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  1. #21
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DavidWebb @ Jun 5 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Remember not everyone's sleep is fucked up by amps. Some of us sleep better with them. Also I am pretty certain the cortisol levels normalize with chronic use.

    This leaves us with nutrition. Just because one's account of their friends in high school are skinny-fat dead beats, doesn't mean that some of us that take amphetamine are not responsible, half way intelligent people. It only takes a little initiative to consume adequate calories. After all, amphetamines for many lead to heightened awareness and increased functionality, which translates to taking care of what needs to get done, ie: eating.

    So if one can balance sleep, nutrition and cortisol, then what's left? Dopamine. And of course this tends to increase libido in most, providing that the levels are not too out of balance.

    I'm sure there is way more to it, but I am just trying to see the glans...er....glass, as half full.</div>

    No one said amphetamines raised cortisol. Sorry if it seemed like I did. Just to make sure I highlighted what I think you missed.

    All the above suggested would fall into managing cortisol/nutrition (which could be on in the same) while on amps.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToddinWC @ Jun 5 2009, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't have any studies to confirm my beliefs derived from personal experience, but amphetamines most likely have a drastic effect on testosterone levels....

    Obviously, I can't think of any substance more catabolic than amphetamine (maybe alcohol is a close 2nd).
    From personal experience, when I was RX'ed Dexedrine and Adderal IR and was consuming heroic doses on a 3-day on, 3-day off pattern for months on end to study for exams, my body was literally deteriorating....Of course my workouts would be extremely intense, but I was never able to achieve that "pumped" look and volumized fullness of the muscles, that I can usually achieve after 25 pushups...I think that most of this had to do with the extreme dehydration and lack of nutrition while under the influence, and then the viscous cycle of binge eating and sleeping on days where I ceased use....

    Have you ever taken a look at all of your friends who were undergoing amphetamine/methylphenidate treatment in grade school and highschool? In my observations, all of them are dead beat losers with a plethora of physical and mental health issues...</div>


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Jun 5 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Good points Todd.

    However, all of those symptoms point more so towards a spike in cortisol. Albeit this would (in theory) decrease testosterone, but I believe it would be as a "result of" rather than "cause of" situation. Thus raising the obvious question of what would happen if we could manage cortisol while on amphetamines?</div>


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToddinWC @ Jun 5 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Good observation Jakeshorts,

    I never really put the impact on cortisol into perspective, but I couldn't imagine that trying to manage it with supplements that "supposedly" effect cortisol levels would effect the strong effects of amphetamine and methylphenidate....

    For most users, and this is just from experience, all amphetamine use inevitably increases stress and has to drastically raise cortisol....I blame is primarily on the effect on sleep...</div>




    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not that guy. @ Jun 5 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My personal experience is that libido and erection aren't intertwined. I have zero libido and can still get it up.
    It's probably pretty uncommon, but I just have high nitric oxide and norepinephrine.</div>

    What does this have to do with those statements contradicting each other?
    Resident Badger
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  2. #22
    Senior Member ToddinWC's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DavidWebb @ Jun 5 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Remember not everyone's sleep is fucked up by amps. Some of us sleep better with them. Also I am pretty certain the cortisol levels normalize with chronic use.

    This leaves us with nutrition. Just because one's account of their friends in high school are skinny-fat dead beats, doesn't mean that some of us that take amphetamine are not responsible, half way intelligent people. It only takes a little initiative to consume adequate calories. After all, amphetamines for many lead to heightened awareness and increased functionality, which translates to taking care of what needs to get done, ie: eating.

    So if one can balance sleep, nutrition and cortisol, then what's left? Dopamine. And of course this tends to increase libido in most, providing that the levels are not too out of balance.

    I'm sure there is way more to it, but I am just trying to see the glans...er....glass, as half full.</div>


    I fully understand where you're coming from as I used to consider myself as one of the "intelligent speed users"

    I would always make sure to supplement, consume more water, and substitute whole food with protein shakes to ensure nutrition...

    Apmhetamines improve every aspect of my life...I am just legally forced to not use them. Either way though, There is no way that I can consume as many calories on amp then I can when I'm sober, and you lose a ton of muscle mass while using speed...

  3. #23
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    I have no idea what's going on at all. I don't understand what anyone is saying, really. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif[/img]

    Dopamine negatively regulates LH to an extent, correct? This is the most basic of basic. I guess we are looking for extrinsic factors that equilibrate this, then. Even more crude a correlation:

    MPH->NO->GH->PRL->Low test

    This isn't fair. I'm trying to think w/o amphetamines, as usual. Which work for about 10 minutes. And then I crash. For a couple of days.

  4. #24
    Senior Member DavidWebb's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not that guy. @ Jun 5 2009, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MPH->NO->GH->PRL->Low test</div>

    I have seen plenty of evidence that suggests MPH -> lowered prolactin.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToddinWC @ Jun 5 2009, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>and you lose a ton of muscle mass while using speed...</div>

    well in the 300 mg range, yes. it also comes down to whether one is an ecto/meso/endo. ectos have enough trouble keeping muscle in the first place.

  5. #25
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DavidWebb @ Jun 5 2009, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have seen plenty of evidence that suggests MPH -> lowered prolactin.</div>

    Yup. My bad.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Frangible's Avatar
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    1. You're not a rat. Abuse human studies are irrelevant unless you're abusing it. TAAR receptors are radically different across species, even human/monkey amp studies show very different results at similar/equivalent low-ish doses. Go look up the genetic sequences for the TAAR1 receptor (main site of AMP's actions, only blocks DAT at stupid high doses) and you will see it is radically different across species, moreso than other receptors. Finally, therapeutic dosing doesn't cause neurotransmitter depletion FFS.

    2. As others have mentioned, data on therapeutic amp is lacking here but MPH human studies show minor cortisol elevations for the first two weeks of treatment, after which they fell and consistently stayed at the normal range. Only long-term hormonal effect was small increase of DHEA. No changes to T at any time. If you're that concerned, stop taking AMP or get regular cortisol tests done.

    3. In studies on hyperproclatemia patients, even the high end of therapuetic dosing of AMP was unable to do much (yet direct agonists like bromocriptine still work). In depressed patients, AMP lowers cortisol. ADD patients have also been shown in some studies to have hypocortisolemia, but I believe in the above MPH study all were in the normal range to begin with.

    4. Drugs/libido is a very complex thing with tremendous individual variation. AMP has factors that can increase libido (DA), and factors that can decrease libido (goal preservation behaviors), or effect erection quality and time to orgasm (vasoconstriction) while not affecting llibido. Studies on bupropion show very similar things.

    5. Taking 300mg at a time, while being quite amusing like the Drax video, means the behavioral effects alone you mention (dehydration, anorexia, sleep deprivation) are going to take their physical toll even if the drug itself doesn't.

    6. Ephedrine is closely related, though it lacks AMP's DA affects. It has mostly positive long-term results in muscle development.

    Most bodybuilders abuse the shit out of stimulants, never stopped them from being able to bench press your car. The sympathetic nervous system has a severe case of bigorexia and loves skeletal muscle tissue like the ACLU loves terrorists and murderers. The SNS is more than happy to take to resources going to the GI and skin and put them all into the muscle. Small intestine? Fuck that ectomoph, we've got some nice delts to fuel instead.

    Catabolization is a last resort, and if anything AMP, like EPH, is going to fight long and hard to prevent it. Drink your protein shake, or your SNS will be a saaaaad panda.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Remember not everyone's sleep is fucked up by amps. Some of us sleep better with them.</div>

    Yep, many times I've woken up and been unable to relax and fall asleep until I've popped a dexedrine. A lack of dopamine will fuck you up as surely as an excess of it.

    Balance, grasshoppas.
    <span style="color:#660000"><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial Narrow">"... </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Arial Narrow"><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#8b0000">fresh bread, which deforms elastically is not frangible." --Wikipedia</span></span></span>

  7. #27
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    I am pretty sure dex would be fucking awesome at body recomposing or shedding some fat and still kicking ass.

    300mgs of dexamphetamine? Negro, please.

    I have read reports of people actually having awesome sleep when popping 5mgs of dex (even more so with Desoxyn). The shizzle doesn't work with MPH or Adderal apparently.


    "I am a man of few words" - Mayor Adam West

  8. #28
    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Frangible mostly covered it, but it is very hard to dissociate the effects of Amphetamines qua Amphetamines on your system from the effects that your behaviors have while on Amphetamines. That and animal models are problematic for this research.

  9. #29
    Junior Member Dr Jane's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Jun 5 2009, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>These statements seem to be contradictory. Could you explain both in more detail?

    Your explanation of high levels of T restricting NO is interesting. However, in your explanation NO doesn't have anything to do with desire, but rather, functionality. So you'd still have the neural cascade of responses in the brain which causes incredibly large amounts of desire (libido) with no way to release it (erection).

    I dare say that the above usually isn't the case with individuals whom have high T...

    Looking forward to your response. Welcome to M&M [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]</div>

    G'day Jake,

    The reason my comments seem contradictory is because I made an error. Oops. It is Adrenaline (epinephrine) that inhibits Nitric Oxide, not Testosterone. Apologies- I was tired after a long shift on Friday. Your message made me realise what I'd done. Thanks.

    That said, there are many apparently contradictory things about brain chemistry, hormone function, and human behaviour. These apparent contradictions are often because the same chemicals can have very different effects depending on the level present (or interactions with the other chemicals present). Human behaviour contains many apparent contradictions simply because humans are very very complex.

    The point I was trying to make (but actually obscured) was that amphetamine has a dose-related effect on sexual response in men. Functional doses are vasoconstricting (due to the increase in adrenaline) and this combined with high testosterone leads to increases in sexual desire and performance- (it can produce extremely hard erections that last a long time, and that last past orgasm and ejaculation). Higher doses of amphetamine become counter-productive, as the negative effect of adrenaline inhibiting NO overrides the positive effect caused by adrenaline's vasodialtory properties. If your testosterone levels are elevated at this point, it will take more adrenalin than usual to produce 'Mr Floppy', but if you take too much amphetamine in one go you may find you have greatly elevated desire and no ability to sustain erection. Typically this will become less of a problem as plasma levels of the drug decrease.

    While it seems that many people don’t know it, it is not necessary for a man to have an erection to experience orgasm and ejaculation. (It is not necessary to ejaculate to experience orgasm either. All three are regulated by different systemns).

    It is necessary, however, to have an erection if sexual intercourse involving penetration is to take place.

    An erection occurs, when under the influence of sexually arousing stimuli the penis becomes engorged with blood. An erection is a very complex biological phenomenon but it involves 2 chemicals that play a major role in both male and female sexual arousal. These are nitric oxide (NO) and cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP). Both of these result in relaxation of smooth muscle that controls blood vessels within erectile tissue- the nipples, the penis, and also in the clitoris (including the tissues you can't see, which surround the walls of the vagina). Relaxing these smooth muscles allows more blood to fill the erectile tissue, so as the muscles relax the tissue actually gets swollen and engorged. In males this results in increased blood flow within the penis. Both of these chemicals (contrary to my last post) are +ively influenced by testosterone. That is, without sufficient testosterone, there will not be enough NO and cGMP to create or maintain an erection. (DHT (dihydrotestosterone) is the principle regulator of these chemicals and DHT is manufactured in the body from testosterone). This erection producing blood flow is 30 – 60 times the normal blood flow in the penis when it is soft. An alteration in blood flowing out of the penis traps about 120 ml of blood in the erect penis. When flaccid, the blood pressure in the penis is about 10 – 15 mm Hg. When fully erect the pressure is over 120 mm Hg.

    After orgasm, under the influence of a hormone called oxytocin, the amount of cGMP declines rapidly. This results in constriction of the blood vessels that increased blood flow within the penis during erection. Then there is less blood flowing within the penis and together with an increased drainage of the entrapped blood the penis becomes flaccid (relaxed) again. If you have large amounts of testosterone onboard, or if you are using the right dose of amphetamine, the oxytocin released by orgasm may not result in a flaccid penis. Instead many men find they can maintain the erection and continue having sex.

    Testosterone is processed differently by men and women, because our hormonal systemns are different.

    For example, drinking alcohol elevates testosterone in both men and women. This increases libido. In most women, the increase in testosterone levels plateaus after roughly 4 or 5 standard drinks. Their bodies begin to turn the excess testosterone into estrogen. A man's levels of testosterone will continue increasing. (This may be why after about 2 am in most bars or clubs all the women who want to hook up with someone already have, and all the other women start leaving, while by about 4 am the venue is just full of drunken frustrated men who start looking for fights... The big exception to this observation would appear to be precisley those bars and clubs where the patrons are likely to be using cocaine, amphetamine, or xtc)

    Using amphetamine to enhance sexual function is a matter of judging dose appropriately.

    If you use amphetamines, and you are using androgens to try and build muscle, I would suggest that you restrict both the dose and frequency of amphet use as much as possible. Regular or high dose use of any amphetamine type stimulant will be counterproductive in terms of building body mass, (and can have a lot of other negative side effects as well). Amphetamine might be useful in a short burst to strip fat and better define muslces, but prolonged use is almost always going to make it harder to increase mass- largely due to reduced appetite, altered quality of sleep, and reduced ability to uptake vitamins and minerals.


    I hope this information is useful...

    Dr Jane.

  10. #30
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Bump on this thread. Having started bodybuilding, and now started Adderall XR, I want to know if there is any truth to this. Ex Dubio, please chime in.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Tussmann's Avatar
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    Kassem, I highly doubt there will be any significant changes in the 10-15 mg XR range of Adderall. If anything, the Adderall will keep you consistent in your workout routine and if you can make the motivational / energetic symptoms last -- you will most likely keep going up in lifts.

    As far as genuine hormonal effects go, I too would like Ex Dubio or someone else to chime in. But seriously, I doubt there's any cause for concern.

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    Bumped. I'm curious too. I will note that nicotine inhibits steroidogenesis in rat testes like amphetamine albeit through some different mechanisms, if i recall. Yet studies in men showed that chronic smoking increased testosterone.

  14. #33
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evanski View Post
    Bumped. I'm curious too. I will note that nicotine inhibits steroidogenesis in rat testes like amphetamine albeit through some different mechanisms, if i recall. Yet studies in men showed that chronic smoking increased testosterone.
    For real? Smoking increases testosterone?

    Sure it's not through the indirect effects of 'being cool'?

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  16. #35
    Senior Member Ex Dubio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tussmann View Post
    Kassem, I highly doubt there will be any significant changes in the 10-15 mg XR range of Adderall. If anything, the Adderall will keep you consistent in your workout routine and if you can make the motivational / energetic symptoms last -- you will most likely keep going up in lifts.

    As far as genuine hormonal effects go, I too would like Ex Dubio or someone else to chime in. But seriously, I doubt there's any cause for concern.
    I'm afraid I don't have time to dig up citations, but I'm never seen mention of anything more than a tiny effect on testosterone. It's absolutely nothing to worry about either way.

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    All I know is that when I'm taking my Amp, the constriction down below is very obvious. Shrinks it to baby size! I understand this to be epinephrine working her evil magic.

    Yet, workouts while on Amp are much more effective, and the mind-muscle connection is very apparent. Overall I feel if one is eating adequate, keeping stress down, and sleeping well I see reason to believe it actually helps stimulate the Hypothalamus' release of LH/FSH. In fact I find the dopamine system is necessary to some extent for it's pulse and release. Wonder if Amp affect GH too? On the FDA insert for amp drugs, they do state that in adolescent the drug can affect growth.

    Last little rant however, I do know Amp can deplete or lower Magnesium levels. Perhaps it plays a role in this? I use Magnesium at night spray and pill.

  18. #37
    Senior Member pyttsan's Avatar
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    The vasoconstriction annoys me as well. My hands always get extremely cold and my muscles and blood vessels contract a lot. The latter problem is annoying cause my arms are farely pumped-up at other times..
    Anyone know of any good solution? Vinpocetin works well but there are some obvious drawbacks with that substance so I'd be glad to find something else that works...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyttsan View Post
    The vasoconstriction annoys me as well. My hands always get extremely cold and my muscles and blood vessels contract a lot. The latter problem is annoying cause my arms are farely pumped-up at other times..
    Anyone know of any good solution? Vinpocetin works well but there are some obvious drawbacks with that substance so I'd be glad to find something else that works...
    I haven't tried it at all yet, but in theory Yohimbine HCL should directly address the problem of vaso-constriction of our member.... It's mediated through blocking the A2 adrenergic receptor from being agonized and somehow is able to negate the constriction associate with epinephrine. Yohimbe is good for those with sexual anxiety.

  20. #39
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    How the hell is increased prolactin a good thing?

  21. #40
    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyttsan View Post
    The vasoconstriction annoys me as well. My hands always get extremely cold and my muscles and blood vessels contract a lot. The latter problem is annoying cause my arms are farely pumped-up at other times..
    Anyone know of any good solution? Vinpocetin works well but there are some obvious drawbacks with that substance so I'd be glad to find something else that works...
    Yes. Any PDE-5 inhibitor works for me. Taurine, alcohol (mostly red wine), benzodiazepine(s) and other GABAergic drugs should help substantially.

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