Libido/Energy? Do We Have Anything Yet?

[vestpocket]

I didnt read the full thread but your paradoxal reactions to amphetamine and also high DHEA content may indicate predromal shizophrenia (most dont even get shizophrenia and it only relates to negative symptons wich you have) have you tried NAC, DAA or sarcosine? If not i would try those that would give an extra indication, i apoligize if this was covered before but at times my adhd didnt allow me to fully follow the thread.

Amphetamine increases my alertness and temporarily improves mood and focus, just like caffeine might. It does not increase sexual function or desire. That's why it's worthless for my primary complaint.

I take NAC twice daily. I haven't heard about the other things. I really don't think that treating schizophrenia will help with the clinical testosterone deficiency, though, which will leave sexual function in the dumps. If I were to take DAA or sarcosine, what would I be looking for to know that they were effective?

[MeDieViL]

I really should have fully red the thread, give me a day and ill report back, getting a bit too tired atm then i can offer more specific suggestions.

[rwac]

I am glad that you mention this. My adrenal output is high as demonstrated by my out of range DHEA. Dr. Shippen said that my adrenals were likely making up for my lack of testosterone (rather than lack of thyroid hormones.) Same idea.

I do often feel sleepy after meals. I always assumed it was a blood sugar problem. I have reactive hypoglycemia every so often. It results in a sudden feeling of extreme sleepiness, and if I do sleep -- I wake up in a sweat feeling almost too weak to get up and eat. That's rare, though. Once every few months.

Ah, that sounds like a drop in cortisol. These guys say that taking straight T3 helps when you have high RT3 levels: Reverse T3 and Thyroid resistance

However, it may not help your libido immediately. You need some amount of T4 to generate hormones. Once it "cleared", I found that adding in 3/4 grain armor at night helped significantly with libido.

This might be a good read for hormone modulation, Dr. Crisler apparently likes to use T3 to increase testosterone levels.
All Things Male - Hormone Modulation Therapy 101

[Flaw]

I've tried:
[teens:]Prozac, Paxil, Celexa, Effexor, Effexor XR, Wellbutrin, Wellbutrin XL, Paxil + Lithium, Luvox and Ativan.
[20s:] Trazodone, Tofranil, Wellbutrin + Adderall 40mg/day + Seroquel or Abilify, Klonopin and Seligiline.

Unless you see a "+", none of these medications were taken simultaneously. This spans a decade and a half of time.

Anti-anxiety-wise, I have been on Klonopin and Ativan. Neither did anything positive for me. Like Wellbutrin, the Ativan may as well have been candy. The issue is not performance anxiety, though, as my dick is currently worthless as a soaked noodle as I'm typing this. Chip Douglas might know what I'm talking about.

There was no "coming off" of alcohol. I never even liked the stuff or ever once drank by myself. I literally hate the feeling enough that a beer is about as appealing as motor oil. I haven't had anything at all to drink in many years. I was never an alcoholic -- I was just in my early 20s and doing the "bar scene" on weekends like everyone else so I'd be as sociable as everyone else that was drinking. I felt absolutely no different during that period than I do now. Sexual performance now is actually markedly worse than it was back then.

What was your dosage on trazodone and how long did you take it? Also was it taken by itself? Trazodone has been noted to increase erections. I personally experienced intense morning wood every morning on 50mg a night for sleep.

Pathophysiology of prolonged penile erection associat... [J Urol. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

Quote from the study

"We conclude that trazodone can enhance penile erection in man and propose a mechanism related to the alpha-adrenoceptor blocking properties of trazodone by interference with the sympathetic control of penile detumescence.

The reason I asked about the alcohol was based on your reaction it may tell us something.

As far as increasing dopamine goes you can simply supplement with L-dopa and see what happens. It will only be a short term plan as you will build tolerance but if you notice the desired effects from that maybe dabbing into (pharmaceuticals) may be advised for long-term use.

[agee]

Hmmm...

[vestpocket]

What was your dosage on trazodone and how long did you take it? Also was it taken by itself? Trazodone has been noted to increase erections. I personally experienced intense morning wood every morning on 50mg a night for sleep.

Pathophysiology of prolonged penile erection associat... [J Urol. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

Quote from the study

"We conclude that trazodone can enhance penile erection in man and propose a mechanism related to the alpha-adrenoceptor blocking properties of trazodone by interference with the sympathetic control of penile detumescence.

The reason I asked about the alcohol was based on your reaction it may tell us something.

As far as increasing dopamine goes you can simply supplement with L-dopa and see what happens. It will only be a short term plan as you will build tolerance but if you notice the desired effects from that maybe dabbing into (pharmaceuticals) may be advised for long-term use.

I took the Trazodone for a month. I believe the dose was 20mg, but I will have to check the old bottle. Just like in your case, it was prescribed for sleep problems along with the Wellbutrin. From the study you posted, wouldn't the activity be Viagra-like in that it is more of a blood flow medication than a libido/stimulation medication?

The whole regimen that my GP prescribed to allow me to keep my job and possibly have sex with a gorgeous nurse that was pursuing me was: 350 mg Wellbutrin, 20mg Adderall 2 times per day, 25mg Trazodone and Abilify at night, plus Cialis.

My "male hormone specialist" wanted 250 IU hCG EOD plus sublingual testosterone drops under the tongue first thing in the morning (he claimed it would "pick me up" like coffee... TOTAL bullshit... did nothing) plus a few drops massaged into the head of my penis daily.


I took a bottle of NOW brand L-dopa. It didn't do anything, unfortunately. I was also on experimental T3 at the time, to see if that would help with... well... anything. I bought PEA to add to the L-dopa, but never took it after reading that an MAOI-B inhibitor would be necessary to experience the effects. At the time, I did not have seligiline to fill that role.

Amphetamine is said to cause a dopamine increase, is it not? It only makes me feel like I've just had coffee.

I was somewhat euphoric on a combination of 350mg Wellbutrin plus 2mg of liquid selegiline. I have heard that this combination is dangerous -- but, why is it dangerous? Does the effect reveal anything about what could work for me?

[Ex Dubio]

I took the Trazodone for a month. I believe the dose was 20mg, but I will have to check the old bottle. Just like in your case, it was prescribed for sleep problems along with the Wellbutrin. From the study you posted, wouldn't the activity be Viagra-like in that it is more of a blood flow medication than a libido/stimulation medication?

Primarily, yes. That said, medications like trazodone -- particularly combined with a PDE-5 inhibitor -- bypass the vast majority of negative regularity control on erectile function, so if you still couldn't obtain an erection, I'd say there's something neurological at work. (Whether CNS or PNS.)

The whole regimen that my GP prescribed to allow me to keep my job and possibly have sex with a gorgeous nurse that was pursuing me was: 350 mg Wellbutrin, 20mg Adderall 2 times per day, 25mg Trazodone and Abilify at night, plus Cialis.

Do keep in mind that both Wellbutrin and Adderall can have somewhat inconsistent effects on libido and erectile function for a number of reasons. Many find both drugs to improve one or both parameters, but others find the drugs to decrease overall sexual function. They're definitely not a guarantee.

My "male hormone specialist" wanted 250 IU hCG EOD plus sublingual testosterone drops under the tongue first thing in the morning (he claimed it would "pick me up" like coffee... TOTAL bullshit... did nothing) plus a few drops massaged into the head of my penis daily.

Yeah, that's pretty odd, and I rather doubt much absorption would occur without a very lengthy application process. Nothing fundamentally wrong with the HCG, but if your problem is either SHBG-related or neurological, the HCG is unlikely to do much.

I took a bottle of NOW brand L-dopa. It didn't do anything, unfortunately. I was also on experimental T3 at the time, to see if that would help with... well... anything. I bought PEA to add to the L-dopa, but never took it after reading that an MAOI-B inhibitor would be necessary to experience the effects. At the time, I did not have seligiline to fill that role.

Dopamine-modulating drugs are fairly inconsistent when it comes to libido.

Amphetamine is said to cause a dopamine increase, is it not? It only makes me feel like I've just had coffee.

Amphetamine definitely induces DA release, more than just about any other legal drug. But that doesn't mean its an instant libido cure. There's also huge inter-individual sensitivity differences to amphetamine, and you sound like you're just less sensitive than others. Probably COMT Val/Val, among other things.

I was somewhat euphoric on a combination of 350mg Wellbutrin plus 2mg of liquid selegiline. I have heard that this combination is dangerous -- but, why is it dangerous? Does the effect reveal anything about what could work for me?

Only danger I can think of is blood pressure; make sure the combination doesn't make you hypertensive, but otherwise probably fine.

[Flaw]

I'll reply to your post later but something just popped into my head, I'm not sure if someone has already posted this but Have you looked into cushing's syndrome? You said you do have elevated cortisol levels correct?

[Flaw]

I took the Trazodone for a month. I believe the dose was 20mg, but I will have to check the old bottle. Just like in your case, it was prescribed for sleep problems along with the Wellbutrin. From the study you posted, wouldn't the activity be Viagra-like in that it is more of a blood flow medication than a libido/stimulation medication?

The whole regimen that my GP prescribed to allow me to keep my job and possibly have sex with a gorgeous nurse that was pursuing me was: 350 mg Wellbutrin, 20mg Adderall 2 times per day, 25mg Trazodone and Abilify at night, plus Cialis.

My "male hormone specialist" wanted 250 IU hCG EOD plus sublingual testosterone drops under the tongue first thing in the morning (he claimed it would "pick me up" like coffee... TOTAL bullshit... did nothing) plus a few drops massaged into the head of my penis daily.


I took a bottle of NOW brand L-dopa. It didn't do anything, unfortunately. I was also on experimental T3 at the time, to see if that would help with... well... anything. I bought PEA to add to the L-dopa, but never took it after reading that an MAOI-B inhibitor would be necessary to experience the effects. At the time, I did not have seligiline to fill that role.

Amphetamine is said to cause a dopamine increase, is it not? It only makes me feel like I've just had coffee.

I was somewhat euphoric on a combination of 350mg Wellbutrin plus 2mg of liquid selegiline. I have heard that this combination is dangerous -- but, why is it dangerous? Does the effect reveal anything about what could work for me?

Well, yes and no. It will have viagra like effects but works in a completely different way. I'm really starting to think your adrenals are over producing adrenaline, and cortisol. Adrenaline is serious erection killer. High cortisol levels also drop testosterone. Could be a reason why even after treatment your testosterone doesn't want to elevate much. It's because low T isn't the problem.

That said, drugs like wellbutrin would only make your problem worse by increasing norepinephrine.

Ampthetamine does increase dopamine. You don't need a moai to feel PEA but it will help a lot.

Exdubio commented on the blood pressure thing but it's one of those combos that you really don't know what your gonna get so it's ill advised.

I think your doctors have been treating your symptoms and not your problem. Never go to a GP if you want to get to the problem. Always go to specialists.The big mistake many people make is to go to a GP with depression or anxiety symptoms and the Dr. gives them xanax or zoloft. The doctor should immediately send the patient for a psych evaluation and not try to treat something he does not specialize in. You've probably seen a endocrinologist but if you haven't get a specific cortisol test. One that tests you through out the day and not just a one time deal. A one time deal is not accurate at all. It's the same thing with getting your blood sugar tested once. It could be normal at the time but change drastically later.

[vestpocket]

Well, yes and no. It will have viagra like effects but works in a completely different way. I'm really starting to think your adrenals are over producing adrenaline, and cortisol. Adrenaline is serious erection killer. High cortisol levels also drop testosterone. Could be a reason why even after treatment your testosterone doesn't want to elevate much. It's because low T isn't the problem.

That said, drugs like wellbutrin would only make your problem worse by increasing norepinephrine.

Ampthetamine does increase dopamine. You don't need a moai to feel PEA but it will help a lot.

Exdubio commented on the blood pressure thing but it's one of those combos that you really don't know what your gonna get so it's ill advised.

I think your doctors have been treating your symptoms and not your problem. Never go to a GP if you want to get to the problem. Always go to specialists.The big mistake many people make is to go to a GP with depression or anxiety symptoms and the Dr. gives them xanax or zoloft. The doctor should immediately send the patient for a psych evaluation and not try to treat something he does not specialize in. You've probably seen a endocrinologist but if you haven't get a specific cortisol test. One that tests you through out the day and not just a one time deal. A one time deal is not accurate at all. It's the same thing with getting your blood sugar tested once. It could be normal at the time but change drastically later.

I will check out cortisol. I've been meaning to get one of those multi-sample kits.

My IGF-1 is 138. In a study titled, "IGF-1 levels are significantly correlated with patient-reported measures of sexual function" the stated lowest threshold for proper sexual function is 149. The optimal IGF-1 value is 350.

So, is there no drug out the that raises dopamine?!

[Benson]

So, is there no drug out the that raises dopamine?!

Sinemet, Dostinex, Parlodel, Pramipexole, Roprinirole, Wellbutrin but IIRC, you have used most or all of these without change to your symptoms.

[Flaw]

I will check out cortisol. I've been meaning to get one of those multi-sample kits.

My IGF-1 is 138. In a study titled, "IGF-1 levels are significantly correlated with patient-reported measures of sexual function" the stated lowest threshold for proper sexual function is 149. The optimal IGF-1 value is 350.

So, is there no drug out the that raises dopamine?!

High cortisol levels will also decrease IGF-1. Hopefully we are on to something here.

At this point I believe cortisol control is more important then trying to raise dopamine. Let's put that aside for now. You need to have a 24 hour cortisol test. Also it would be good to test ACTH also to help diagnose or rule out a condition.

Possible problems here could be with the pituitary gland or some sort of dysfunction with the adrenal glands.

[Ex Dubio]

I will check out cortisol. I've been meaning to get one of those multi-sample kits.

My IGF-1 is 138. In a study titled, "IGF-1 levels are significantly correlated with patient-reported measures of sexual function" the stated lowest threshold for proper sexual function is 149. The optimal IGF-1 value is 350.

Yeah, but sadly this ties into what Funk was talking about before. Many chronic conditions can reduce libido, and -- it turns out -- many chronic conditions also reduce IGF-1. Indeed, serum IGF-1 is highly responsive to various forms of stress and well as chronic disease. Given that libido increases are not commonly reported with physiological-dose GH supplementation, I doubt IGF-1 has any causal role in libido, but is instead correlated with factors that also tend to negatively influence libido.

So, is there no drug out the that raises dopamine?!

You've tried many, if not all, of the common drugs that raise DA. DA is clearly not the problem.

[Jin Xie]

Yeah, but sadly this ties into what Funk was talking about before. Many chronic conditions can reduce libido, and -- it turns out -- many chronic conditions also reduce IGF-1. Indeed, serum IGF-1 is highly responsive to various forms of stress and well as chronic disease. Given that libido increases are not commonly reported with physiological-dose GH supplementation, I doubt IGF-1 has any causal role in libido, but is instead correlated with factors that also tend to negatively influence libido.\

Chronic conditions usually increase phasic NE reactivity which kills libido and performance, I believe. But so does the attenuation agent, 5-HT. I am trying to find the balancing act here, myself.

Increasing IGF-1 and GH levels has never been the answer for me. Indeed, my IGF-1 levels are curiously high given my chronic illness. Though I exercise hard and am in good shape in many respects, and that likely plays a part. In any event, IGF-1 doesn't mean much if you lack Delta sleep as is the case for me and so many others on this board with chronic conditions.

[vestpocket]

Sinemet, Dostinex, Parlodel, Pramipexole, Roprinirole, Wellbutrin but IIRC, you have used most or all of these without change to your symptoms.

I'm keeping a note to try for Parlodel, Sinemet or low dose Naltrexone.

You need to have a 24 hour cortisol test. Also it would be good to test ACTH also to help diagnose or rule out a condition.

Possible problems here could be with the pituitary gland or some sort of dysfunction with the adrenal glands.

I will buy a 24 hour cortisol test. I know my ACTH is normal, and I had a pituitary MRI to rule out a pituitary tumor.

FWIW, I abstained from attempted masturbation for 7 days. I put 5mg of transdermal testosterone on my wrists and took 1000mg of phosphydatyl serine in 3 divided doses. I masturbated, had a terrible feeling orgasm and now feel extremely, extremely exhausted and depressed. I thought the PS would help with cortisol.

[Benson]

I'm keeping a note to try for Parlodel, Sinemet or low dose Naltrexone..

If you have already used Mucuna pruriens, you have already tried Sinemet for all intents and purposes and I was pretty sure you said you had already tried bromocriptine...maybe just carbergoline but their MOAs are very similar.

Your issues likely do not involve dopamine.

[Flaw]

I will buy a 24 hour cortisol test. I know my ACTH is normal, and I had a pituitary MRI to rule out a pituitary tumor.

FWIW, I abstained from attempted masturbation for 7 days. I put 5mg of transdermal testosterone on my wrists and took 1000mg of phosphydatyl serine in 3 divided doses. I masturbated, had a terrible feeling orgasm and now feel extremely, extremely exhausted and depressed. I thought the PS would help with cortisol.

Make sure you post your results when you get them.

I don't think 7 days of PS would result in much noticeable effects in your case. It could take weeks. Some of the other drugs your on though could be reducing any positive effects of the PS. It's something you'd have to try on it's own.

Make sure to stop taking the PS though so that you get accurate readings on your test.

[vestpocket]

I don't mean to bump this prematurely, but I just went for bloodwork sans PS supplementation. I should be able to get yet another decent cortisol metric.

The doctor I'm seeing is popular enough to draw in patients all the way from Kentucky (I live in PA.) He started his practice in Europe, so his understanding of the endocrine system is MUCH more advanced than anything you'd typically deal with here in America.

He balked at my single digit SHBG. He circled the value in pen and said he wants to see it in the 50 nmol/L range! I agree. He mentioned that it not only transports and is REQUIRED FOR TESTOSTERONE TO BE UTILIZED BY CELLS, but that it carries thyroid hormones into cells as well. This would explain the elevated TSH despite the perfecly adequate T3 and T4. I mentioned nothing to him about my particular view on that particular protein. He expressed all of this to me immediately upon noticing the low SHBG trend.

He was also concerned about the RT3, but he didn't mention anything about Wilson's Temperature Syndrome or a protocol.

Amazing. No doctor shopping here. I found him randomly.

Another board member, "SexuallyBlessed," who has symptoms nearly identical to mine, notes that alcohol destroys his ability to have an erection or orgasm. If I have even two full beers (which is extremely rare) it will *completely eradicate* any possibility of sexual interest or erection. This is how we know that is not anxiety related.

QUESTION: I feel like this might be key in understanding why we experience anhedonia 9 out of 10 times. What is it, neurotransmitter-wise, that alcohol effects?

[Jin Xie]

I don't mean to bump this prematurely, but I just went for bloodwork sans PS supplementation. I should be able to get yet another decent cortisol metric.

The doctor I'm seeing is popular enough to draw in patients all the way from Kentucky (I live in PA.) He started his practice in Europe, so his understanding of the endocrine system is MUCH more advanced than anything you'd typically deal with here in America.

He balked at my single digit SHBG. He circled the value in pen and said he wants to see it in the 50 nmol/L range! I agree. He mentioned that it not only transports and is REQUIRED FOR TESTOSTERONE TO BE UTILIZED BY CELLS, but that it carries thyroid hormones into cells as well. This would explain the elevated TSH despite the perfecly adequate T3 and T4. I mentioned nothing to him about my particular view on that particular protein. He expressed all of this to me immediately upon noticing the low SHBG trend.

He was also concerned about the RT3, but he didn't mention anything about Wilson's Temperature Syndrome or a protocol.

Amazing. No doctor shopping here. I found him randomly.

Another board member, "SexuallyBlessed," who has symptoms nearly identical to mine, notes that alcohol destroys his ability to have an erection or orgasm. If I have even two full beers (which is extremely rare) it will *completely eradicate* any possibility of sexual interest or erection. This is how we know that is not anxiety related.

QUESTION: I feel like this might be key in understanding why we experience anhedonia 9 out of 10 times. What is it, neurotransmitter-wise, that alcohol effects?

Remind me of the range, but 50 sounds on the high side. My SHBG is at the top of range, I believe around there, and thus my free and bioavailable T levels are mid range even though my TT is on the upper end. The good thing is I am protected against free DHT and estradiol.

There is some other guy that has sexual issues, that insists it's from low SHBG. There is a long thread, from several months back, where many of us disagreed with his postulations. I don't know if this is the same person or not. Just an FYI.

P.S. This looks like same person, same thread. Still think you are barking up the wrong tree. Folks take winstrol to reduce SHBG if I recall correctly, and I am not aware of that eliminating libido. In any event, you should be able to elevate it through various measures, to test your theory.

[vestpocket]

P.S. This looks like same person, same thread. Still think you are barking up the wrong tree. Folks take winstrol to reduce SHBG if I recall correctly, and I am not aware of that eliminating libido. In any event, you should be able to elevate it through various measures, to test your theory.

They may want to lower it because it is too high. Like cortisol, too little is bad -- and too much is bad. The winstrol folks are presumably abusing steroids, so many of the "normal human endocrinology" rules are already broken. Plus, they aren't trying to reduce it to the single digit level! I know 20 or so natural men with low SHBG and it has killed their drives.



I had another androgen spike a few days ago. I began to smell like a normal human being. Out of nowhere, sitting around, apocrine glands start to function again and I have moist and smelly armpits. My sex drive and ability to feel "good" from masturbating returned. Limited erectile capacity, but at least the drive/compulsion returned.

It lasted three days. It's now over, and if I work out for an hour, I smell like nothing. Zero armpit odor. Amazing, eh? No apocrine output, no food for odorous bacteria. ZERO erectile capacity, of course.