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    while it may not be a problem, I still don't see how you would benefit from 150g dextrose over ...
    I agree. I would not be taking that much sugar in one hit.

    J
    Stop animal testing on dogs!

    Anti-vivisectionists are a more reliable model.


  19. #18
    Member FurorGermanicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    74
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Further more on this behalf:

    Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.

    Abstract
    The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (SD 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (SD 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.
    PMID: 10664095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  20. #19
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,452
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Now you have to show that the speed of resynthesis actually matters.
    Resident Badger
    Pick your poison and enjoy. John Berardi Joe DeFranco Kelly Baggett
    Metabolic Alchemy
    "There isn't guess work in anatomy, physiology, and kinesiology. It's called science." - Brett Hobel
    Jake's log -visit and criticize.

  21. Likes Josh liked this post
  22. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,726
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    Now you have to show that the speed of resynthesis actually matters.
    exactly my point. I am not against carbs post workout and even think that especially with the ingestion of whey protein and the subsequent hyperinsulinemia you better get in some carbs to avoid that major parts of your protein end up in the glyconeogenic pathway (which would precipitate to increases in catecholamines / cortisol), but in essence you can give a damn about how FAST the glycogen in the muscle is going to be restored, unless you want to train again in 2h
    visit my nutrition & exercise science blog!
    SuppVersity @ SuppVersity.blogspot.com

    As ProfDrAndro, I am also one of the heads behind

    BodyRX Radio @ www.bodyRXRadio.com
    and a frequent guest at Carl Lenore's
    SuperHumanRadio @ www.superhumanradio.com

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Insulin
    By cribbo in forum Advanced Hypothesis, Theory & Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: January 3rd, 2011, 02:03 PM
  2. Body Composition, Insulin Receptor Competition, and Insulin Resistance
    By Heavy_Lifter85 in forum General Training and Bodybuilding
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 24th, 2009, 05:57 PM
  3. Insulin
    By captainbicept in forum Anabolic Steroids, Prohormones & Other Performance Enhancers
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 16th, 2008, 02:36 AM
  4. Insulin Use
    By tylerk in forum Advanced Hypothesis, Theory & Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: July 10th, 2004, 03:48 AM
  5. insulin and t3
    By gundam675 in forum Anabolic Steroids, Prohormones & Other Performance Enhancers
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: February 2nd, 2004, 02:04 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •