• Libido/Energy? Do We Have Anything Yet?

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    • #380966

      096233fktlew
      Member

      I tried 20 minutes again, but I’m still getting no ‘reward hormones,’ just very mild physically localized pleasure. I guess GT isn’t 100%, after all.

      #380986

      096233fktlew
      Member

      The average cup of tea has 8mg of l-theanine, so I would be hesitant to point towards it as a possible contributor. I have 100mg l-theanine supplements here that do absolutely nothing.

      #380987

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650808]The average cup of tea has 8mg of l-theanine, so I would be hesitant to point towards it as a possible contributor. I have 100mg l-theanine supplements here that do absolutely nothing.[/QUOTE]

      L-theanine seems to be hit or miss for me and green tea extract much to my susprise doesn’t seem to do much.

      #380988

      096233fktlew
      Member

      GTE didn’t do anything for me, either. Most companies don’t describe the “E” part of the GTE. What are they extracting and how did they make a powder out of it without destroying everything? Heat, even heating GT too high, breaks down EGCG to CG. The only “extraction” process that I know of involves using alcohol as the solvent… not water. This, by itself, presents enormous problems. IMO, GTE is a worthless product made from tea leaf processing waste. For all we know, it’s all stems and collected leaf dust that is going into the alcohol extraction bin, and whatever comes out is then forcibly dried. GT is worthless once left out for too long due to oxidation. Alcohol is a strong oxidant. GT exposed in alcohol is, therefore, worthless.

      Today, I attempted to drink the tea in the morning and be sexual ~6 hours later in the day. It was an utter failure. As it stands, for me, sexual activity must occur directly next to consumption.

      Thinking back to the caffeine contribution to the effect, I am quick to discount its role. In college and highschool, I drank daily Coca-Cola… almost a whole liter per day… every day, and had no positive effect from the caffeine content, which is higher per glass than GT.

      #380989

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650810]GTE didn’t do anything for me, either. Most companies don’t describe the “E” part of the GTE. What are they extracting and how did they make a powder out of it without destroying everything? Heat, even heating GT too high, breaks down EGCG to CG. The only “extraction” process that I know of involves using alcohol as the solvent… not water. This, by itself, presents enormous problems. IMO, GTE is a worthless product made from tea leaf processing waste. For all we know, it’s all stems and collected leaf dust that is going into the alcohol extraction bin, and whatever comes out is then forcibly dried. GT is worthless once left out for too long due to oxidation. Alcohol is a strong oxidant. GT exposed in alcohol is, therefore, worthless.

      Today, I attempted to drink the tea in the morning and be sexual ~6 hours later in the day. It was an utter failure. As it stands, for me, sexual activity must occur directly next to consumption.

      Thinking back to the caffeine contribution to the effect, I am quick to discount its role. In college and highschool, I drank daily Coca-Cola… almost a whole liter per day… every day, and had no positive effect from the caffeine content, which is higher per glass than GT.[/QUOTE]

      This is the exact green tea extract that I have : [URL]http://www.aor.ca/html/products.php?id=56[/URL] let me know what you think about it.
      Have you ever tried matcha ? This might be a more natural more effective replacement for GTE – it does boost my libido, but in a way that’s somewhat different from drinking green tea. I have noticed the same about drinking green tea, that is you need to get sexual soon afterwards or else it’s pretty much back to square one.

      #380990

      096233fktlew
      Member

      Take a look at the ingredients from a supplement I once took for a month. They include some of the suspected “beneficial” compounds that relate to dopamine. This supplement had absolutely no effect.

      [TABLE=”width: 250″]
      [TR]
      [TD] Citrulline[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]1500 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Medium Chain Triglycerides[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]1000 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Pumpkin Seed Oil[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]1000 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]Velvet Bean Extract 15% L-Dopa, Seed[/COLOR][/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”][COLOR=#ff0000]400 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/COLOR][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Ginkgo Extract 24% Flavone Glycosides, 6% Terpene lactones, Leaf[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]120 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]L Theanine[/COLOR][/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”][COLOR=#ff0000]100 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/COLOR][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]Theobromine[/COLOR][/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”][COLOR=#ff0000]100 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/COLOR][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Asian Ginseng Extract[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]80 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Cayenne Powder[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]60 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]CoQ10[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]50 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Superoxide Dismutase[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]50 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]BioPerine Complex[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”]6 mg[SUP][SIZE=2]*[/SIZE][/SUP][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]BioPerine Black Pepper Extract 95% Piperine, Fruit[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”] [/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 3″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD]Ginger Extract 5% Gingerols, Root[/TD]
      [TD=”align: right”] [/TD]
      [/TR]
      [TR]
      [TD=”bgcolor: #000000, colspan: 2″][IMG]http://www.drugstore.com/img/spacer.gif[/IMG][/TD]
      [/TR]
      [/TABLE]

      #380991

      096233fktlew
      Member

      This may account for why the effect is so short-lived:

      [QUOTE][COLOR=#d3d3d3][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]Moreover, the findings are consistent with the relatively short plasma half-life of EGCG (approximately 4 hours) [[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]22[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode],[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]33[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]] as reflected by the return of plasma concentrations to baseline the morning after the last dose of EGCG. Other tea catechins have similarly short half-lives [[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]22[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode],[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]33[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]]. Thus, the effects of flavonoid-containing beverages on the vascular endothelium are unlikely to be attributable to EGCG or other catechins and are more likely attributable to other tea components or metabolites that persist in plasma and/or accumulate in vascular tissue.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

      #381001

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650814]This may account for why the effect is so short-lived:[/QUOTE]

      Good find !

      As to the product you listed above, well it should’ve had some sort of an effect on you. That said, I’m not a fan of multi-ingredients formula.

      #381016

      096233fktlew
      Member

      Here are my comments about the ingredients:

      L-Tyrosine: If the problem lies along the dopamine pathway, I think the least likely culprit would be a deficit of “raw material.” L-tyrosine ingestion doesn’t lead to extra dopamine unless you have an existing amino acid deficiency.

      Mucuna Pruriens: Same as above. L-DOPA is nothing more than a precursor a step above l-tyrosine. It does not stimulate production, but only facilitates synthesis when the body has been stimulated to do so.

      L-Theanine: This is highest in black tea, but the mean concentration among tested green teas is only 8 mg. It is alleged to have a relaxing effect, but I haven’t found this to be true while using it daily in a work environment, nor as a sleep aid. Said to increase GABA and dopamine, but by how much and in what areas of the brain? If the effect is on D2 receptors, it might explain the sedative rather than stimulating effect. In those for whom l-theanine is effective, I suggest that the action is on serotonin, not dopamine:

      [QUOTE]One study indicated that theanine had no effect on serotonin levels 25, whereas two other studies showed that theanine decreased brain serotonin [8, 27]. A fourth study (by the same author as the previous two) reported that theanine increased serotonin levels in some regions of the brain [10][/QUOTE]

      It may decrease serotonin, which is a plus, but the concentration in GT seems too low for marked effect.

      Theobromine: As l-theanine, we’re talking about tiny dosages in green tea. Even less than l-theanine… studies show 1.5 – 3 mg per cup of green tea. Supplemental theobromine is in the 50-100mg range. Due to the low concentration, I suspect its contribution to the effect of GT is minimal.

      EGCG: This, being the only compound that acts as an inhibitor of dopamine breakdown, is my strongest suspicion. Present in much higher amounts than any of the above compounds, but very hard for the body to absorb and also easily destroyed and degraded:

      [QUOTE]Oxidation of EGCG can occur in the dry tea leaves and in the tea liquid. The first step of oxidation is degradation of its EGCG while the green tea turns darker in color due to formation of thearubigens shown in the following reaction.[/QUOTE]

      The difficulty in absorbing EGCG is due to this rapid oxidation and breakdown. Studies show that green (and white) tea, paired with lemon juice increases the absorption of usable EGCG by a significant percentage. Aqueous EGCG survives best in a low pH environment. The normal pH of the stomach is too high for the majority of EGCG to make it into the intestine before it breaks down. IIRC, absorption before breakdown of EGCG in the gut is 1-3% of total ingested. It may be as high as 30% if stomach pH is adjusted with ascorbic acid or lemon juice.

      The same can be said for vitamins like vitamin C, or even supplements like fish oil. It’s almost impossible to buy an industrially manufactured version that is not either prone to rapid oxidation or already oxidized. The C in store bought orange juice is almost entirely oxidized by the time it is purchased. The EGCG in store bought green tea drinks (Snapple, etc) is hardly ever still present. When manufacturers suggest an EGCG concentration, they are talking about the concentration at the time of manufacture. Not the amount that remains in the product after years on the shelf, exposed to temperature fluctuations, water (in drinks and liquid extracts), UV light (in all clear glass bottle drinks) and time.

      This could explain why we are affected only by FRESH extractions of tea. As an experiment, I suggest brewing your normal concentration of tea, and leaving it overnight in the refrigerator. If the effect is diminished, then EGCG is the culprit. As far as I know, caffeine and l-theanine are virtually immune to oxidation, and so they will be spared.

      #381019

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650848]Here are my comments about the ingredients:

      L-Tyrosine: If the problem lies along the dopamine pathway, I think the least likely culprit would be a deficit of “raw material.” L-tyrosine ingestion doesn’t lead to extra dopamine unless you have an existing amino acid deficiency.

      Mucuna Pruriens: Same as above. L-DOPA is nothing more than a precursor a step above l-tyrosine. It does not stimulate production, but only facilitates synthesis when the body has been stimulated to do so.

      L-Theanine: This is highest in black tea, but the mean concentration among tested green teas is only 8 mg. It is alleged to have a relaxing effect, but I haven’t found this to be true while using it daily in a work environment, nor as a sleep aid. Said to increase GABA and dopamine, but by how much and in what areas of the brain? If the effect is on D2 receptors, it might explain the sedative rather than stimulating effect. In those for whom l-theanine is effective, I suggest that the action is on serotonin, not dopamine:

      It may decrease serotonin, which is a plus, but the concentration in GT seems too low for marked effect.

      Theobromine: As l-theanine, we’re talking about tiny dosages in green tea. Even less than l-theanine… studies show 1.5 – 3 mg per cup of green tea. Supplemental theobromine is in the 50-100mg range. Due to the low concentration, I suspect its contribution to the effect of GT is minimal.[/QUOTE]

      I agree with what you wrote on L-tyrosine – to me, this is pretty much a useless supplement, unless like you said one is deficient in it – there’s a rather slim chance for one to be deficient in it, unless one’s diet consists of cookies and non-protein foods. Aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase is the rate limiting factor in those under L-DOPA Tx. L-DOPA can also have a number if nasty side-effects, but that is dose dependent. It can boost libido in some which is also a side-effect of those under Tx for PD. I would think, from what I know about brain region and libido, that it can increase DA in the mesolimbic area, but I haven’t looked this up – all I know for certain is that an increase in DA in that specific region is needed for libido.

      I’ve always known for gyokuro and matcha to have the highest amount of theanine – that said, it seems certain black teas also contain a good deal. From experience, I can tell you that both I and my gf feel experience more relaxation after having matcha than any other teas we’ve tried and we’ve tried a lot, including black tea. The varieties of black teas we’ve tried (2) left us feeling revved up and anxious, which is thought to come as a resulf of the higher caffeine content, which apparently is related to water temp and not the type of tea.
      As to the amount of theanine per 200 ml cup, I’ve seen 25 to 50 mg – quite frankly, numbers seem to be all over the place. I’ve been searching Google Scholar and haven’t found much so far – I’d like to find a reliable paper with comparative amounts of L-theanine in various teas. That said, amount of theanine is going to vary a lot, like that of other polyphenols depending on the growing conditions, soil and time of harvest etc.

      Just for the sake of it, I’ll keep searching and will post a link on here if I can find anything informative. For what it’s worth, DatbTrue found GTE to have a pretty noticeable impact on his libido. What I can tell you is that the GTE that I have doesn’t yeild the same benefits that by the LEF did – LEF’s GTE did boost my libido, though mostly erectile function was favorably enhanced, but so was anxiety. I don’t feel anything but mild agitation from that I posted above.

      #381020

      jimmy
      Member

      It’d seem like you’re right about the L-theanine of black tea : [URL]http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=23817677[/URL] however, gyokuro isn’t regular green tea, so it’d be interesting to see the content of both regular back tea and gyokuro.

      That said, this isn’t going to be very useful to our situation, but is interesting nonetheless in a broader sense.

      What is the next substance that you wish to try Vest ? Have you contacted any other MD of late ?

      #381102

      096233fktlew
      Member

      [QUOTE=Chip Douglas;650852]It’d seem like you’re right about the L-theanine of black tea : [URL]http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=23817677[/URL] however, gyokuro isn’t regular green tea, so it’d be interesting to see the content of both regular back tea and gyokuro.

      That said, this isn’t going to be very useful to our situation, but is interesting nonetheless in a broader sense.

      What is the next substance that you wish to try Vest ? Have you contacted any other MD of late ?[/QUOTE]

      I experimented today with brewing black tea with a tablespoon of raw cacao nibs. This brew should contain caffeine, l-theanine and theobromine. I suspect it should contain all of the elements of green tea, save for the EGCG which is broken down by black tea’s fermentation.

      The result was a slight boost in sexual ability, but no ability to achieve the same “reward” sensation from either the act or orgasm. It was wholly unsatisfying and my mood is now low.

      My next experiment will be with an SSRE or dopaminergic Parkinson’s drug. I have an MD that might be game.

      #381103

      IsiahHind
      Member

      Sorry if you covered this already vest…. but have you checked your e2 lately? I was thinking it might be up and ruining things….. If my e2 is high I cant do crap with anything…

      #381104

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650945]I experimented today with brewing black tea with a tablespoon of raw cacao nibs. This brew should contain caffeine, l-theanine and theobromine. I suspect it should contain all of the elements of green tea, save for the EGCG which is broken down by black tea’s fermentation.

      The result was a slight boost in sexual ability, but no ability to achieve the same “reward” sensation from either the act or orgasm. It was wholly unsatisfying and my mood is now low.

      My next experiment will be with an SSRE or dopaminergic Parkinson’s drug. I have an MD that might be game.[/QUOTE]

      That’s going to be an interesting experiment for certain.

      #381105

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=rodstewart;650946]Sorry if you covered this already vest…. but have you checked your e2 lately? I was thinking it might be up and ruining things….. If my e2 is high I cant do crap with anything…[/QUOTE]

      Have you had your E2 tested of late ? I think you’ve had it done at some point in the past though – correct me if mistaken.

      #381128

      096233fktlew
      Member

      Switched back to DW GT after yesterday’s failure. All pleasure restored. :bomb:

      [QUOTE=Chip Douglas;650851]For what it’s worth, DatbTrue found GTE to have a pretty noticeable impact on his libido. What I can tell you is that the GTE that I have doesn’t yeild the same benefits that by the LEF did – LEF’s GTE did boost my libido, though mostly erectile function was favorably enhanced, but so was anxiety. I don’t feel anything but mild agitation from that I posted above.[/QUOTE]

      Dat is a normal, healthy man without libido problems. Those types of people get libido boosts from almost anything, including maca, l-dopa, a good night of sleep, exercise, etc.

      [QUOTE=rodstewart;650946]Sorry if you covered this already vest…. but have you checked your e2 lately? I was thinking it might be up and ruining things….. If my e2 is high I cant do crap with anything…[/QUOTE]

      [QUOTE=Chip Douglas;650948]Have you had your E2 tested of late ? I think you’ve had it done at some point in the past though – correct me if mistaken.[/QUOTE]

      I haven’t had a blood test in over six months. FWIW, E2 is always high because I have low SHBG. I’ll get a test by the end of the month. However, due to my low SHBG, I don’t think my E2 is ever relevant to regimens, medications, etc. It’s always going to be fucked.

      … and no, the high estrogen doesn’t increase the SHBG like it should.

      #381129

      jimmy
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650975]Switched back to DW GT after yesterday’s failure. All pleasure restored. :bomb:

      Dat is a normal, healthy man without libido problems. Those types of people get libido boosts from almost anything, including maca, l-dopa, a good night of sleep, exercise, etc.

      I haven’t had a blood test in over six months. FWIW, E2 is always high because I have low SHBG. I’ll get a test by the end of the month. However, due to my low SHBG, I don’t think my E2 is ever relevant to regimens, medications, etc. It’s always going to be fucked.

      … and no, the high estrogen doesn’t increase the SHBG like it should.[/QUOTE]

      The E2 question ws meant for Rodstewart, but that’s fine.
      Dat isn’t entirely healthy since he’s got sleep apnea and IIRC a few other odd issues, but I know what you meant by ”healthy” and I would tend to agree. I would also add that your issues appears to be somewhat different from mine, since our respective blood works don’t look quite the same – strangely, we do benefit from a common substance.

      I’ve mentioned this before, but I do very well on fish oil + PS
      But you’ve probably tried this combo to no avail.

      #381130

      IsiahHind
      Member

      [QUOTE=Chip Douglas;650948]Have you had your E2 tested of late ? I think you’ve had it done at some point in the past though – correct me if mistaken.[/QUOTE]

      Yeah, last time I had a test it was high… but that was awhile back… need to do it again… I keep putting it off.

      #381161

      096233fktlew
      Member

      [QUOTE=rodstewart;650595]I have used about three different brands and they all seem to work… just regular brands from the store… bigelow, stash, cant recall the other one… Doesn’t cure me but they help for some reason. anyways it has to be boosting T because my e2 has been hard to control. I have to use an A.I. more now if I am using the green tea.[/QUOTE]

      You ought to try one of the higher quality loose leaf teas, if you can. It is possible that you might be missing out on something. I bought some of the cheaper supermarket tea and it did help, but it always produced an effect that was markedly different and less worthwhile than the grades of teas that seem to contain more of the desired components.

      #381162

      IsiahHind
      Member

      [QUOTE=vestpocket;650614]You ought to try one of the higher quality loose leaf teas, if you can. It is possible that you might be missing out on something. I bought some of the cheaper supermarket tea and it did help, but it always produced an effect that was markedly different and less worthwhile than the grades of teas that seem to contain more of the desired components.[/QUOTE]

      Thanks, I definitely will now. sorry if this was asked already… but where is the best place to get dragonwell green tea online? I doubt any stores carry it around my area…
      An interesting side note… I notice body odor returns for me as well when doing this stuff…

      how bad is the gyno vest? are you using anything to combat it yet? high estrogen is a mother

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