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  1. #81
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    About one week and no signs of serotonin syndrome.
    eatin aint cheatin


  2. #82
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    Dopamine, I can see your responses are well thought out, and I'm glad to have another logical thinker at this board. I think you have drawn many premature conclusions, and I definitely think you are mistaken in thinking there is a such thing as an "objective source of information," but I simply don't have the time to try to justify myself to anyone. So I will discuss the science, but not the personal attacks.



    I am sure then you are aware of the interaction between vasopressin and serotonin. Reading a bunch of studies doesn't make you qualified to distribute medical advice on the safety of comining a prescription drug and a little-studied herb.


    This goes back to my water analogy, or better my whey protein one. Eat some whey protein, serotonin levels will elevate, due to the high tryptophan content. But this does not constitute any concern for a whey protein/SSRI interaction. And with almost any substance you can point to a biochemical pathway that could lead to a "possible drug interaction" using this logic. It's pretty much infinitely regressive.



    Points that you have yet to address in this matter.



    1. Serotonin syndrome is very rare. It only happens (still rarely) when you combine potent serotonergic agents, there is no evidence that rhodiola is such an agent in therapeutic doses. In fact...



    2. There is some evidence against it. For example, rhodiola increases endurance capacity, agents that significantly increase serotonin almost universally decrease it. Rhodiola increases energy, enough to the point where high doses lead to insomnia, while high amounts of serotonin are associated with sedation.



    3. Rhodiola has an excellent safety record, and offers numerous health benefits.



    4. If we are to make appeals to authority, none of the newer primarily literature discusses this effect (by this, I mean research appearing in English in the last five years), and offers different explanations for understanding rhodiola's activity. Although I don't go nearly this far, many scientists consider any research more than five years old to be completely illegitimate because medicine advances so quickly. But suffice to say that we definitely know a whole lot more than we did in the 60's, when we could only explain the action of drugs through a select few known systems.
    -David Tolson
    My articles

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynJuice' date='Mar 31 2004, 05:45 PM
    just Tolson accuses me of plagirizing then uses my post to write an article!
    What??????????
    -David Tolson
    My articles

  4. #84
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    This goes back to my water analogy, or better my whey protein one. Eat some whey protein, serotonin levels will elevate, due to the high tryptophan content. But this does not constitute any concern for a whey protein/SSRI interaction. And with almost any substance you can point to a biochemical pathway that could lead to a "possible drug interaction" using this logic. It's pretty much infinitely regressive.


    I think it is reasonable to say that supplementing with the serotonin pre-cursor tryptophan, because it's conversion to serotonin is rate-limited, does not pose as substantial threat as say 5-HTP, which is not rate-limited. When you start ingesting herbal products with biologically active constituents, one must proceed with a reasonable degree of caution.



    The second point about the infinite regression, I think it suffices to say one must investigate all possibilities and consider them in the context of other pharmacologically active compounds, i.e. SSRI's. The degree of certainty will rarely be absolute when considering theoretical interactions, particularly when combining a little-studied herb with an extensively studied potent anti-depressant.



    1. Serotonin syndrome is very rare. It only happens (still rarely) when you combine potent serotonergic agents, there is no evidence that rhodiola is such an agent in therapeutic doses.


    That's true, it is not very common, but you must weigh the commonality in proportion to the severity. I believe that about 30% of those hospitalized for serotonin syndrome die from it, so it's not as though we are dealing with an interaction which is simply uncomfortable to the user of the drug.



    2. There is some evidence against it. For example, rhodiola increases endurance capacities, agents that significantly increase serotonin almost universally decrease it. Rhodiola increases energy, enough to the point where high doses lead to insomnia, while high amounts of serotonin are associated with sedation


    You mention in your article you mention as one of the "many" claimed mechanisms of action to be "propyl endopeptidase inhibition." If this is in fact the case, one can investigate which neuropeptides are increased within various regions of the brain, and what correlations those neuropeptides have with the monoaminergic system. If you investigate it, you'll find that there are correlations between increased vasopressin levels, and increased serotonin levels. This is also true to a lesser extent with substance P levels (see my Mar 27 2004, 05:51 PM post for references).



    Rhodiola has an excellent safety record, and offers numerous health benefits.


    The scarce research (as opposed to many other herbs and supplements) on Rhodiola does indicate a relatively good safety profile, as well as a moderately beneficial health profile (depending on what you are attempting to treat). Some concerns have come up over Rhodiola's safety with respect to heightened estrogen levels, and the possible cancer risks with menopausal women (I think CognitiveForce brought this up not too long ago). Again, all of the safety concerns with Rhodiola are theoretical, due to the little amount of research incentive.



    If we are to make appeals to authority, none of the newer primarily literature discusses this effect (by this, I mean research appearing in English in the last five years), and offers different explanations for understanding rhodiola's activity. Although I don't go nearly this far, many scientists consider any research more than five years old to be completely illegitimate because medicine advances so quickly. But suffice to say that we definitely know a whole lot more than we did in the 60's, when we could only explain the action of drugs through a select few known systems.


    The newest study I could find on Rhodiola rosea dated August 2003, stated that "The regulatory effect of preparations (Siberian ginseng, Rhodiola rosea, bergenia, and ginseng) depended on activity of the corresponding neurotransmitter systems in the brain and local regulatory mechanisms of hemopoiesis" (Bull Exp Biol Med. 2003 Aug;136(2):165-9.) As I said before, Rhodiola probably has various effects on neurotransmitters, possibly neuropeptides. But you can't isolate one of these systems from everything else it may affect, i.e. there are clear connections (as you will discover from reading neuropeptide journals) between the various systems of neurotransmission, including the monoaminergic system and the various neuropeptides. There is quite a large body of literature on this, and if you're interested in reviewing it, I'll it speak for itself.



    I don't think the probability of serotonin syndrome is as great with SSRI's + Rhodiola as with say, Phenelzine & SSRI's. However, I think it is important for those considering any type of combination such as this to proceed with caution, simply because there is a lot we don't know about certain drugs that have been extensively studied, not to mention the even smaller amount of understanding we have about herbs which haven't been studied nearly as much. I think it is a common misconception to believe that science is simply a body of facts to be studied and understood. On the contrary, science is a way of thinking, not some omniscient body of information from which de facto information is to be extracted. We can look at the available information, and proceed to deduct what is most likely in any particular instance of scientific study, however, when that information is not there, you can't assume that the reason for its absence suggests the hypothesis is immediately incorrect. In the absence of scientific information, you have to think scientifically about what is possible, and furthermore in suggesting safe combinations to others, you have to do so in a scientifically responsible way. To say that the combination is safe simply because the little amount of information on the herb doesn't suggest a contraindication is scientifically irresponsible . In the absence of clinical data which suggests a combination to be safe, any suggestion that it is safe must be evaluated to the absolute highest standards of proof. As I have said before, “I don't think it is responsible to say that Rhodiola is safe to take with SSRI's, because you have to weigh the possible cost over the possible benefit, which to me it seems the former possibility of interaction is much greater in degree of severity than the latter possibility of substantial clinical benefit. "
    "When men are most sure and arrogant they are commonly most mistaken, giving views to passion without that proper deliberation which alone can secure them from the grossest absurdities." - David Hume

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    Guys -



    Look at this -



    http://rhodiolarosea.org/HerbGrams-2002.pdf



    2 MD's (Harvard and Columbia) and a Ph.D of biochemistry wrote this. Not only do they not link SSRI and Rhodelia as dangerous...they actively prescribe the combination to their patients!!



    She had a partial response to the antidepressant sertraline

    (Zoloft®, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, SSRI), but this

    was not adequate for her to do more than carry out her daily job.

    The addition of 600 mg/day R. rosea extract (Rosavin) enabled

    her to return to normal enjoyment and full productivity in life. It

    took about 2 months to see these effects. After 6 months, the

    patient began to doubt that she needed the R. rosea and discontinued

    it on her own, only to relapse over the next 3 weeks. Upon

    reinstitution of the R. rosea she returned to full remission and

    remains well 2 years later on sertraline and R. rosea


    Just for you Dopamine, it clearly states the 2 MD's have no financial interests in Rhodiola.

  6. #86
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    Thats great. But you're hitting the point two DOCTORS prescribed and watched the patients. Obviously indivdual variances occur with everyone hence theres one reason for FDA and not every drug is OTC!

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    The point BJ is that in their contraindications they say nothing regarding SSRI's. You would think that if they felt it was a concern they would have mentioned it, ESPECIALLY IF IT CAN KILL THEM LIKE YOU CONSISTENTLY RANT ON ABOUT. But they did not.

  8. #88
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    2 MD's (Harvard and Columbia) and a Ph.D of biochemistry wrote this. Not only do they not link SSRI and Rhodelia as dangerous...they actively prescribe the combination to their patients!!


    That's great how you detest doctors and their medical authority one day when they don't support your views, and all of a sudden like magic the next day when they do support your views, their medical authority is qualified. I think I got whiplash watching your opinion change so sharply.



    Not to mention that your post is inconsequential, considering the doctor's prescribed them the combination after reviewing their entire medical history and physical examination... something that doesn't happen online.
    "It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science." - Carl Sagan

  9. #89
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    Cog -



    Did you not see where I said that yes there are some good MD's? These guys are obviously educated on herbs. My point in objecting to the "check with your MD" blanket statement is that MANY will simply say not to take something b/c they are uneducated about the subject.

    These people specialize in the subject matter, so if they did indeed have anything negative to say you bet your ass I would listen.



    My post is inconsequential.... Hmmmm let's see. We have someone claiming a combination of Rho + SSRI will possibly kill you in this thread. Then we have a couple of MD's and a Ph.D not only use the said therapy, but never mention it as a possible drug interaction. And if you read the damn paper they had a whole section dedicated to that specific issue.



    Next time try reading my entire post and not selectively pulling words to make a point.

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    One other thing - I am not trying to support "my views" on the subject. I dont pretend to know enough to even have an opinion. What I am trying to do is see if there is supporting literature that the RHO+SSRI therapy can be lethal or even harmful. I ran across the contrary and posted it.

    I dont have a "view", I am simply trying to decide if I should stop taking met-rx 02 fx (since I also take 150 Wellbutrin) or if this is simply paranoia at work.

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    2 MD's (Harvard and Columbia) and a Ph.D of biochemistry wrote this. Not only do they not link SSRI and Rhodelia as dangerous...they actively prescribe the combination to their patients!!


    Where does it say they actively prescribe it to their patients in combination with an SSRI? I only see one "Clinical Case Study" in which "Mr. B" used Rhodiola rosea in combination with Zoloft.



    it clearly states the 2 MD's have no financial interests in Rhodiola.


    This is a pretty enthusiastic review of Rhodiola rosea. While the two MD's of the article, Richard P. Brown and Patricia L. Gerbarg, claim to have no "financial interest in Rhodiola rosea", the PhD author Zakir Ramazanov is President and CEO of National Biosciences Corporation. All his books have been commerically published by the company "Safe Goods", including "Arctic Root (Rhodiola Rosea) : The Powerful New Ginseng Alternative", "Effective Natural Stress and Weight Management Using Rhodiola Rosea", and "Rhodiola Rosea for Chronic Stress Disorder." That's what's great about having a PhD, it looks damn good on the cover of a book! Come on, this guy has a huge vested interest in Rhodiola, he makes a ton of money from book sales promoting the herb.



    Let's look at the other two. Richard P. Brown MD has also written a book about the magic of Rhodiola, (commerically published of course) by Rodale Press, entitled "The Rhodiola Revolution : Transform Your Health with the Herbal Breakthrough of the 21st Century", and guess who it was co-authored by? You guessed it! The other MD Patricia L. Gerbarg. This just keeps getting better and better. All the authors of this article have a substantial vested interest in Rhodiola rosea, despite their claims to the contrary. It seems as though these three came together to try to make it look like a real honest article, guess again!



    Piece of humble pie anyone?
    "It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science." - Carl Sagan

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    Wow - that humble pie was delicious.





    Par Deus runs and operates a website called avantlabs, where he lays out articles which coorelate to products he sells. OHHHHHHHH





    Pfizer funds clinical studies which show viagra will give you a hard on.



    What's your point? Can you point out anything blatantly wrong with their research? Can you discount anything they say? Come on there are 13 pages, you have to be able to show where exactly they are lying for the sake of selling an herb.



    The following cases are representative examples of the many

    clinical situations in which R. rosea may be beneficial.

    Although the presentation of individual cases does not carry the

    weight of double-blind placebo-controlled trials, the authors

    hope that these samples from their larger case series may help to

    generate interest and funding for future controlled clinical trials

    to explore the medical applications of this multipotent medicinal

    herb. Note that in some cases the patients served as their own

    controls by discontinuing R. rosea, relapsing, and then improving

    upon resumption of treatment.


    As far as "Mr.B", it is highly illegal to print an actual patient name. While you are doing your research to discount me, look up HIPPA.



    We can banter on back and forth if you like, but my point is if you are to claim that this combination will harm you, much less KILL YOU, dont you think you should have a little more to offer than a 1960 study which says none of the sort?



    Maybe your cognitive force is too much for me to fathom.



    On a side note - I decided not to take the supplement. I was taking it for lactic acid buffering but found out that K+ Citrate should work just as well.

    I was not here to pimp, nor offer any opinion. But when your only argument is that maybe they have a vested interest, you have very little to offer.



    I guess Par is full of shit when he tells me the benefits of sesamin because *gasp* he sells it.

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    What's your point?


    My point is that this article was clearly financially motivated by the authors, which you claimed it wasn't. Are we agreed on this or not?



    Can you point out anything blatantly wrong with their research? Can you discount anything they say? Come on there are 13 pages, you have to be able to show where exactly they are lying for the sake of selling an herb.


    I think if you go back and read Tolson's posts about the use of outdated, Russian scientifc literature it will answer your question. More than half of the citations used in the article refer to studies dated before 1990; half the literature is over 14 years old and most of it from old Russian studies.



    As far as "Mr.B", it is highly illegal to print an actual patient name. While you are doing your research to discount me, look up HIPPA.


    So, if we're agreed that the article was financially motivated and that printing a patient's name is illegal, that just makes it all the more easy to fabricate these so-called "case studies." If we can't know there name, we can't verify that the case and combination actually took place, because the only verification we have is the author's word. In fact, we are not even told which author prescribed this combination.



    We can banter on back and forth if you like, but my point is if you are to claim that this combination will harm you, much less KILL YOU, dont you think you should have a little more to offer than a 1960 study which says none of the sort?


    I never said the combination would kill or harm anyone. I am simply saying that the particular article you pointed to is basically useless, considering all the authors want to remain consistent in their promotion of a product, because they have books on the shelf they want to sell. Sorry to disappoint you, but the article you pointed to doesn't warrant your initial enthusiasm in relation to the combination of SSRI's and Rhodiola rosea.
    "It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science." - Carl Sagan

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    So if half of the 92 references used are before 1990, then a good 46 of them are after that? Forgive me for not counting.



    You have yet to answer one of my questions.

    Is Par full of shit when he lays out the benefits of Sesathin because he sells it??

    OR does he sell it because it works??



    I do not see 2 highly educated MD's lying or making up stories to sell 500 books at $5 bucks a pop about rhodelia. Yes I agree you have to consider it, but come on.



    Overall, R. rosea has very few side effects. Most users find that it

    improves their mood, energy level, and mental clarity. Some individuals,

    particularly those who tend to be anxious, may feel overly

    activated, jittery, or agitated. If this occurs, then a smaller dose

    with very gradual increases may be needed. R. rosea should be

    taken early in the day because it can interfere with sleep or cause

    vivid dreams (not nightmares) during the first few weeks. It is contraindicated

    in excited states. Because R. rosea has an activating

    antidepressant effect, it should not be used in individuals with

    bipolar disorder who are vulnerable to becoming manic when

    given antidepressants or stimulants. Until this has been further

    studied, the authors advise caution in patients with bipolar spectrum

    disorders. The herb does not appear to interact with other

    medications, though it may have additive effects with other stimulants.

    It is best absorbed when taken on an empty stomach 30

    minutes before breakfast and lunch. As with any herbal preparation,

    patients should inform their primary healthcare practitioner




    So why would they even mention the bipolar issue if all they are out to do is make a buck?



    Yes this has a LONG way to go before being taken as fact. It clearly states the case studies are not a double blind placebo controlled study which are the only studies accepted by the scientific community.



    My only point in posting this is that indeed some well educated MD's saw nothing wrong with taking this combination. They did not mention it is a contraindication, nor have I ever seen it mentioned. It was playing devils advocate to the "it will kill you" banter that kept popping up.



    I guess I should just look at the bright side...I have a couple of posters who dont want to see me die from this lethal combination

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    So if half of the 92 references used are before 1990, then a good 46 of them are after that? Forgive me for not counting.


    Most of the other citations refer to the literature that is useless without the context of the older studies. So, for example, someone could say that, based on this old study Rhodiola increases monoamines. An increase in monoamines is well known to have a beneficial effect on depression based on this new, impressive looking literature. The authors build the foundation of their argument on sand: the old, outdated literature. Most of the studies after the 1990's are based on Russian doctoral dissertations or some remark in a Russian study about Rhodiola.



    Is Par full of shit when he lays out the benefits of Sesathin because he sells it??


    Probably a combination of both. I don't know him, but if he sells it he will convince you that it works, and you will convince yourself of that as well. That's the beauty of marketing.



    I do not see 2 highly educated MD's lying or making up stories to sell 500 books at $5 bucks a pop about rhodelia. Yes I agree you have to consider it, but come on.


    They are not really "lying" per se, in that they are making OBVIOUSLY false statements, but the articles will be written in a very subjective way. I mean, read through the pages and note how praising they are of Rhodiola rosea, it's almost religous. It should be clear to anyone that this article is anything but objective.



    By the way, being highly educated doesn't necessary correlate with being higher morally. A good education can teach someone how to misrepresent facts very, very well.



    So why would they even mention the bipolar issue if all they are out to do is make a buck?


    Probably because they felt they should put at least SOMETHING in the warning section, otherwise it would look way to plastic and commericalized. I don't necessarily think they should have put something in about SSRI's being dangerous to combine with Rhodiola, but the article itself just isn't very valuable as far as the information and overall content. It's hardly anything like a meta-analysis, rather, it is a positive review.



    My only point in posting this is that indeed some well educated MD's saw nothing wrong with taking this combination. They did not mention it is a contraindication, nor have I ever seen it mentioned. It was playing devils advocate to the "it will kill you" banter that kept popping up.


    Well, just cause you're an MD or a PhD doesn't mean your not also businessman/woman, in fact many times those two go together like peanut butter and jelly. I mean for God's sake take Ward Dean for example, I'm sorry but the guy is an ideological whore for the Smart Drug companies. I think people tend to think that if someone has an education, that means they are more honest and good intentioned. I think that is a hugely blatant fallacy.
    "It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science." - Carl Sagan

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    I used 1.2 gr/day rhodiola rosacea (std. 3% rosavins) in conjunction with a daily psych. regimen consisting of 50 mg Zoloft, 40 mg dextroamphetamine, and 5 mg deprenyl. I didn't notice any negative effects from the inclusion of rhodiola; subjectively, I do think that it improved my short-term memory retention and improved my focus.



    What does that mean? It means that if I were to ever use the aforementioned regimen again I would not hesitate to up my rhodiola intake.



    What does that mean for anyone else? Not a damned thing. For all I know, someone else could try the same combination and drop dead.



    All of the pseudo-scientific arguments put forward by Dopamine ultimately amount to nothing substantial. It should be evident to anyone with a half-functional brain that there is a significant risk factor associated with ingesting a psychotropic compound that hasn't been studied to any appreciable extent - especially when that 'compound' is an herbal extract that is composed of myriad possibly active compounds, many of which haven't even been identified let alone studied.



    Even when we do extensively study the health effects of (x) we find data that flies in the face of any and all conclusions (for example, people who smoke a pack a day and live until they're 110 years old). Physiology is strange like that; there aren't really any absolutes. There are certainly no absolutely safe psychotropic drugs. You have resources that provide you with various empirical probabilities regarding the likelihood that a given side-effect will manifest itself, and that's about it. It really has nothing to do with whether or not something is 'safe' - it's more like "these are your odds, take 'em or leave 'em." Ultimately, it all boils down to this: how much risk are you willing to take to achieve your desired effect?



    ...



    That said, this thread stopped being productive a long time ago. If you guys want to debate the impact of financial motivation upon the integrity of academic research pursuits then take it to the Lyceum.

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    Game, set, match - Section 8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 8' date='Apr 2 2004, 09:46 PM
    I used 1.2 gr/day rhodiola rosacea (std. 3% rosavins) in conjunction with a daily psych. regimen consisting of 50 mg Zoloft, 40 mg dextroamphetamine, and 5 mg deprenyl.* I didn't notice any negative effects from the inclusion of rhodiola; subjectively, I do think that it improved my short-term memory retention and improved my focus.



    What does that mean?* It means that if I were to ever use the aforementioned regimen again I would not hesitate to up my rhodiola intake.



    What does that mean for anyone else?* Not a damned thing.* For all I know, someone else could try the same combination and drop dead.



    All of the pseudo-scientific arguments put forward by Dopamine ultimately amount to nothing substantial.* It should be evident to anyone with a half-functional brain that there is a significant risk factor associated with ingesting a psychotropic compound that hasn't been studied to any appreciable extent - especially when that 'compound' is an herbal extract that is composed of myriad possibly active compounds, many of which haven't even been identified let alone studied.



    Even when we do extensively study the health effects of (x) we find data that flies in the face of any and all conclusions (for example, people who smoke a pack a day and live until they're 110 years old).* Physiology is strange like that; there aren't really any absolutes.* There are certainly no absolutely safe psychotropic drugs.* You have resources that provide you with various empirical probabilities regarding the likelihood that a given side-effect will manifest itself, and that's about it.* It really has nothing to do with whether or not something is 'safe' - it's more like "these are your odds, take 'em or leave 'em."* Ultimately, it all boils down to this: how much risk are you willing to take to achieve your desired effect?



    ...



    That said, this thread stopped being productive a long time ago.* If you guys want to debate the impact of financial motivation upon the integrity of academic research pursuits then take it to the Lyceum.
    Bingo fucking bango,I hope Sec 8's thorough bitchsmacking here puts this all out idiocy campaign to rest

    Seriously,I have a good deal of respect for numerous posters on this board as they seem like an intuitive lot but this thread is just mudslinging backed w/pubmed studies.Brooklyn's thread in the garbage about David just elevated the whole mess to the next level.



    Do we really want this board,where intelligent discussion on the nature of man,as well as the ideal ways to improve one's physique/mental state,to deevolve into a free for all bb.com fuckfest?

    I think not



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    1- I've been on Lexapro for 8 months. I have taken gabatropin (contains rhodiola in fairly large amounts) at high doses and for extended periods of time. I never exhibited ANY of the "serotonin syndrome" that were listed. I felt great. Slight euphoria, increased concentration, decreased anxiety. No bad side effects whatsoever. My lexapro dose was moderately high--30mg/day, and at times I would take very large doses of rhodiola with no ill-effects. The only thing it did that could be considered "bad" was that it relaxed me enough at times that I felt like going to bed early (and slept wonderfully) or taking a nap.



    2- Coming off of Klonopin is not as hard as most make it out to be. Unless you are on extremely high doses, and have been long-term, you will be okay if you taper off slowly. Decreasing the dose gradually over the course of a month or two and the withdrawals will be minimal. If you go off it cold turkey, you can expect weeks of immeasurable anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia, aggrivation, palpitations, high blood pressure, etc. A small minority may get seizures if they do the cold turkey withdrawal protocol.

    As for benzo withdrawal being potentially fatal-- that is highly unlikely. Sure, there is the potential, but it is EXTREMELY unlikely.



    I came off of valium at 30mg/day for 1.5 years cold turkey and felt like absolute hell for a month. I didn't return to normal for another 3 or 4 months afterwards. I also used Klonopin (obtained illegally) at 2-4mg/day for around 9 months and tapered it by .5mg every 2 weeks. I had very mild withdrawal symptoms from this-- a little insomnia and anxiety. I was felt fine about 3 weeks after discontining the drug.



    No doubt-- if you don't taper a benzo the withdrawals will wreak havoc on you. You must taper if coming off. No tapering= month(s) of dizzy spells, severe insomnia, anxiety/agitation, skin crawling, generally feeling like you are losing your mind.



    And I seriously doubt RHO +SSRI's is a dangerous combo. I know for a fact that it is not dangerous to me personally.

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