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  1. #21
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    And again, forgive me if I'm coming off as a bit crass. But if you can be happy, content and even joyful, I don't get when the consuming anhedonia comes into play. The only thing I think I'm understanding is that you cannot alter it despite what compounds or activities you may partake in. You 'have' stated that, in high doses, amphetamine will do something. That's a step in the right (or wrong) direction. It indicates that some areas of your brain are desensitized where they shouldn't be.

    Many years ago, I was put on an SSRI due to MDD facilitated by a family tragedy. It helped. Prior to this, I dabbled here and there with the rave scene and it's most popular drug taken during one. After SSRI use, and the resultant positive treatment response (yet ongoing SSRI use), I couldn't feel a damn thing from any reasonable amount of this rave drug. Nothing. Others are flying. Me, zilch. Environmental factors can play a role in structural changes to the brain and how it functions. Were you and your brother living together or in close proximity when this phenomenon became pronounced?
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

  2. #22
    Junior Member Galaxyshock's Avatar
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    Neurophysiological differences in reward processing in anhedonics


    Thus, the present results showed that participants with elevated scores
    on Chapman's Physical Anhedonia Scale were more sensi-
    tive to possible punishments, showed deficits in the correct
    integration of response outcomes in their actions, and
    evidenced deficits in sustaining positive expectations of
    future rewards. This overall pattern suggests an effect of
    anhedonia in the motivational aspects of approach behavior
    rather than in consummatory processes.
    Indeed, recent research has shown that depletion of dopamine does not
    affect consummatory reactions, whereas the opioid and the gamma-aminobutyric
    acidergic systems in the ventral striatum are important in regulating the
    experiences of pleasure

  3. #23
    Junior Member Galaxyshock's Avatar
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    I'm the one who suffered of "consummatory anhedonia" couple months after withdrawing from Phenibut usage. It's perhaps not easy to relate to the condition if one hasn't experienced it. There's not really a lack of desire, one can get excited and be cheerful. But when it comes to experiencing a reward or pleasure, there's just nothing - no fulfillment, no burst of feel-good, no euphoria. Satisfaction can be felt for filling the need but it's not pleasurable either, it's just "I don't want anymore" and perhaps some calm etc. It may even be that this condition is not about "inability to experience pleasure" but that the brain doesn't create the response at all - if it was there, it could be experienced. Unlike in typical anhedonia where feeling and anticipating is significantly impaired but a pleasure-response is still there, just subjectively experienced as diminished or overpowered by negative affect.

  4. #24
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    Galaxyshock is right. I think that in normal anhedonia (which I would prefer to call just anhedonia, but it shall be "normal" now to clearly separate it from CA) the pleasure pathways themselves are not damaged, but it's the emotional system where the problems are at (remember that anhedonia is not just an inability to be happy, it's an inability to be sad too). Indeed it could be said that due to this emotional dysfunction one becomes unable to experience pleasure, whereas in my condition there just is no pleasure in the first place. It doesn't occur even with frigging heroin. A heavy SSRI habit can apparently make even opioids unenjoyable, but in CA the opioids don't work at all, the mu is entirely non-responsive.

    XSIV8, I see where you got me wrong. I'm definitely not happy. I'm miserable. But the point is that my condition doesn't itself prevent these things. It's like I'd be in constant pain. Pain is not the same as inability to be happy, yet it causes it in practice. See? It would be wrong to describe "pain" as an inability to be happy yet if you're always in pain you won't be happy very much. Similarly, my "happiness system" is not damaged per se, but due to CA my life lacks the features that make one happy. I wasn't miserable when my condition began, I thought whatever I had would pass and thus I was just cheerful. In anhedonia on the other hand you notice something's wrong because you're not cheerful! At this point, the lack of pleasure has became unbearable so no, I'm not happy anymore.

  5. #25
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxyshock View Post
    Neurophysiological differences in reward processing in anhedonics
    Thus, the present results showed that participants with elevated scoreson Chapman's Physical Anhedonia Scale were more sensi-
    tive to possible punishments, showed deficits in the correct
    integration of response outcomes in their actions, and
    evidenced deficits in sustaining positive expectations of
    future rewards. This overall pattern suggests an effect of
    anhedonia in the motivational aspects of approach behavior
    rather than in consummatory processes.
    Indeed, recent research has shown that depletion of dopamine does not
    affect consummatory reactions, whereas the opioid and the gamma-aminobutyric
    acidergic systems in the ventral striatum are important in regulating the
    experiences of pleasure
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxyshock View Post
    I'm the one who suffered of "consummatory anhedonia" couple months after withdrawing from Phenibut usage. It's perhaps not easy to relate to the condition if one hasn't experienced it. There's not really a lack of desire, one can get excited and be cheerful. But when it comes to experiencing a reward or pleasure, there's just nothing - no fulfillment, no burst of feel-good, no euphoria. Satisfaction can be felt for filling the need but it's not pleasurable either, it's just "I don't want anymore" and perhaps some calm etc. It may even be that this condition is not about "inability to experience pleasure" but that the brain doesn't create the response at all - if it was there, it could be experienced. Unlike in typical anhedonia where feeling and anticipating is significantly impaired but a pleasure-response is still there, just subjectively experienced as diminished or overpowered by negative affect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieno View Post
    Galaxyshock is right. I think that in normal anhedonia (which I would prefer to call just anhedonia, but it shall be "normal" now to clearly separate it from CA) the pleasure pathways themselves are not damaged, but it's the emotional system where the problems are at (remember that anhedonia is not just an inability to be happy, it's an inability to be sad too). Indeed it could be said that due to this emotional dysfunction one becomes unable to experience pleasure, whereas in my condition there just is no pleasure in the first place. It doesn't occur even with frigging heroin. A heavy SSRI habit can apparently make even opioids unenjoyable, but in CA the opioids don't work at all, the mu is entirely non-responsive.

    XSIV8, I see where you got me wrong. I'm definitely not happy. I'm miserable. But the point is that my condition doesn't itself prevent these things. It's like I'd be in constant pain. Pain is not the same as inability to be happy, yet it causes it in practice. See? It would be wrong to describe "pain" as an inability to be happy yet if you're always in pain you won't be happy very much. Similarly, my "happiness system" is not damaged per se, but due to CA my life lacks the features that make one happy. I wasn't miserable when my condition began, I thought whatever I had would pass and thus I was just cheerful. In anhedonia on the other hand you notice something's wrong because you're not cheerful! At this point, the lack of pleasure has became unbearable so no, I'm not happy anymore.
    I'm understanding this now. I also believe I experienced some degree of anhedonia after tapering off Phenibut. For a while after, I had fragmented sleep and was experiencing anhedonia...but I suppose where we'd differ is that I still found sex entirely enjoyable...BUT, now I'm remembering...the excitatory anticipation of sex was not really there..I could care less whether the wife or I did it or not. This went on for a while...but I still proceeded and it was enjoyable each and every time. You're the opposite. You can get riled up enough, but when the event or whatever finishes - nothing. This is a strange conundrum indeed. Galaxy, have you found that you've recovered from the condition. I remember you saying that the effects were still lingering after a long time...perhaps it was somewhere in another thread. I can't even fathom what type of treatment would alleviate this..especially in Vieno's case, where, seemingly, the condition wasn't precipitated by any use/abuse of a compound like an SSRI or Gaba agonist yet spontaneously presented and grew more pronounced with time. MAN! There has to be someone out there (perhaps the authors' of the study) that have some kind of idea for a treatment plan. That's just awful. I'm getting the fact that you can still have fleeting moments of happiness or joy but because of the fact that the euphoria or pleasure END is skewed or non-existant, it's driving you nuts and hurting you mentally. The MEANS to the end is still one that can be experienced where we can call it anticipatory. What occurs when you (if you've tried) go out on a full-blast/or high intensity run? Any runners' high at all? Endorphins doing anything? Ugh. I can't think of a single compound on the planet that may do what this would need...and I've learned a lot about all sorts of compounds and pharmaceuticals in my years from the exotic, to the atypical use drugs.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

  6. #26
    Junior Member Galaxyshock's Avatar
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    Yes my condition slowly shifted to "normal" anhedonia symptoms, so that I could experience some pleasure from basic things, even though anticipation and overall enjoyment became severely impaired. In a wierd way it's sort of logical - perhaps my mind/brain somehow "learned" not to anticipate / strive for pleasure after the period where only the actual pleasure was gone despite all the wanting/anticipating. There's something wierd and puzzling about the whole thing, which kinda fascinates me, even though the past 15 months since my withdrawal have been quite awful. I'm a lot better now, the typical anhedonia issues have slowly subsided and at this point things are looking quite good. I've been trying to help Vieno track down the culprit or causes but the problem is indeed extremely hard. GABA-B is somehow significantly involved, we have some suspicions and ideas for experimenting, but absolutely nothing conclusive.

  7. #27
    Junior Member Galaxyshock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Fairbanks View Post
    I wonder if a GABA antagonist would be helpful here? I feel I now have a deficit in declarative memory and an overall reduction in dopaminergic function due to 3 months of phenibut use (2-3 grams per day). This is the avenue I'm considering since the side effects haven't abated in a months time post pheny.
    Best nootropic for PB-withdrawal induced cognitive issues I found CDP-choline. It also increases dopamine receptor density.

  8. #28
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxyshock View Post
    Best nootropic for PB-withdrawal induced cognitive issues I found CDP-choline. It also increases dopamine receptor density.
    Sorry for the of off topic question... But I use 300 mgs of Alpha-GPC with 1800-2500 mgs of piracetam at around 10am, 5 days a week. Have you ever heard of Alpha-GPC causing fatigue, yawning, general tiredness? Is almost like clockwork that by noon, I'm having a couple yawning spells. When I don't take any alpha-gpc and instead take some Krill oil, I never get this... Although I still get an afternoon slump regardless of my lunch. That's most likely a result of a poor breakfast and some sleep deficit.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

  9. #29
    Junior Member Galaxyshock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XSIV8 View Post
    Sorry for the of off topic question... But I use 300 mgs of Alpha-GPC with 1800-2500 mgs of piracetam at around 10am, 5 days a week. Have you ever heard of Alpha-GPC causing fatigue, yawning, general tiredness? Is almost like clockwork that by noon, I'm having a couple yawning spells. When I don't take any alpha-gpc and instead take some Krill oil, I never get this... Although I still get an afternoon slump regardless of my lunch. That's most likely a result of a poor breakfast and some sleep deficit.
    Haven't looked much into Alpha-GPC. I went straight for CDP-choline as a choline source as it seemed superior to others. At least someone at longecity seems to have had a bit similar experience though:

    "I must admit that Alpha GPC is tricky ...... Other times it gives me a weird, dull mood, unwilling to say anything or talking to anyone, sleepiness even if I get a good night sleep. These side effects are not because of choline overload.They are not dose dependent, at least for me, and they occur from time to time even when I use it rarely, on low doses like 300 mg/a day."

    no idea what causes it though.

  10. #30
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxyshock View Post
    Haven't looked much into Alpha-GPC. I went straight for CDP-choline as a choline source as it seemed superior to others. At least someone at longecity seems to have had a bit similar experience though:

    "I must admit that Alpha GPC is tricky ...... Other times it gives me a weird, dull mood, unwilling to say anything or talking to anyone, sleepiness even if I get a good night sleep. These side effects are not because of choline overload.They are not dose dependent, at least for me, and they occur from time to time even when I use it rarely, on low doses like 300 mg/a day."

    no idea what causes it though.
    Yup. I may not feel weird or anything like that, but it's yawning and generally feeling tired. Today, no Alpha-GPC (which I thought was the preferred source. I've tried Cognizin with success) and not a hint of yawning or anything despite the weather being a bit gloomy today. Hmm. Guess I'm giving it up and if need be, I'll switch back. I try to use it sparingly anyways but am always cognizant of how the racetam or nootropic is making me 'feel' or if I do get any inkling of a headache. Thanks for finding that report! I have no idea what causes it either, but after eliminating as many variables as I could, it has to be the A-GPC.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

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    XSIV8, I think you understood very well what is this all about. You described the way this feels like very well. That's relieving, a lot of people fail to comprehend

    Considering the many similarities in phenibut/GHB abuse induced CA and my CA, I'm fairly sure the pathologies are the same. It's just that mine probably won't go away by itself but instead I must do a medical intervention in order to get rid of the CA even temporarily. If there only was someone with phenibut/GHB abuse induced CA who had found some substance to help - it probably would work for me too. But no-one has found such.

    I and even more so Galaxyshock have been developing new ideas and there are still some GABA-B, delta-opioid and cholecystokinin related hypotheses to be tested. Also there are still quite many drugs that potentially mediate pleausure that I haven't tested yet so I haven't lost my hope.

  12. #32
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieno View Post
    XSIV8, I think you understood very well what is this all about. You described the way this feels like very well. That's relieving, a lot of people fail to comprehend

    Considering the many similarities in phenibut/GHB abuse induced CA and my CA, I'm fairly sure the pathologies are the same. It's just that mine probably won't go away by itself but instead I must do a medical intervention in order to get rid of the CA even temporarily. If there only was someone with phenibut/GHB abuse induced CA who had found some substance to help - it probably would work for me too. But no-one has found such.

    I and even more so Galaxyshock have been developing new ideas and there are still some GABA-B, delta-opioid and cholecystokinin related hypotheses to be tested. Also there are still quite many drugs that potentially mediate pleausure that I haven't tested yet so I haven't lost my hope.
    Can you experience Runner's High? I'm just trying to see if your body's own endorphins are also rendered ineffective. Technically, if they are, you're in even more of a potentially dangerous position.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

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    Oh sry, I forgot to answer to that question. No I don't get runner's high although I'm not sure if I ever got that particular pleasure very strongly. I used to find excercise very pleasurable but it was more about the whole thing with all its outdoor sceneries and positive emotions etc., not so much about particularly straining excercises producing momentary pleasure. But I gotta say it's a very simplistic view to consider endorphins as the cause of runner's high, it has been shown many times that endorphins rarely contribute to pleasure be it induced by excercise or something else. For example, opioid antagonists do not block runner's high. The endogenous opioid system is much more complicated than a lot of people assume. It's role in pleasure is not well understood. What is known is that the mu receptors have a central role in drug (non-opioid too) induced pleasure, what is now known is what they and the other opioid receptors do in non-drug induced (natural) pleasure.

    Exogenous opioids most certainly do not have any effect on me and therefore it seems obvious that endorphins have neither, however I have not experienced hyperalgesia at all. Opioid antagonism with naltrexone produces no effect in me either.

  14. #34
    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieno View Post
    Oh sry, I forgot to answer to that question. No I don't get runner's high although I'm not sure if I ever got that particular pleasure very strongly. I used to find excercise very pleasurable but it was more about the whole thing with all its outdoor sceneries and positive emotions etc., not so much about particularly straining excercises producing momentary pleasure. But I gotta say it's a very simplistic view to consider endorphins as the cause of runner's high, it has been shown many times that endorphins rarely contribute to pleasure be it induced by excercise or something else. For example, opioid antagonists do not block runner's high. The endogenous opioid system is much more complicated than a lot of people assume. It's role in pleasure is not well understood. What is known is that the mu receptors have a central role in drug (non-opioid too) induced pleasure, what is now known is what they and the other opioid receptors do in non-drug induced (natural) pleasure.

    Exogenous opioids most certainly do not have any effect on me and therefore it seems obvious that endorphins have neither, however I have not experienced hyperalgesia at all. Opioid antagonism with naltrexone produces no effect in me either.
    Yes, the entire concept of "runner's high" is one of debate. Initially they believed that endorphins were the sole cause, then they thought Anandamide had something to do with it, then it progressed to the involvement of certain other endocannabinoids and finally nearly all the catecholamines. Regardless of the cause, I feel it. I know that it exists myself and it's not because I've completed the task as some research suggests. It's a distinct feeling of well-being. Almost certainly a mood lift although I wouldn't go so far as to say it's euphoria.. I'm more inclined to say it's a mood boost. Strangely enough, I get a different feeling when I'm lifting heavier and pumped than when I do with an interval jog/run/incline walk workout on the treadmill. I was more curious to know 'what' you felt after intense/vigorous exercise..like a solid run with a sprint near the end. No pleasure upon completion? I still think there's something biochemical going on. Endorphins are still somehow related to feelings of well-being. Again, we're forced to get back to the semantics of it all. Feeling of well-being? Pleasurable? I'm at an official loss but I think that it's most likely something, metaphorically speaking, that's cross-wired/damaged.

    Have you considered some of the novel compounds that are said to stimulate new neuron growth? Here's one that 'can' be obtained and perhaps is something that's worth looking into - at the very least: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/58442-nsi-189/

    Others swear by Cerebrolysin. Perhaps another avenue to explore...http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic...-cerebrolysin/

    The first one sounds most promising. I guess it depends on how far you'd want to go to find a solution and it "may" involve compounds that stimulate neurogenesis. I'm just trying to be helpful in some way since it's a terrible state to be in man. I mean, after exhausting avenues with certain meds, I'd even consider tDCS.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

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    Any links to some basic studies/analyses on the involvement of the endocannabinoid system in pleasure? My interest in the cannabinoids sorta vanished when I tested cannabis and got horrible effects (tachycardia, hypotension, trouble recalling, loss of coordination) and nothing pleasant or typical of cannabis. But I am willing to explore that route more, it has actually been my intention recently.

    I do not recall ever experiencing runner's high. Music and other stuff on the other hand used to make me extremely euphoric - perhaps even more so than most people - so the pleasure system definitely was working in general. Surely I did feel good after strenous excercise. I never was into running but I do recall feeling just wonderful after completing Cooper's, however I'm not sure if it was an euphoric feeling or more like emotional relief from being able to finally rest. It is my understanding that the runner's high is a very individual phenomenon. I remember someone writing on a forum that he gets more euphoria from running than from music. Needless to say I don't get runner's high these days either. Excercise is refreshing and may lift my mood given I'm not terribly depressed due to CA. I've found that they way CA these days puts me down can be so intense that the only thing that can lift me up is the hope of getting rid of it.

    I definitely get your worry over semantics here, I've spent a lot of time figuring out the meanings and definitions of various related concepts and terms. In fact some people got sick of my semantic harpings and claimed this is not so complicated but I still beg to differ So let me clarify how I see these things, these are NOT definitions (as you can tell from the wording) and only cover parts of the concepts' meanings, these are just to shed some light on the topic:

    Pleasure = a specific feeling that is not an emotion, not directly dependent on cognitive functions, easily drug inducable
    Euphoria = strong pleasure
    Good mood / feeling of well being = a cognitive, emotional phenomenon
    Enjoyment = perhaps an emotion that occurs when one is able to accept and receive pleasure

    For example, I do not really enjoy stuff anymore as there is never pleasure, but my enjoyment capacity itself is definitely not damaged. The moment I get pleasure (like with the huge dose of meth) I am able to enjoy it.

    There is so much more depth to these concepts in my mind but it's terribly difficult to shortly write something about them, a book should be written on the topic.

    As for the neuron growth thing, it's a bit of a long shot to go for something like that. May I ask why do you think this is something "cross-wired/damaged" and what does that even mean? In my view this is a highly specific dysfunction, NOT a general imbalance like some depressive phenomenon or the typical anhedonia may be. Therefore going for general neuron growth might be way too unspecific, way too slow, way too ineffective.

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    Senior Member XSIV8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieno View Post
    Any links to some basic studies/analyses on the involvement of the endocannabinoid system in pleasure? My interest in the cannabinoids sorta vanished when I tested cannabis and got horrible effects (tachycardia, hypotension, trouble recalling, loss of coordination) and nothing pleasant or typical of cannabis. But I am willing to explore that route more, it has actually been my intention recently.

    I do not recall ever experiencing runner's high. Music and other stuff on the other hand used to make me extremely euphoric - perhaps even more so than most people - so the pleasure system definitely was working in general. Surely I did feel good after strenous excercise. I never was into running but I do recall feeling just wonderful after completing Cooper's, however I'm not sure if it was an euphoric feeling or more like emotional relief from being able to finally rest. It is my understanding that the runner's high is a very individual phenomenon. I remember someone writing on a forum that he gets more euphoria from running than from music. Needless to say I don't get runner's high these days either. Excercise is refreshing and may lift my mood given I'm not terribly depressed due to CA. I've found that they way CA these days puts me down can be so intense that the only thing that can lift me up is the hope of getting rid of it.

    I definitely get your worry over semantics here, I've spent a lot of time figuring out the meanings and definitions of various related concepts and terms. In fact some people got sick of my semantic harpings and claimed this is not so complicated but I still beg to differ So let me clarify how I see these things, these are NOT definitions (as you can tell from the wording) and only cover parts of the concepts' meanings, these are just to shed some light on the topic:

    Pleasure = a specific feeling that is not an emotion, not directly dependent on cognitive functions, easily drug inducable
    Euphoria = strong pleasure
    Good mood / feeling of well being = a cognitive, emotional phenomenon
    Enjoyment = perhaps an emotion that occurs when one is able to accept and receive pleasure

    For example, I do not really enjoy stuff anymore as there is never pleasure, but my enjoyment capacity itself is definitely not damaged. The moment I get pleasure (like with the huge dose of meth) I am able to enjoy it.

    There is so much more depth to these concepts in my mind but it's terribly difficult to shortly write something about them, a book should be written on the topic.

    As for the neuron growth thing, it's a bit of a long shot to go for something like that. May I ask why do you think this is something "cross-wired/damaged" and what does that even mean? In my view this is a highly specific dysfunction, NOT a general imbalance like some depressive phenomenon or the typical anhedonia may be. Therefore going for general neuron growth might be way too unspecific, way too slow, way too ineffective.
    I'm almost thinking that there has been some sort of mutation in DNA (which often occurs in other diseases like the development of cancer) that could be triggered by environmental toxins. Think of that movie Erin Brockovich or whatever it was called. Of course, this is just one variable that 'may' be involved in the damage of DNA. I'm saying that "healthy", or dare I say, "normal" pleasure pathways and the processes involved have somehow become desensitized, skewed or damaged due to some extraneous factor(s).

    Merely guessing here based on the fact that you were once "healthy" as was your brother, only to later both become consumed with CA. To provide an example, albeit for an entirely different phenomenon, my brother developed a rare form of Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma and passed at 28. He was at the pinnacle of health at the time and seemingly the best candidate to beat such a cancer. He passed 10 mths later. When they described to me how such a disease is believed to have manifested, it was a combination of factors including being exposed/contracting Epstein-Barr Virus at a younger age, environmental variables and something to do with his genes. A perfect storm yet highly unlikely to occur in it's form. The type of NHL he had was most prevalent in Africa of all places but Canada has been seeing more cases. Similarly, and again, I'm guessing...there were compounding variables of sorts that led this 'damage' to occur to you.

    It's surely not psychosomatic since traditional opioids have no effect on you. You do offer some insight when you state that high dose meth will offer you some pleasure. I'd be looking more specifically into this. Why is it that this compound 'can' cause the effects you're experiencing, when for most inexperienced people, it'd lead to psychosis or cardiac conditions lol. Of course, this is an extremely inefficient treatment and would likely cause, well, death in the long-term. I've pointed to areas of neurogenesis simply because new neural growth offers a smorgasborg of advantages according to developing research from treating depression to parkinsons to dementias and Alzheimer's. Of course, it's too early to tell but I just don't see anything out there that could repair, what I see as (potentially) areas of your brain that are structurally and/or systemically (process-wise) damaged, altered, or whatever word you want to use to imply: "abnormal". I used cross-wired as a catch-all metaphor lol...simply because I can't explain it otherwise. It's the brain's processes being affected by some alteration that has occurred 4+ years ago. What the alteration "is" and what it's "origin" is - is well, unknown. I'm nearly certain that there is no known compound amongst the pharmacopia in existence that will address the problem. Licorice root will be unlikely. Cannibinoids? Nah. The growth of new neurons?? Perhaps. With cerebro, the repair of various brain processes, injuries (not unlike the damage incurred by the alcoholic due to repeated/consistent glutamate excitotoxicity) "may" have potential.

    Again, I'm grasping, but if I were you, after exhausting what's available to you through traditional medicine and looking at why huge dose meth exerts that particular effect when nothing else does - and then, looking at some of these novel compounds that promote BDNF and neurogenesis and/or repair. Yes, this would all take time and I know time is not on your side. You're young and you want to enjoy life now! I get that. At the very least, I hope that you consider this avenue during your struggle to recover as what you're experiencing has the entire brain involved along with all of it's complexity..Have you had any PET scans done? Any brain imaging or, more specifically, imaging while also performing certain tasks? I'm keen on how many neurologists and/or neurosurgeons would be interested in your case since it's surely rare. I hope I've clarified the cross-wired/damaged notion. I'm certain that there has been some alteration in your brain is causing this especially considering how long you've been through it and considering the fact that you weren't born this way. All paths (at least to the common doctor) would surely lead to major depressive disorder because that's just the big brush they're holding for you. Smaller brushes with more specific treatment regimens are, well, unknown at this point. Trial and error will obviously eliminate variables..but my gut tells me it's something else.
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

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    It's starting to seem that the nature of this condition may be either neurochemical issue or like you suspected XSIV8, damage/injuries - lesions in the brain.

    A very interesting article that is so far closest thing to discussing CA:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606924/

    Elimination of food reward was produced by lesions in the ventral pallidum but also for example by excess GABA-A (through micro-injection of muscimol to this part of the brain). So this could still be "just" a neurochemical deactivation that is treatable if we just dig enough through the possible mechanisms. But it may also be direct damage. The fact that meth is still able to produce some pleasure and the comorbid issues Vieno has, to me signs the neurobiological issue may be somewhere "nearby" that then deactivates ventral pallidum through releasing excess GABA or blocking sodium channels or something like that.

    I agree with you XSIV8 in the promotion of neurogenesis etc. as a possible route if the direct neurochemical modulation turns out to be a dead-end. The fact that the person who had GHB-withdrawal induced CA (to same extent as Vieno) for over a year but still managed to recover at least almost completely gives us hope that this is something that can turn a corner given the right conditions and is not permanent. Indeed help from a group of neurology-professionals wouldn't hurt with determining the exact pathogenesis.. I wonder how hard is it to get some real help like that.
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    I don't think it'd be very difficult to be "led" in the right direction. A well written and tactful email to any of the following people listed as authors of the study above could, in fact, lead you to a network iof interested parties in this realm. Being that it's so rare and not a consequence of substance abuse may just pique their own curiosity. I've just googled their names to see where they're at nowadays...links below.

    Kyle S. Smith,1,* http://www.dartmouth.edu/~psych/peop...lty/smith.html
    Amy J. Tindell,2 J. http://www.mccarter.com/Amy-J-Tindell/
    Wayne Aldridge,2,3 https://www.umms.med.umich.edu/facul...iqname=jwaynea
    and Kent C. Berridge, 2 http://www-personal.umich.edu/~berridge/

    1 McGovern Institute for Brain Research, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, University of Michigan
    2 Department of Psychology, University of Michigan
    3 Department of Neurology, University of Michigan
    * Corresponding Author McGovern Institute for Brain Research, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Room 46-6133, Cambridge, MA 02139, Email: kyless@mit.edu, Phone: 617-253-5740, Fax: 617-253-1599
    "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom; for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough". ~ William Blake

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    Thanks for the links. This may indeed open up opportunities. Will have to discuss with Vieno about the approach etc.

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    Do the certain cases of Phenibut/GHB-withdrawals induce those type of lesions or fuck up the hedonic hotspot activation - that is also a good question.

    Some evidence from humans also supports the idea that the ventral pallidum may be needed for normal motivation and hedonics. A recent clinical report describes a drug-addicted human patient with partial lesions to the ventral pallidum (overlapping with globus pallidus) who, after the lesions, “reported the disappearance of all drug cravings and remained abstinent from all recreational drugs other than an occasional glass of wine with dinner,” and “reported that he no longer experienced pleasure from drinking alcohol” (p. 786) [79].
    Some kind of absolute diminishment of pleasure does happen but it does not appear to be about the ability to feel pleasure.

    What defines the ability to feel or to experience pleasure, and what defines the creation of the pleasure-response itself, is the puzzling thing here.

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