[Modern]

So my buddy got some supplements and I asked him what they were he said ai's. I thought these were only for use during a pct?

i know your body produces estrogen; so are we trying to lower it to increase test?

sorry for the dork question but im really curious

[Greg-W]

One letrozole pill a week quadruples testosterone level

That's used non-PCT.

[Modern]

One letrozole pill a week quadruples testosterone level

That's used non-PCT.

I'm sure that every ai is different as far as the increase in test.. so it be great to stack any ai with a test booster then correct, but most test boosters are ai's arent they?

[Owner]

Most test boosters have some AI capability, so you are correct. It is possible to boost testosterone using an AI, but that isn't the only thing you'll need. It seems that this testosterone boosting effect doesn't translate into massive muscle gains.

[Modern]

Most test boosters have some AI capability, so you are correct. It is possible to boost testosterone using an AI, but that isn't the only thing you'll need. It seems that this testosterone boosting effect doesn't translate into massive muscle gains.

so it'll need to be stacked..., so an ai is more for aggression and strength then i assume.

[Nicorette88]

It will, for most people, tank your libido and be pretty harsh on your joints.

[The450Man]

read the clomid thread. Im about to test out a year long clomid cycle.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=28394

[cosmosp]

Clomid is a SERM, so it will raise Estrogen levels, but the extra E will have no place to go. Clomid with a low dose AI seems to be a good protocol. (One that I may try myself when I get my bloods back)

450Man
Definitely interested in hearing how Clomid works for you.

[Benson]

Clomid is a SERM, so it will raise Estrogen levels

Not directly.

[Mitosis]

Clomid is a SERM, so it will raise Estrogen levels, but the extra E will have no place to go. Clomid with a low dose AI seems to be a good protocol. (One that I may try myself when I get my bloods back)

450Man
Definitely interested in hearing how Clomid works for you.

You shutdown?

I am..was thinking of the same protocol.


I think letrozole and aromasin raise IGF-1..while arimidex lowers it.

I olike aromasin myself...letro lowers E almost too much, joints get dry..libido is shit.

[Mitosis]

so it'll need to be stacked..., so an ai is more for aggression and strength then i assume.

I dont really see an AI raising aggression too much...

Maybe something like epistane...but a plain old fashioned AI I have never gotten more aggression from.

[cosmosp]

Not directly.

Of course, but the end result of more T will equal more E. Hence the recommendation of low dose AI. As per your thread 25mg per day should do the trick

Not shutdown Mitosis, just suspect low T, so I'm checking out some bloodwork from privatelabsmd. (LH, FSH, T, E2). Will also consider Formestane, which I believe raises IGF-1 and lowers E and DHT.

[BulkPower]

Clomid is a SERM, so it will raise Estrogen levels, but the extra E will have no place to go. Clomid with a low dose AI seems to be a good protocol. (One that I may try myself when I get my bloods back)

450Man
Definitely interested in hearing how Clomid works for you.

I thought clomid and the other research chems were used to rasie test levels and lower estrogen during PCT for harsh ps's. im retarded and had it backwards! hence i dont use ps's:)

[Mitosis]

Of course, but the end result of more T will equal more E. Hence the recommendation of low dose AI. As per your thread 25mg per day should do the trick

Not shutdown Mitosis, just suspect low T, so I'm checking out some bloodwork from privatelabsmd. (LH, FSH, T, E2). Will also consider Formestane, which I believe raises IGF-1 and lowers E and DHT.

Formestane may shut you down a hair.

[cosmosp]

I thought clomid and the other research chems were used to rasie test levels and lower estrogen during PCT for harsh ps's. im retarded and had it backwards! hence i dont use ps's:)

They do and they are. When you're shutdown, both T and E2 are low, so we need to bring both up to normal levels. The goal is not to obliterate E2. Clomid and other SERMS block the receptors where E2 would normally attach to wreak havoc in a low T environment. After all you're shutdown, hence low T, low DHT to antagonize and compete with E2.

[cosmosp]

Formestane may shut you down a hair.

True with the conversion to 4-OH-Androstenedione.

[Benson]

Of course, but the end result of more T will equal more E. Hence the recommendation of low dose AI. As per your thread 25mg per day should do the trick

Although, the T:E ratio will change dramatically in favor of androgens so the increase in E is somewhat trivial and an AI is probably not required to manage the increase in estrogen.

[Jakeshorts]

All of you are completely ignoring the main problem here

It seems that this testosterone boosting effect doesn't translate into massive muscle gains.

Case in point, superficially raising T levels doesn't seem to translate into a very meaningful result. So, you'd have to ask yourself why you are trying to raise your T in the first place. If you're on PCT then it would make sense. If not, then we need to investigate further before this can really be justified.

First off, SERM's raise in E is accompanied by T (which is how you get more E, btw). Most guys will tell you that while on cycle if you trank your estrogen you wont keep as much progress made had you left it alone. While an AI by definition of it's MOA will result in more test, all it is doing is inhibiting aromatase from doing it's job. There seems to be a gap here resulting in either zero or close to zero net gain.

Clomid works by increasing LH (need Benson to confirm this). Which is a good thing. Taking an AI might on paper seem like tits, but in real world application, I'm becoming very skeptical.

[Owner]

I am pretty skeptical of a pure AI for PCT also. Look at it this way, you have low T levels already, so there is nothing to convert, therefore nothing to stop from being converted. So, in that case a SERM is much preferred if you ask me, since you will get something out of it.

[GaWd]

It will, for most people, tank your libido and be pretty harsh on your joints.

Some AI's can do this, especially if administered improperly.

I was on ATD at 3 caps per day for a few weeks after a cycle, and my Estrogen tanked, and my libido sank to miserable levels. I could barely stand up, my body hurt so bad. I dropped the ATD and started taking Clomid and voila-immediate relief.

So the cheaper, OTC preps will make you feel like dogshit at high doses. Clomid and other SERMs at sane dosages do not.

Clomid is great stuff.

[Ubiyca]

Clomid + Formestane = <3

[slugs]

Clomid + Formestane = <3

What do your doseages/timings look like for this?

[BulkPower]

All of you are completely ignoring the main problem here




Case in point, superficially raising T levels doesn't seem to translate into a very meaningful result. So, you'd have to ask yourself why you are trying to raise your T in the first place. If you're on PCT then it would make sense. If not, then we need to investigate further before this can really be justified.

So your saying an increase in Test wont equate to more aggression/strength

[Jakeshorts]

So your saying an increase in Test wont equate to more aggression/strength

How much test are we talking about? You have no idea how much test it takes for either of those things. You also can't tell me how much this regimen is going to "boost" your test levels. Even if it did, we wouldn't know what the significance of that is. You just assume it's good.

This simple minded MOAR TEST = STRONGER, LEANER, AND CRAZIER is ridiculous when you're not talking about supraphysiological levels. If you disagree (and I'm proven wrong at least once a day) present some solid data on the matter.

[Ubiyca]

What do your doseages/timings look like for this?

25mg Clomid/day

200mg Formestane/day


P.S supraphysiological is the best fucking word ever.

[cosmosp]

Got my bloods back, definitely not low test.

LH 6.1 (1.7 - 8.6)
FSH 5.5 (1.5 - 12.4)
Tesosterone, Serum 702 (280 - 800)
Estradiol 38.3 (7.6 - 42.6)

I'll be 35 in a month 6 foot about 165 - 170 (Decent muscle mass, but some stubborn chest and ab fat)
It's crazy though, I almost NEVER wake up with morning wood, I would like to see that E number come down a little bit. Any natural ways anyone can think of? I was thinking trying to shed some fat, increasing cruciferous veggies, etc. Any natural AI's I should be aware of?

[Ubiyca]

Got my bloods back, definitely not low test.

LH 6.1 (1.7 - 8.6)
FSH 5.5 (1.5 - 12.4)
Tesosterone, Serum 702 (280 - 800)
Estradiol 38.3 (7.6 - 42.6)

I'll be 35 in a month 6 foot about 165 - 170 (Decent muscle mass, but some stubborn chest and ab fat)
It's crazy though, I almost NEVER wake up with morning wood, I would like to see that E number come down a little bit. Any natural ways anyone can think of? I was thinking trying to shed some fat, increasing cruciferous veggies, etc. Any natural AI's I should be aware of?

I recommend 10mg of cialis every 72 hours for 4 months.

[Jakeshorts]

Got my bloods back, definitely not low test.

LH 6.1 (1.7 - 8.6)
FSH 5.5 (1.5 - 12.4)
Tesosterone, Serum 702 (280 - 800)
Estradiol 38.3 (7.6 - 42.6)

I'll be 35 in a month 6 foot about 165 - 170 (Decent muscle mass, but some stubborn chest and ab fat)
It's crazy though, I almost NEVER wake up with morning wood, I would like to see that E number come down a little bit. Any natural ways anyone can think of? I was thinking trying to shed some fat, increasing cruciferous veggies, etc. Any natural AI's I should be aware of?

Less != more libido. Seriously, you need to really research this sort of thing before you go doing anything stupid, cause it sounds like you've done none thus far.

Estrogen pills are widely sold as a male afrodisiac.

Suggestion:
DAA - 6g/day
zinc x 100mg/day
D3 5000ius/day

Don't mess with an AI, you'll kill what libido you have left (most likely).

[cosmosp]

Woah. My libido is fine, definitely not in the tank, and the only AI I've ever tried was a cycle of formestane for about a month. Coincidentally, I had morning wood that could cut glass Believe me, I'm not one to jump into things, but there's a huge chasm between tanking E (which I'm well aware of the dangers of) and lowering that number to the 28-33 range.

I take 50 mg zinc picolinate every night, 5000iu's of D3 three days a week on top of being in the sun a lot. During the winter I'll take it everyday. I tried DAA, but had some bad mental fog side effects.

Ubiyca, are you serious with that suggestion? I've never tried a PDE-5 inhibitor before. I'd bet the wood would be off the charts on that protocol!

[Supnut]

I think the answer to this is also needed in the DAA thread.


according to this random site Google returned men produce 6-8mg of test daily.

I'm not sure but I assume that if you inject 100mg of test Prop. that weight includes the prop. side of the molecule so someone that knows would have to tell us how many actual mg of test. that equates to divided over the 1-2 weeks the injection lasts.


I'm looking for an objective comparison.


When we talk about test boosters we talk in terms of test production % comparisons
When we talk about steroids we talk about how androgenic or anabolic they are compared to test.
Its very hard to tell how this all relates in terms of how much more hormone you have flowing through you compared to normal.