[quote name='RepubCarrier' date='Aug 9 2005, 11:58 AM'][quote name='prolangtum' date='Aug 9 2005, 11:37 AM']when the natural definition is used, its not the hippie definition you guys are putting out. to me, its always meant it eliminated the substances that produce dramatic results in one's body/lb/fat mass.
So wouldn't layne then have to admit that everything Scivation/Primaforce sells doesn't produce dramatic results in his physique (if that was what we accepted as the definition of natural)? How would you define "dramatic"? Also, some people see "dramatic" results with ppar-alpha agonists like sesathin, and others don't see much. Does each person have their own set of substances that, for them, is natural, but for others is not natural?
hell i'll say it right now. No supplement out there period produces a dramatic change in my physique... not even close. But at my level... competition and persuing my natural pro card, every ounce counts.