Voice Issues?

**OttFatha** · January 29th, 2009, 03:15 AM

For the last couple years I have had an issue with my voice which has progressively gotten worse, and its probably the biggest cause of anxiety/social anxiety for me at this point.

The problem is that my voice simply isn't "stable". It changes all the time and usually isn't my "real" voice. Its almost as if I have little control over how it comes out. I can sometimes speak and have my voice feel comfortable and natural - not deep but not high. When this is happening my confidence skyrockets (or could it be vica-versa?) because I feel so much more at ease speaking. Typically I am very conscious of how my voice is coming out, but this just makes it worse. Often it comes out "stressed" where it sounds "forced" and out of pitch (usually too high), lacking flow, etc.

Before I start speaking I sometimes have to clear my throat as if to "get a grip" on my voice... if I don't, my first few words sometimes come out in a strange voice. So I also have to clear my throat a lot, which sucks. I definately have noticed that when I am caught off-guard, such as when someone walking by says "hi" that I don't expect, that almost all the time when I respond its in a stressed and unnatural voice.

So what is the cause of this? I think the root is probably hormonal or caused by allergies. I tested low for T a while back and I think its always been low-normal. Could low-t be causing this? I also think that I try to compensate for not having a deep voice by making mine slightly deeper, but its not like you think - very slight effort to make it deeper. The thing that might really be causing it is allergies... I have almost nonstop coughing up of flem, and frequent stuffy or runny noses along with some minor sinus issues. Could these be "squeezing" my voicebox/throat/whatever and making my voice sound funny? I'm also starting to think I could have an allergy to dairy, which I eat/drink a ton of and I heard it causes excess mucus, so I'm gonna get that tested soon.

Finally, I realize its also psychological, but its a feedback loop that I'm having trouble stopping. I think about it, which might make it come out funny, which then makes me think about it more, etc.... Help me... lol

**DavidWebb** · January 29th, 2009, 03:40 AM

you need to get your DA up and your histamine down imo. you are the real sensitive type, no?

**OttFatha** · January 29th, 2009, 03:43 AM

I honestly would say no, I'm not, or at least I do a good job of hiding it...? In a way I probably am, as in I let things swirl around in my head a little too long.

Could you explain the histamine?

**DavidWebb** · January 29th, 2009, 04:00 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OttFatha @ Jan 28 2009, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I honestly would say no, I'm not, or at least I do a good job of hiding it...? In a way I probably am, as in I let things swirl around in my head a little too long.

Could you explain the histamine?</div>

your writing style comes across as insecure. ime high histamine types not only have allergies but also issues with anxiety, self-confidence, and testosterone. it may or may not be a causal relationship but that is what i have observed in my limited experience. i'm no expert though.

are you fair skinned, blond or light fine hair??

**SoulSeeker** · January 29th, 2009, 05:03 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Finally, I realize its also psychological, but its a feedback loop that I'm having trouble stopping. I think about it, which might make it come out funny, which then makes me think about it more, etc.... Help me... lol</div>

This sounds a lot like anxiety to me. When people get extremely anxious and have a lot of physiological arousal, it can manifest in their voice modulation and tone. Think about it: the embodiment of relaxed "cool" artists like Barry White are associated with a deep baritone.

You haven't described enough, but I will tell you that a lot of patients with social phobia are extremely self-conscious of their own bodily symptoms (voice, sweating, blushing, etc.), and how that appears to other people.

Yes, it can be a feedback loop. Let's use blushing as an example: You've had a few bad experiences in which you blushed in social situations, and became extremely anxious when people noticed. Thus, you've developed a conditioned response to anxiety/embarrassment/bodily symptoms of anxiety & blushing. So now whenever you go into a social situation, your anticipatory anxiety makes you blush automatically, which makes you even more embarrassed, which makes you blush stronger, etc. (negative feedback loop).

Doing some CBT would help with this. Specifically, some exposure therapy, focusing on your speech in social situations, and extinguishing the anxious response. Also, some cognitive work would help reduce your self-consciousness/anxiety about what (you think) other people think if you have a voice that's slightly off/high.

**DavidWebb** · January 29th, 2009, 06:12 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Jan 29 2009, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This sounds a lot like anxiety to me. When people get extremely anxious and have a lot of physiological arousal, it can manifest in their voice modulation and tone. Think about it: the embodiment of relaxed "cool" artists like Barry White are associated with a deep baritone.

You haven't described enough, but I will tell you that a lot of patients with social phobia are extremely self-conscious of their own bodily symptoms (voice, sweating, blushing, etc.), and how that appears to other people.

Yes, it can be a feedback loop. Let's use blushing as an example: You've had a few bad experiences in which you blushed in social situations, and became extremely anxious when people noticed. Thus, you've developed a conditioned response to anxiety/embarrassment/bodily symptoms of anxiety & blushing. So now whenever you go into a social situation, your anticipatory anxiety makes you blush automatically, which makes you even more embarrassed, which makes you blush stronger, etc. (negative feedback loop).

Doing some CBT would help with this. Specifically, some exposure therapy, focusing on your speech in social situations, and extinguishing the anxious response. Also, some cognitive work would help reduce your self-consciousness/anxiety about what (you think) other people think if you have a voice that's slightly off/high.</div>

I had this exact same feedback loop with the sweating and blushing. It ended as soon as I discontinued SSRIs.

**AvanteSA** · January 29th, 2009, 08:35 AM

I think it has to do with worrying with what others may think of you, which really boils down to confidence.

We all vary our voices slightly depending upon the situation, it is normal. Say, when you are speaking to ladies or need to act alpha, you will automatically switch to a deeper voice. On the other hand, if you are fucking around with your buddies who you know don't give a fuck about your voice, you will feel more natural. Shit, even when I talk to my mom I change my voice, don't want to act all alpha with her cos she'll slap me on my face and tell me to stop acting like Burt Reynolds.

Age has to do with this too. How old are you?

**orthomolecular** · January 29th, 2009, 10:51 AM

If you have insurance you might look into consulting a speech therapist. Your insurance should cover this. A speech therapist can teach you techniques to relax your throat and help with speaking when you are caught off guard.
They can also help you find the most natural pitch for you.

It might also help to work on anxiety issues you may have. And no harm in getting a medical check up to address the excess mucous problem. It might be worth a try to see if reducing dairy helps with this problem.

But a speech therapist can probably help your understand your speech and voice problems better.

**Sprinkles** · January 29th, 2009, 12:36 PM

Postural issues. Work on lower back, mid back, shoulders and vacuum pose.

**OttFatha** · January 30th, 2009, 03:48 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DavidWebb @ Jan 29 2009, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>your writing style comes across as insecure. ime high histamine types not only have allergies but also issues with anxiety, self-confidence, and testosterone. it may or may not be a causal relationship but that is what i have observed in my limited experience. i'm no expert though.

are you fair skinned, blond or light fine hair??</div>

Nope, none of the three. Would having almost non-stop (yet moderate) allergy symptoms be indicative of high histamine? And yea, I probably do come off as insecure because I dont post on message boards often and I'm here confessing my problems... I appreciate the help though.

Can histamine levels be checked easily? Say they are high, then what?

**DavidWebb** · January 30th, 2009, 04:20 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OttFatha @ Jan 29 2009, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nope, none of the three. Would having almost non-stop (yet moderate) allergy symptoms be indicative of high histamine? And yea, I probably do come off as insecure because I dont post on message boards often and I'm here confessing my problems... I appreciate the help though.

Can histamine levels be checked easily? Say they are high, then what?</div>

well you really screwed up my data then. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

brotelligence apparently has some inherit flaws.

anyway, my guess would be to take an anti-histamine. you could also get allergy shots which supposedly desensitize you to the allergies.

**Sanction** · January 30th, 2009, 04:38 AM

Your problems are quite common. Breathing, posture, tension and attitudes play a role.

Voice training can help a great deal. If you go that route, be sure to get a teacher whose expertise is in speaking rather than singing. Such teachers usually work with people in radio, film, tv and stage acting.

Here's the philosophy of one legendary teacher who is now retired:
The task of voice training is to free the natural voice. To free the voice means that we must work to release:
1. the physical body, the house in which the voice lives.
2. the ear, in order that it can hear accurately.
3. the emotions, in order that we can process and respond to present time information, and yet be able to tap the past when appropriate.
4. the intellect, in order that we can analyze information without judgment.
5. creativity.
6. understanding and facility with a full range of spoken language, which includes vocabulary, modes of oral expression, and the spoken sounds of language and dialects.

**OttFatha** · January 30th, 2009, 02:25 PM

After some more research, I meet a lot of the criteria for high histamine, or histadelia. Is this recognized as a real condition by the medical community? I want to get my blood work done and test for Zinc, B Vitamins, Magnesium, Histamine, Copper, and Calcium... can I just go to my family doctor and request these?

**orthomolecular** · January 30th, 2009, 03:32 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OttFatha @ Jan 30 2009, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After some more research, I meet a lot of the criteria for high histamine, or histadelia. Is this recognized as a real condition by the medical community? I want to get my blood work done and test for Zinc, B Vitamins, Magnesium, Histamine, Copper, and Calcium... can I just go to my family doctor and request these?</div>

No, histadelia is not recognized by the medical community. But histadelia is the same as the genetic mutation MTHFr SNP. Histadelics have a problem with folic acid. That SNP is an about an enzyme that metabolises folate. Histadelics should avoid regular folate supplements and take methyl folate.

There is a blood test that includes histamine levels.

Your doctor is probably not going to test for SNPs. If he did it might cost about $1000. 23andMe.com had a $399 (I think) special sometime ago for SNP testing.

If you get some basic blood tests they might help. If you have a folate deficiency sometimes it can show in abnornal MCV levels. Inability to process folate translates into high folate levels in blood, sometimes unusually high, but really you have a deficiency because your body isn't metabolising it.

**OttFatha** · February 2nd, 2009, 03:11 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (orthomolecular @ Jan 30 2009, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, histadelia is not recognized by the medical community. But histadelia is the same as the genetic mutation MTHFr SNP. Histadelics have a problem with folic acid. That SNP is an about an enzyme that metabolises folate. Histadelics should avoid regular folate supplements and take methyl folate.

There is a blood test that includes histamine levels.

Your doctor is probably not going to test for SNPs. If he did it might cost about $1000. 23andMe.com had a $399 (I think) special sometime ago for SNP testing.

If you get some basic blood tests they might help. If you have a folate deficiency sometimes it can show in abnornal MCV levels. Inability to process folate translates into high folate levels in blood, sometimes unusually high, but really you have a deficiency because your body isn't metabolising it.</div>

So histadelia = under-methylation = I can't process folate correctly, leaving me with a folic acid deficiency, correct?

So I'm thinking of trying this "Niacin flush test" which should hint at whether or not I have high histamine. I'm currently on 25mg of Zoloft and probably moving to 50mg soon, but this is making me think twice.

If I have "histadelia", would I need to take L-methyl-folate, or avoid it?

Have you ever heard of Deplin? www.deplin.com
Seems interesting

**SoulSeeker** · February 2nd, 2009, 08:43 AM

Would it bother you if there was a psychological/behavioral (breathing, postural) cause to your voice issues? What would it mean to you if it was?

I'm just curious because numerous suggestions along these lines have been made, and you seem more interested in the histadelia/methylation hypotheses. I find that preference strange since these physiological theories are apparently not accepted by the medical community and cost $1000 to test for?

Maybe that is the cause and it's a quick fix, I don't know. But what if it's not?

**orthomolecular** · February 2nd, 2009, 11:22 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OttFatha @ Feb 1 2009, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So histadelia = under-methylation = I can't process folate correctly, leaving me with a folic acid deficiency, correct?

So I'm thinking of trying this "Niacin flush test" which should hint at whether or not I have high histamine. I'm currently on 25mg of Zoloft and probably moving to 50mg soon, but this is making me think twice.

If I have "histadelia", would I need to take L-methyl-folate, or avoid it?

Have you ever heard of Deplin? www.deplin.com
Seems interesting</div>

The niacin flush test is something you can try. I know Carlson has a 50 mg niacin product that costs less than $5. If you flush from just 50 mg of niacin (nicotinic acid) then you probably are a histadelic.

Some supplements should be avoided before doing the test. Things like histidine, beta alanine, carnosine, high doses of folate, and maybe a few other things I can't think of now. Just do the test first thing in the morning before you eat breakfast and take any supplements and that should give you good results.

Yes, if you are a histadelic then you don't process regular folate and should take a methylfolate product. I had never heard of deplin but that seems like something you would benefit from if you are a histadelic. Of course there are methylfolate supplements that don't require a prescription.

Histadelics usually don't benefit from SSRIs only. They can have several low neurotransmitters because they under methylate. Methylation effects most neurotransmitters, if not all.

Histadelia = under methylation.

**OttFatha** · February 3rd, 2009, 01:10 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Feb 2 2009, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Would it bother you if there was a psychological/behavioral (breathing, postural) cause to your voice issues? What would it mean to you if it was?

I'm just curious because numerous suggestions along these lines have been made, and you seem more interested in the histadelia/methylation hypotheses. I find that preference strange since these physiological theories are apparently not accepted by the medical community and cost $1000 to test for?

Maybe that is the cause and it's a quick fix, I don't know. But what if it's not?</div>

No, you're right in the fact that this is probably an issue. But the histamine thing really caught my eye because of all my other syptoms I have had... I match the diagnosis almost completely, down to the physical aspects. So I really want to explore this because if I can work on the physical problems first, it will make CBT and voice and posture techniques that much easier.

Ortho, I've done a lot of research and seem to have some conflicting views regarding Folic Acid. Undermethylated/histadelics have a problem converting folic acid into Methyl Folate, right? But I've also read that Folic Acid aggravates symptoms for histadelics/undermethylaters. So do Histadelics have low levels of folic acid, or high levels?

Deplin supplements a LARGE amount of methyl folate (about 4 steps down from folic acid) so I dont know if that would be helpful for high histamine, or for low?

**orthomolecular** · February 3rd, 2009, 11:26 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OttFatha @ Feb 2 2009, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ortho, I've done a lot of research and seem to have some conflicting views regarding Folic Acid. Undermethylated/histadelics have a problem converting folic acid into Methyl Folate, right? But I've also read that Folic Acid aggravates symptoms for histadelics/undermethylaters. So do Histadelics have low levels of folic acid, or high levels?

Deplin supplements a LARGE amount of methyl folate (about 4 steps down from folic acid) so I dont know if that would be helpful for high histamine, or for low?</div>

Regular folic acid increases histamine levels. So histadelics should avoid regular folic acid because their body can't process it properly.

But they can handle methylfolate. This form of folic acid is good for them. This form will not increase histamine levels. This form they can process and will not become trapped.

Because of undermethylation folate can become trapped. That means it isn't processed and gets stuck in the methylation pathway. This causes a folate deficiency but may also show high serum folate levels because its trapped and not being metabolized.

Like the deplin site said a folic acid deficiency can cause depression, among other things. Completely avoiding folate is not ideal. We all need folate. But the proper form can avoid the problem of folate not being metabolized properly and getting trapped.

(Overmethylators have no problem metabolizing regular folate.)

You need other supplements besides methylfolate. SAMe (or methionine), calcium, magnesium, vitamin C can lower histamine levels.

If you do this yourself, without a doctor experienced with this approach, you may create imbalances if you are missing some nutrients you need. You can look for someone with othro experience or someone with metabolic typing experience.

Someone who is experienced with metabolic typing will do a variety of tests to check different things like your ph, your oxidative metabolic type (histadelic = fast oxidizer), and your CNS dominance (parasymphatetic vs. sympathetic dominant). And they may recommend supplements and a diet (breakdown of macronutrients and some foods to avoid or those that are beneficial) to help you correct these issues/imbalances.

**OttFatha** · February 3rd, 2009, 02:02 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (orthomolecular @ Feb 3 2009, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Regular folic acid increases histamine levels. So histadelics should avoid regular folic acid because their body can't process it properly.

But they can handle methylfolate. This form of folic acid is good for them. This form will not increase histamine levels. This form they can process and will not become trapped.

Because of undermethylation folate can become trapped. That means it isn't processed and gets stuck in the methylation pathway. This causes a folate deficiency but may also show high serum folate levels because its trapped and not being metabolized.

Like the deplin site said a folic acid deficiency can cause depression, among other things. Completely avoiding folate is not ideal. We all need folate. But the proper form can avoid the problem of folate not being metabolized properly and getting trapped.

(Overmethylators have no problem metabolizing regular folate.)

You need other supplements besides methylfolate. SAMe (or methionine), calcium, magnesium, vitamin C can lower histamine levels.

If you do this yourself, without a doctor experienced with this approach, you may create imbalances if you are missing some nutrients you need. You can look for someone with othro experience or someone with metabolic typing experience.

Someone who is experienced with metabolic typing will do a variety of tests to check different things like your ph, your oxidative metabolic type (histadelic = fast oxidizer), and your CNS dominance (parasymphatetic vs. sympathetic dominant). And they may recommend supplements and a diet (breakdown of macronutrients and some foods to avoid or those that are beneficial) to help you correct these issues/imbalances.</div>

Wow, awesome reply - thanks. Any hints on how to find a doctor that would work with this/specialize in this? Homeopathy?