The C Norris tastey Superfood thread

[C Norris]

I am very pleased with my self. I learnt this today: PhosphatidylSerine | Health for Brains



Lots of good Phosphatidyl-Serine in mackerel fish, nearly half a gram per serving of 100g! and PLUS(!!!!) its also the natural DHA/AA fatty acid enriched type of PS.

With this discovery, I went on a mission - get some fresh, not tinned mackerel, and sneak it back home to cook. One problem, the smell. Housemates dont like it. So I had to invent away of cooking it that wasn't smelly. I got fresh packs of smoked mackerel, they are way better than tinned, but I had a plan. first I had the idea of instead of grilling it, which sprays oil all over your grill, I'd put into a dish and cover it with baked beans from the jar, and then sprinkle onion powder (dead cheap) and paprika and cayenne pepper. Covered with a well fitting lid, voila! no smell!!!

Cooked it for 15-20 minutes.

RESULTS - AWESOME. No smell, lovely dish.

Next superfood idea - crispy onion rings cooked in palm oil with fresh cabbage. I think that could work, but making them is a beatch from experience - any tips?

[methodice]

Sounds tasty. Does anyone know much about PS supplementation and cortisol rebound?

[C Norris]

Can't say I do, but not sure there is an issue there. There seems to be lots of benefits maybe even wrt dopamine in the CNS - sounds like a good enough reason for me to cook this again. Chip suggested that PS is good for libido - its only one day but I have to say I do feel better since I cooked this dish.

[C Norris]

Amazed at ignorance: phosphatidylserine, cortisol and dopamine

"Mean peak cortisol concentrations and area under the curve (AUC) were lower following PS (39 ± 1% and 35 ± 0%, respectively) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS increased AUC for testosterone to cortisol ratio (184 ± 5%) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS and placebo supplementation had no effect on lactate or growth hormone levels."

PS, Omega 3 and dopamine: http://www.sono.org.br/pdf/2004%20Pe...0Pharmacol.pdf

Abstract
The present study investigated the effects of intranigral MPTP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine) infusion on rats treated with phosphatidylserine and evaluated in two memory tasks and on striatal dopamine levels. The results indicated that MPTP produced a
significant decrease in the avoidance number in comparison to sham-operated and non-operated rats submitted to a two-way avoidance task.
MPTP-lesioned rats exhibited an increase in the latencies to find the platform in cued version of the water maze in comparison to shamoperated and non-operated animals. The tested toxin reduced striatal dopamine levels in comparison to sham-operated and non-operated groups. A final surprising result was that phosphatidylserine was unable to reverse the cognitive deficits produced by MPTP or the reduction of striatal dopamine levels. In conclusion, the data suggest that MPTP is a good model to study the early impairment associated with Parkinson’s disease and phosphatidylserine did not improve the memory impairment induced by MPTP.
D 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

Dietary Fish Oil Affects Monoaminergic Neurotransmission and Behavior in Rats

Dietary Fish Oil Affects Monoaminergic Neurotransmission and Behavior in Rats1,2

We studied the effects of a fish oil enriched diet on fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes and on several neurochemical and behavioral variables of monoaminergic function in rats. The frontal cortex, striatum, hippocampus and cerebellum were studied in rats fed fish oil (FPO, 50% salmon oil + 50% palm oil), which provided an (n-6)/(n-3) polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) ratio of 0.14 versus 6.19 in controls fed a diet containing a mixture of African peanut oil and rapeseed oil. In the FPO group compared to the control group, the major modifications in fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes included the following: higher levels in 22:6(n-3), lower levels in 20:4(n-6) and a significantly greater proportion of phosphatidylserine. Dopamine levels were 40% greater in the frontal cortex of rats fed FPO than from those fed the control diet. In this cerebral region there was also a reduction in monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) activity and greater binding to dopamine D2 receptors. By contrast, a lower binding to dopamine D2 receptors (−7%) was observed in the striatum. Ambulatory activity was also reduced in FPO-fed rats, possibly related to observed changes in striatal dopaminergic receptors. This suggested that the level of (n-6) PUFA, which was considerably lower in the FPO diet than in the control diet, could act on locomotion through an effect on striatal dopaminergic function, whereas the high level of (n-3) PUFA could act on cortical dopaminergic function

Note, the effects of fish oil+ PS wont be entirely additive, since part of the action of fish oil is partly down to increasing PS levels in the membrane, which is partly (but only partly) dependent on DHA supply. There appears additional effects of O3+PS though, through supply of Serine .

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/3/245.pdf

PS dosing in aged rats increases dopamine release from the striatum and stimulates acetylcholine release from the cerebral cortex, in addition to preventing age-induced loss of dendritic spines in the hippocampal pyramidal neurons and atrophy of cholinergic cells in the basal forebrain.7
Human studies using PET scanning to investigate brain glucose utilization in Alzheimer’s patients noted increases in glucose utilization in PS-supplemented patients, especially in the temporo-parietal areas, which are specifically affected by Alzheimer’s disease (AD).8-11
PS may also protect cells from damage produced by free radicals. A significant decrease in damage to cultured human fibroblasts from the enzymatic oxidation of acetaldehyde by xanthine oxidase was noted in
cultures pre-treated with PS.12

This suggests PS may reduce some of the effects of reactive aldehydes that generate from Omega 3, especially oxidised Omega 3. I would contend that you would also want to supplement lipoic acid or NAC to assist in the function of O3 loading.

The second study I posted showed that PS did not do anything in the case of stopping damage by MTPT induced parkinsons like damage.

However, we may be able to block that, or rather protect dopaminergic neurons from toxicity, by adding to our diets certain polyphenols and the dietary substance L-SMLC (S-methyl-L-cysteine), found in turnips, cabbages and sprouts, which is not by a thiol mechanism and therefore should be additive or even synnergistic with maintaining glutathione/lipoic acid pools.

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/27/47/12808.full.pdf

Polyphenols:

Parkinson's disease and novel neuroprotective strategies

...We have demonstrated that certain flavonoids not only cross the blood brain barrier, but are concentrated by certain brain structures well above peripheral tissue levels. Using the 6-OHDA model of PD we have demonstrated that a number of flavonoids are neuroprotectory.

1. Datla KP, Christidou MA, Widmer WW, Rooprai HK and Dexter DT. “Tissue distribution and neuroprotective effects of citrus flavonoid tangeretin in a rat model of Parkinson’s disease”. NeuroReport (2001) 12; 3871-3878.
2. Datla KP, Blunt S and Dexter DT. Chronic L-DOPA administration is not toxic to the remaining dopaminergic nigrostriatal neurons, but instead may promote their functional recovery, in rats with partial 6-OHDA or FeCl3 nigrostriatal lesions. Movement Dis. (2001) 16; 424-434.
3. Murray HE, Pillai AV, McArthur SR, Razvi N, Datla KP, Dexter DT & Gillies GE. “Dose- and sex-dependent effects of the neurotoxin 6-hydroxydopamine on the nigrostriatal dopaminergic pathway of adult rats: differential actions of estrogen in males and females”.Neuroscience. 2003;116(1):213-222.
4. Datla KP, Murray H, Gillies GE and Dexter DT. “Differences in dopaminergic neuroprotective effects of estrogen during estrous cycle. Neuroreport. 2003 14(1):47-50.
5. Graeber MB; Dexter D; Pearce RK; Reynolds R; "" Neuropathol Appl Neurobiol (2003) 29 (5) 514-5.
6. Datla KP, Bennett RD, Zbarsky V, Ke B, Liang Y, Bahorun HT, Aruoma OI & Dexter DT. “ The antioxidant drink “effective microorganism-x (EM-X)” pre-treatment attenuates the loss of nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons in a 6-hydroxydopamine lesion model of Parkinson’s disease”. J. Pharma. & Pharmacol. 2004. 56: 649-654.

Flavonoids may lower risk of Parkinson's from medicineworld.org

7,8-dihydroxyflavone -

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/n...tml#post580731

Nutrition Journal | Full text | High cocoa polyphenol rich chocolate may reduce the burden of the symptoms in chronic fatigue syndrome
High cocoa polyphenol rich chocolate may reduce the burden of the symptoms in chronic fatigue syndrome

Tangeritin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IUPAC name[hide]
5,6,7,8-tetramethoxy-2-(4-methoxyphenyl)-4H-1-benzopyran-4-one


Nunzi MG, Milan F, Guidolin D, et al. Effects of phosphatidylserine administration of aged-related structural changes in the rat hippocampus and septal complex. Pharmacopsychiatry 1989;22:S125-S128.

[Ex Dubio]

Amazed at ignorance: phosphatidylserine, cortisol and dopamine

"Mean peak cortisol concentrations and area under the curve (AUC) were lower following PS (39 ± 1% and 35 ± 0%, respectively) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS increased AUC for testosterone to cortisol ratio (184 ± 5%) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS and placebo supplementation had no effect on lactate or growth hormone levels."

For the record, this is why many (most?) individuals do not tolerate PS at all. It reduces HPA activity, and thus cortisol, to a rather remarkable degree.

[C Norris]

I find that hard to believe though. Is there any other evidence of that? I dont know why this would happen considering it is a natural dietary component. I would assume that the benefits outweighed the disbenefits to a rather remarkable degree?

[Ex Dubio]

I find that hard to believe though. Is there any other evidence of that? I dont know why this would happen considering it is a natural dietary component. I would assume that the benefits outweighed the disbenefits to a rather remarkable degree?

Evidence of what? It's pretty clear that it induces a substantial reduction in cortisol; there are other studies. If you mean the anecdotes, there are plenty on this forum and on the internet at large. I know I have tried PS in the past (100mg/day) and found it to be fairly profoundly unpleasant, fatiguing, and generally not something I want to take again. It certainly wasn't therapeutic, and I saw no discernible benefits. I've heard similar anecdotal reports from other members of the forum.

This really shouldn't be too surprising; lowering cortisol in individuals with normal -- or low -- levels of cortisol is pretty much expected to be somewhere between unpleasant and dysphoric.

Now, it is interesting that it can be found in foods -- e.g. beef -- at concentrations such that one would get 100mg or more from a single serving, but I wonder if there are bioavailability issues that make it distinct from supplemental PS.

[Chip Douglas]

I know I have tried PS in the past (100mg/day) and found it to be fairly profoundly unpleasant, fatiguing, and generally not something I want to take again. It certainly wasn't therapeutic, and I saw no discernible benefits.

On 100 mg/day, I've experienced the complete opposite of what you did (better mood, better cognition, increased well-being and libido and significantly less inner tension) We've discussed that before, but I wanted to bring this up as it's relevant to this thread. Mind you, I'm talking 100 mg/day in a combo with fish oil.

[C Norris]

I'm wondering, if there is anything in this, that it might suggest the best time to eat mackeral or take PS supplements would be in the evening. I'm guessing that any effect is reasonably short lived.

In terms of L-Serine content, there is also overall quite a lot in Mackeral - around 1 gram per 100g of meat, which I'm assuming includes the serine in the half gram of PS you get, which will comprise relatively little L-Serine.

http://www.vitalhealthzone.com/nutri...ds/serine.html

http://lib3.dss.go.th/fulltext/Journ...p2015-2020.pdf

http://www.foodcomp.dk/v7/fcdb_details.asp?FoodId=0178

This suggests oily fish are in the half gram-1g range per 100g. Also rish in L Lysine, which has anxiolytic effects in people who are low in intake of this.

Another source on mackerel claims that there is over 2 grams of L-Serine per 100g dried protein.

[C Norris]

Hmmn - chicken stock - antioxidant peptides and a fairly good source of Carnosine. http://www.fda.gov.tw/files/publish_periodical/13_9.pdf

[Hip]

Very interesting, C Norris.

I have not had mackerel for a long time, but I've always though that this fish feels more nutritious than any other.

With 480 mg of phosphatidylserine per 100 gram serving, that may be why.

I have recently started experimenting with higher doses of phosphatidylserine, and I am getting very good results in terms of anxiety-reduction, noticeable ADHD-type symptom reduction, and a general mood boost.

(Not sure why I had these ADHD-type symptoms with my chronic fatigue syndrome, but these symptoms are quite bad some days, and I am often unable to properly read even a simple email on these bad ADHD days).

Now, it is interesting that it can be found in foods -- e.g. beef -- at concentrations such that one would get 100mg or more from a single serving, but I wonder if there are bioavailability issues that make it distinct from supplemental PS.

I read in two other MMF threads that phosphatidylserine has different fatty acids in it, depending on its source. Perhaps this is why Ex Dubio found the supplement form of phosphatidylserine (derived from soy) problematic, but not the form found in food.

I was not aware that phosphatidylserine can vary in its chemistry, though. Is phosphatidylserine a class of chemical compounds, rather than a specific molecular formula?

Here are the excerpts from these two threads

Lloyd Horrocks, Ph. D., Professor Emeritus of Medical Biochemistry at Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio, and an expert on fatty acids says, "The fatty acids in bovine cortex Phosphatidylserine are mostly made of DHA and arachidonic acid while the fatty acids from soy-derived Phosphatidylserine are made mostly from oleic, linolenic, and linoleic acids. It’s quite likely the DHA and arachidonic acids in BC-Phosphatidylserine could have some cognitive effect. It’s also possible that the clinical effects from taking Phosphatidylserine may be due to this nutrient influencing the release of histamine, glucose uptake in the brain, or in other yet unknown ways."

BC or bovine cortex PS results simply are not the same as soy-derived PS supplementation.

May 7th, 2005. Ref: here

This is interesting, like the findings on DHA supplementation of infant formulas now showing no significant detectible effects on intelligence (on full term babies) of DHA enriched formula vs no DHA/ALA formula, and like wise with maternal supplementation, or breast vs infant formula (unfortified)

The Soy PS is different through the fatty acid tails being Alpha Linolenic Acids rather that higher O3's, and as far as I know, thats more or less it. I was myself optimistic for neurological benefits and still am, because from what I have read, most PS has the fatty acid tails clipped off and replaced by DHA in the brain..

Perhaps PS should be taken with adequate DHA, since this also raises PS levels in the brain, and likely rate limitation of DHA supply will impact then on the levels of the functional (DHA) type PS accumulating from a soy PS precursor. Anything which effects the enzymes that do this to produce the optimal PS forms could therefore impair the function of Soy PS. EPA also seems to reduce phospholipase, so DHA without EPA may be indicated, pardoxically, with Soy PS, yet more Soy PS may be needed to replace natural degradation.

One pressumes that the higher form of PS in the brain exerts the supposed cortisol lowerinmg effect, but it could be via other routes, or just an experimental fluke, their is no PS / cortisol relationship.

But perhaps the 'cheap' and optimal PS supplement would not be Soy PS, but a precursor of phospholipids, Alpha Glycerophosphocholine - A-GPC, DHA in adequate ammounts, and an L-Serine supplement or promoter.

The chemistry of its formation, and factors that effect end PS levels, of the natural PS form, should be examined, especially nutritional ones.

The above experiment, whilst not too glowing for the application of Soy PS on athletic parameters, still has some promise as an aid for brain function, though the studies here are also mixed, perhaps because SOy PS, as postulated above, needs additional factors which haven't been controlled for, in order to 'work' propperly.

If you see what I mean.

January 14th, 2006. Ref: here

[Chip Douglas]

have recently started experimenting with higher doses of phosphatidylserine, and I am getting very good results in terms of anxiety-reduction, noticeable ADHD-type symptom reduction, and a general mood boost.

(Not sure why I had these ADHD-type symptoms with my chronic fatigue syndrome, but these symptoms are quite bad some days, and I am often unable to properly read even a simple email on these bad ADHD days).

When I first began supplementing PS (soy derived), it just wouldn't do a thing to me, irrelevant of the daily dosage. After I started on fish oil, then even 100 mg PS/day started to make a significant difference - just like you, I've found it to reduce anxiety, boost mood and help with ADHD symptoms. FWIW, I've been diagnosed with both ADHD and GAD and dysthymic disorder. Among the number of substances I've tried to this day, PS is the one which made the most positive difference of them all. I've also found it to boost libido, though this likely comes as a consequence of reduced anxiety and better mood.

It is also possible as C. Norris mentioned, that it's having a positive effect in controlling inflammation in the CNS and elsewhere. Figure*6 : The phosphatidylserine receptor: a crucial molecular switch? : Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology

[C Norris]

Thanks Hip/Chip. Theres some good data here that really needs a dedicated thread I think.

[Hip]

When I first began supplementing PS (soy derived), it just wouldn't do a thing to me, irrelevant of the daily dosage. After I started on fish oil, then even 100 mg PS/day started to make a significant difference - just like you, I've found it to reduce anxiety, boost mood and help with ADHD symptoms. FWIW, I've been diagnosed with both ADHD and GAD and dysthymic disorder. Among the number of substances I've tried to this day, PS is the one which made the most positive difference of them all. I've also found it to boost libido, though this likely comes as a consequence of reduced anxiety and better mood.

It is also possible as C. Norris mentioned, that it's having a positive effect in controlling inflammation in the CNS and elsewhere. Figure*6 : The phosphatidylserine receptor: a crucial molecular switch? : Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology

That's very interesting, Chip. I was taking 2000 mg of cold liver oil with 300 mg of phosphatidylserine, just because I read that EPA and DHA work well with phosphatidylserine. However, from your experience, it seems that co-adminstration with EPA/DHA may be a crucial factor in getting the benefits of phosphatidylserine.

I might try a krill oil source of EPA/DHA with phosphatidylserine, and see if that works even better.

I read somewhere that krill oil is a better form of EPA/DHA for people with chronic fatigue syndrome (or other conditions in which there is a high level of oxidative stress), because EPA/DHA from ordinary fish oil can get oxidized within the body, whereas krill oil is apparently more resistant to oxidation under high level oxidative stress.

I can't find any refs to this at the moement, but I found this article, which provides some refs:

Benefits of Krill Oil with Omega 3 Fats

It may just be the astaxanthin in krill oil that provides the protection from oxidation. In which case, it might be cheaper just to use ordinary fish oil, and take an astaxanthin supplement.

[Chip Douglas]

That's very interesting, Chip. I was taking 2000 mg of cold liver oil with 300 mg of phosphatidylserine, just because I read that EPA and DHA work well with phosphatidylserine. However, from your experience, it seems that co-adminstration with EPA/DHA may be a crucial factor in getting the benefits of phosphatidylserine.

Incidentally, when I first began taking fish oil (first time ever actually, which was last winter) I started on 1 tsp/day and titrated up to 4 grams over the course of a week or so. Right from the get-go, I experienced GI upset in the form of tummy aches and diarrhea - it was so incapacitating that I'd often find myself in bed for hours after having a dose of fish oil. After more than a week putting up with that, I decided to stop the fish oil - low and behold, it was a full three weeks before said symptoms went away, though I wasn't taking any fish oil then. I waited a few more weeks after the disappearance of symptoms and re-introduced low dose fish oil (1 tsp/day) - this time - this time, I didn't get any GI upset. I know that fish oil is known to cause GI upset in some - I'm wondering whether I can chalk it up to a ''known'' fish oil induced GI upset, or whether there's something underlying the kind of reaction I experienced. I think It's also entirely possible that I titrated up to 4 grams too rapidly.

C.Norris mentioned that Omega 3 has direct antiinflammatory, antiviral and antibacterial effects, particularly in the gut. So this is particularly why I wonder whether the above mentioned GI upset is a) the result of too fast a titration or b) maybe, reflective of an underlying gut process, in light of the above benefits of fish oil in the gut.

[Hip]

Incidentally, when I first began taking fish oil (first time ever actually, which was last winter) I started on 1 tsp/day and titrated up to 4 grams over the course of a week or so. Right from the get-go, I experienced GI upset in the form of tummy aches and diarrhea - it was so incapacitating that I'd often find myself in bed for hours after having a dose of fish oil. After more than a week putting up with that, I decided to stop the fish oil - low and behold, it was a full three weeks before said symptoms went away, though I wasn't taking any fish oil then. I waited a few more weeks after the disappearance of symptoms and re-introduced low dose fish oil (1 tsp/day) - this time - this time, I didn't get any GI upset. I know that fish oil is known to cause GI upset in some - I'm wondering whether I can chalk it up to a ''known'' fish oil induced GI upset, or whether there's something underlying the kind of reaction I experienced. I think It's also entirely possible that I titrated up to 4 grams too rapidly.

C.Norris mentioned that Omega 3 has direct antiinflammatory, antiviral and antibacterial effects, particularly in the gut. So this is particularly why I wonder whether the above mentioned GI upset is a) the result of too fast a titration or b) maybe, reflective of an underlying gut process, in light of the above benefits of fish oil in the gut.

I found this:

"Fish oil -- In a study of mice infected with the bacteria Listeria, animals that regularly consumed diets rich in fish oil had significantly more bacteria in their spleens than animals that consumed diets rich in lard or soybean oil. Until researchers can determine what these results mean to humans, people with Listeria infection should avoid foods containing fish oil" (ref: here).

You might try taking fish oil transdermally. I noticed this oil is absorbed into the skin extremely rapidly — in matter of few seconds, and it does not even feel particularly oily afterwards, as soon as it sinks in.

[Chip Douglas]

I found this:

"Fish oil -- In a study of mice infected with the bacteria Listeria, animals that regularly consumed diets rich in fish oil had significantly more bacteria in their spleens than animals that consumed diets rich in lard or soybean oil. Until researchers can determine what these results mean to humans, people with Listeria infection should avoid foods containing fish oil" (ref: here).

You might try taking fish oil transdermally. I noticed this oil is absorbed into the skin extremely rapidly — in matter of few seconds, and it does not even feel particularly oily afterwards, as soon as it sinks in.

The transdermal use is interesting stuff, though I no longer seem to have any fish oil induced GI upset - I keep to a low daily dose (1 tsp to 1 tbsp/day) so far so good. Thanks for posting what you did though.

[C Norris]

Having more bacteria in the spleen may be a GOOD thing, not bad, as the spleen filters out blood borne microbes.

Serine is converted from glycine in the liver, and this mechanism is strongly effected by alcohol, at least in animals. It virtually completely prevents this conversion. Low levels of L Serine and the alcohol intollerence in CFS would appear to be connected via the liver. Low Serine could thereby contribute to many other problems.