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  1. #41
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    With greek yogurt, I will either add splenda-which makes it taste just like american-style yogurt, mocha-flavored splenda packets, or hershey's lite chocolate syrup, which has almost no carbs in it.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Reven's Avatar
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    Alter the Unconditioned Motivating Operation

    The unconditioned motivating operation of food, or binge eating is the level of satiation. In other words the degree to which you are hungry affects 1) the reward and 2) and your behaviour. So eat some salad and drink water before your reefed to limit your binge eating. Or as suggested by Eclyz (http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=43812) interrupt your eating with talking so you can become satiated before you consume too much.



    Goals

    1) Specific

    2) Deadline

    3) Outcome is highly desirable

    4) Receive reinforcers during the course of the goal



    If you are missing any of these you are seriously missing out on the effectiveness of using goals to motivate.



    The problem with the goal of weight loss is that the outcome is far away and you're competing with a natural reinforcer that goes against the goal (eating that cake is rewarding while not eating it, eating clean, or eating less are all punishers). Additionally you're smaller and weaker, all of this sucks.



    Reinforcers

    Compliments are great but are few and far between therefore one cannot rely on them here. Instead structuring in rewards is key. Your refeeds accomplish this but are a problem since they are not contingent on desirable behaviour, the end goal is far away and there is little to no other reinforcers so it is easy to go overboard. Here are a few additions but most import look at the section on rules.



    Picture Prompts

    Can be used to keep you on track. Ex a picture of what you want to look like, for instance a picture of you when you were at your desired BF%. You can also put reminders in all sorts of locations.



    Self-Monitoring

    Can be used similar to a picture prompt. For instance if you had a calander that showed your progress or how much you've eaten ever day and on a weekly basis hanging on your fridge or somewhere you will see all the time you will be less likely to throw away that hard work.



    Public Posting of Progress

    -elicits complements, increases commitment



    Competitions

    Compete with someone else, perhaps a wager in who will loose the most weight, bf%, or gain the least over the holidays.



    Rules

    Set a specific deadline or unit of measure to your reefed. Combine this with a sizable consequence of not following the reefed. Ideally you could have this outcome delivered by an outside party, if you follow the rule you receive the reward or punishment you've created. IE if I eat more than 1000 calories during my refeed Janet isn't going to _________ for me when I see her tonight, and I really it when Janet ___________. Or place your money in a trustee, if you do not keep stay in control you loose it. Friends of mine would fine each other if they missed a workout.



    Self-Talk

    Part of the problem stems from you rationalizing overeating; "One more piece of pie isn't going to make a difference." "I'll get back on the wagon next week." and so forth. Instead, use cognitive reappraisal, IE think about how you're going to stick to your diet and that next reefed your going to eat that pie. "That pie was great I can't wait till next reefed, I think I'm going to have apple, no strawberry-rhubarb instead."



    Basically be on the lookout for counter-productive self-talk and eliminate it. Think of something else, or change the self-talk to be constructive.



    Structuring Refeeds

    Current problem is that they are not contingent upon successful performance. Instead make them contingent, as per the above section called rules. Now to relate this it public posting/prompts, putting down what you are looking forward to eating would work for me. For instance, I know if my calendar said strawberry-rhubarb pie on Friday I'd definitely be looking forward to it, second I know that I would only be able to obtain that reward if I stuck to my diet. If I did not I would cross it out with a red X and every day forward I'd be reminded about how I didn't get to eat that strawberry-rhubarb pie.



    Well there could be more, but others have already talked about how to use avoidance to prevent relapse. But with the above info is easy to see why Weight Watchers is successful, they use group meetings, it is a point based system and self-monitoring as a prompt (they have some sort of calendar thing to keep track of the points and how much the food is worth).



    In regards to the comment about this not being psychological, I dissagree.
    "In moments of weakness, the myth of the extraordinary provides the excuse... to quit."
    "Even at best talent remains a constant, and those who rely upon that gift alone, without developing further, peak quickly and soon fade to obscurity."

  3. #43
    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaWd View Post
    With greek yogurt, I will either add splenda-which makes it taste just like american-style yogurt, mocha-flavored splenda packets, or hershey's lite chocolate syrup, which has almost no carbs in it.


    Kroger has a brand of yogurt called Carb Master that has 3g of net carbs and 12g of protein. Simply amazing, helps satisfy my hunger and urge for sweets. I love this stuff. Apoc told me about it a while back but I had forgotten about it until recently.


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fake Altruist View Post
    And Kimbo if this still isn't for you, then all good and I hope you do find a solution to have your cake and literally eat it too lol, Don't take this as me having a go at you personally, rather the idea you are trying to employ which I disagree with.


    No offense taken at all. You've provided a lot of good input. I think that this is a good point in particular:



    It's not your body building a survival buffer. It's your body saying I haven't had enough food yet, and this is because some inbuilt feedback loops are fucking up.






    I do believe that I have some seriously fucked up reward responses.


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo View Post
    It seems like I've been wrestling with this for years. Whenever I adopt a diet that allows for some wiggle-room (like a cheat meal or two a week, or something along those lines), I always end up fucking up, sometimes pigging out for a few weeks before getting back on track.
    Yep.




    I'm pretty tired of doing super-strict diets,


    Yeah.




    but I don't seem to be wired to do anything else. I would really like to be able to lose weight slowly, change my eating habits, and just take things easy. Intermittent fasting seems to have helped, but it wasn't the magic bullet I was hoping it would be - I'm able to stick to 2-3 meals a day, starting at noon, but I'll often end up pigging out at night.


    Yep. I can eat a jar of PB at night.



    BUt, I don't. Now I instead go for seaweed soup or cabbage soup plus herbal tea. That seems to help fill me up without adding a lot of calories. Sometimes I feel hungry when I'm actually thirsty.




    For those of you who have been able to maintain low body fat for a significant period of time, what sort of strategies do you use to help you do this? Specifically, I am wondering how you're able to occasionally eat foods that you enjoy without going nuts.


    My diet sounds somewhat similar to Fake Altruist's.



    The term "paleo" is new to me, but I have for a long time been a big veggie eater. Like 20 servings of fruits and veggies a day. I buy the freshest and best local produce I can find, and go with what is in season. Where I live (CA) has much diverse local produce.



    Sleep is very important; massage helps, baths can help. Doing parkour seemed to make a big difference for me. Stronger core and leaner.Some of my older pre-parkour vids are kind of flabby.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Tussmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fake Altruist View Post
    Well this addresses another view point of mine: Top down, command and control diets don't work. That is what I feel Kimbo you're trying to employ. There is a reason why you are carrying more fat than you desire; your genes won. You know you didn't need that food, you would like less bodyfat, but you still ate the whole fucking lot. Genes 1, Psychological solution 0. I think it is futile trying to fight this incredibly complex system, because it will always win in the end. Just look around you, no one wants to be fat. It doesn't matter how many times you've been cut, or had success slimming down. If you've ended up back at an unsatisfactory body composition, you haven't yet achieved success. And the root of the problem all stems from your genes being given the wrong inputs, they think they are in the Paleolithic, but the signals they are receiving are novel and differ from what that environment is typically capable of delivering. Contemporary hunter gathers do not exhibit the gradual widening of the waste size seen in modern societies.



    The human body is a decentralised complex open energy system. Its complexity far exceeds our current understanding of its working, so the only current option IMO is to work with what our genes expect. When animals find themselves in a food abundance in nature, they don't get fat, they reproduce more (not counting certain adaptations like bears before hibernation, etc). So I view a male body that carries greater than ~15% bodyfat not as someone who just ate too much, but someone who has slightly/severely broken their bodies internal feeding and hunger regulation mechanisms. I believe our genes want our [male] body to carry <15% bf and deviation from this is an evolutionary discordance. It's not your body building a survival buffer. It's your body saying I haven't had enough food yet, and this is because some inbuilt feedback loops are fucking up. A Paleo diet corrects these fuckups, anything else is a patch, trying to fix the shit up rather than correct the disequilibrium.



    Your hoping you can beat this by finding some mental paradigm shift in your thinking? I don't think it's possible. Not while living an enjoyable existence, or unless you are a one of an extreme minority (which judging solely on the background info you've given in this thread, I don't think you are). Don't be fooled by the outliers, like professorial athletes and the like that have a superhuman drive, and will power over and above anything else in pursuit of a goal. I just watched a doco the other day that had an Indian man who has held his arm over his head for IIRC 12 years LOL. Non Stop! If he was into health and muscle and posting on the net hed be one of the ones shouting how easy it is to maintain discipline and not over eat. You'd be thinking fuck well this dude can do it why can't I!?



    Also I should mention that these arguments do have a shortfall when it comes to muscle. It is certainly possible many members on this forum are also exceeding the muscle mass their body could accumulate in a natural environment, and which it will actively be trying to shed as it is so metabolically expensive. I'm all for this, and used to have the same pursuit myself. This however is no longer my main focus, and I think you have to be pretty big, possibly even exogenous hormone assisted, to have this problem. My focus is Health & Longevity -> Performance -> Strength -> Muscle Mass. That is a big caveat I should probably have laid down on the table from the start. And Kimbo if this still isn't for you, then all good and I hope you do find a solution to have your cake and literally eat it too lol, Don't take this as me having a go at you personally, rather the idea you are trying to employ which I disagree with.




    This post owns.

  7. #47
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    I am maintaining around 9%. Very slowly getting leaner.



    My strategy is to "push-pull." Over a week, I "push." That is, I try to create as many days of caloric deficit as I can. I shoot for deficit of 500 cal or more. At the weelemd, I "pull." I spike the caloric intake. I will allow myself a cheat day where I eat comfortable amount (but not go crazy). If I am still worn out, I will add a second cheat day, at close to maintenance calories.



    Pros: You can maintain this type of dieting "forever," because you physically/psychologically recover. Also, you can gain muscle mass while losing body fat. Cons: Progress is slower than in other diets - because, on the average, the caloric deficit per day is smaller.



    I believe as one becomes leaner, given that one satisfies the protein requirement, eating more carbs and less fat is superior (assuming that you are lifting weights for exercise).



    To accelerate the fat loss over muscle loss (otherwise, what is the point of dieting at all?), I believe one needs to perform 4 or more days of exercise per week. During each session, I do about 40 sets of 10 reps. Weights are relatively light, but heavy enough so that toward the end of the session, I cannot or have difficulty completing the sets. I think signalling aspect of exercise is more important than the calories you burn from exercising.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fake Altruist View Post
    A Paleo diet corrects these fuckups, anything else is a patch, trying to fix the shit up rather than correct the disequilibrium.
    I disagree completely with this. I believe this is nonsense (no offense at the poster himself). There are countless people who have had success with low fat diet, low carb diet, veggan, you name your own diet ...



    Your hoping you can beat this by finding some mental paradigm shift in your thinking? I don't think it's possible.
    Also diagree here. Look at anorexic people. Mind-over-matter.



    Not while living an enjoyable existence, or unless you are a one of an extreme minority (which judging solely on the background info you've given in this thread, I don't think you are). Don't be fooled by the outliers, like professorial athletes and the like that have a superhuman drive, and will power over and above anything else in pursuit of a goal. I just watched a doco the other day that had an Indian man who has held his arm over his head for IIRC 12 years LOL. Non Stop! If he was into health and muscle and posting on the net hed be one of the ones shouting how easy it is to maintain discipline and not over eat. You'd be thinking fuck well this dude can do it why can't I!?
    Again, I disagree. What you see in people who have accomplished a great deal is a reason to emulate them, not to throw up your arms and say "he is an aberration! Let me scale down my ambitions." I am not attacking you personally here when I say this, but THAT is is a loserish attitude at best. Who knows what one is capable of achieving unless one pushes onself to the limit?



    Also I should mention that these arguments do have a shortfall when it comes to muscle. It is certainly possible many members on this forum are also exceeding the muscle mass their body could accumulate in a natural environment, and which it will actively be trying to shed as it is so metabolically expensive. I'm all for this, and used to have the same pursuit myself. This however is no longer my main focus, and I think you have to be pretty big, possibly even exogenous hormone assisted, to have this problem. My focus is Health & Longevity -> Performance -> Strength -> Muscle Mass. That is a big caveat I should probably have laid down on the table from the start. And Kimbo if this still isn't for you, then all good and I hope you do find a solution to have your cake and literally eat it too lol, Don't take this as me having a go at you personally, rather the idea you are trying to employ which I disagree with.
    Some more disagreements. I think this is nonsense too. People gain on various diets. Look at "Leangains."
    No one

  9. #49
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    Flexible diet consist of vegetables and fruits.It is a diet in which we avoid to eat oily food and prefer to eat simple food for health and fitness.Flexible food provides our body energy and makes us smart and fit.It is good for weight lose.
    John keliv

  10. #50
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    Every 4am I jog at the plaza and at 5am I play basketball with other player that jog also. One way of losing my weight is I exercise every morning when I wake up and then eat my daily food.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Monique Seibel's Avatar
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    I can relate. I find it difficult to practice moderation. Therefore, I find it better to completely eliminate any sort of junk or triggering foods. I also find when you are eating those types of food you crave it more. If I've binged, I find it so much more difficult to get back on track. But if I've been eating clean for weeks, I really don't have the same cravings. I do find it gets easier over time, if you can stick with it. If I do have something more indulgent I make sure it still a nutritious choice. For example, I might have organic dark chocolate, the darker the better or make a chocolate avocado pudding (you can find the recipe in the recipes section on this forum).

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