[flatline_]

I want to do 25 mg Clomid/day to raise my natural T levels, but what concerns me is that I read that Clomid reduced Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH:

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.

The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par25.htm


Any thoughts on this?

[Benson]

Any thoughts on this?

Yes. 150mg/day is a lot more than you would need to take to increase endogenous production.

[nightop]

Ralox/Nolva have always been my choice for SERMs in general. There are a number of really in-depth discussions on pros/cons related to different SERMs and comparisons to A.I.s, etc.. in threads of old around here.

[Benson]

Ralox/Nolva have always been my choice for SERMs in general.

You don't find tamoxifen's inherent toxicity a drawback?

[nightop]

You don't find tamoxifen's inherent toxicity a drawback?

Its not that bad, people just need to use a proper dose and stay aware of blood clot risks. Most of the time its being used for only a few weeks anyway. Personally I prefer Ralox, if one has to use a SERM. Overall though, I don't like SERMs and instead prefer A.I., but I understand the arguments for SERM use post-cycle, etc..

[flatline_]

that's the thing, I am not using this for "PCT", I would be dosing a SERM such as clomid at low amounts over a long (perhaps even "permanent") time period, to raise my natural levels, which are not genetically super high end of the normal range. My diet is in place, no deficiencies (iodine,Vit A, Vit D, zinc, magnesium, saturated fats, etc). It's sort of a "fuck you" to nature if you will...

Since I am dosing over a long period, tamoxifen's toxicity is no go...


So Benson the reduction of sensitivity that "may" occur at 25 mg a day does not concern you? And what are your thoughts on Raloxifene for the purpose I outlined above? Or should I piss off and use the search function? I saw your thread on Clomid for this use but it seemed the pituitary sensitivity issue was never resolved.

[Benson]

So Benson the reduction of sensitivity that "may" occur at 25 mg a day does not concern you? And what are your thoughts on Raloxifene for the purpose I outlined above? Or should I piss off and use the search function? I saw your thread on Clomid for this use but it seemed the pituitary sensitivity issue was never resolved.

The data show that clomiphene consistently raises T levels and improves fertility in hypogonadal men so if there is a reduction in GnRH sensitivity, its apparently being more than offset.

IOW, clomiphene demonstrably works for the purpose of improving endogenous testosterone production and has been shown to be safe for men in studies up to a year...which is why, if Repros ever manages to get Androxal out the door, it will be the end of androgel, IMO.

[nightop]

that's the thing, I am not using this for "PCT", I would be dosing a SERM such as clomid at low amounts over a long (perhaps even "permanent") time period, to raise my natural levels, which are not genetically super high end of the normal range. My diet is in place, no deficiencies (iodine,Vit A, Vit D, zinc, magnesium, saturated fats, etc). It's sort of a "fuck you" to nature if you will...

Since I am dosing over a long period, tamoxifen's toxicity is no go...


So Benson the reduction of sensitivity that "may" occur at 25 mg a day does not concern you? And what are your thoughts on Raloxifene for the purpose I outlined above? Or should I piss off and use the search function? I saw your thread on Clomid for this use but it seemed the pituitary sensitivity issue was never resolved.

I would use an aromatase inhibitor, if it were me, for such purposes. 6-OXO if possible.

[flatline_]

I would use an aromatase inhibitor, if it were me, for such purposes. 6-OXO if possible.

Isn't 6 OXO suppressive (thought I heard that somewhere :/ )....also wouldn't I have to tank my estrogen levels to get high normal test out of an AI?

[enemy]

I love toremifene.

[Ubiyca]

I've been on 25mg/clomid since May 2009

I added 100-200mg/day, 100mg morning, 100mg night of topical formestane

and... holyfuck.. it's the SHIT.

Instead of just being big, my muscles are getting very defined and I still look big!

FUCKIN A. Also I feel greattttttt. Perhaps my E2 was a tad high?

[Benson]

I added 100-200mg/day, 100mg morning, 100mg night of topical formestane

Where did you get the fomestane?

[enemy]

I know CEL has a topical formestane product.

[nightop]

If I recall formestane or one of its metabolites has direct AR agonist activity. Anyone remember what I'm talking about? It was a big discussion/issue like four or five years ago.

[Ubiyca]

Where did you get the fomestane?

CEL baby, CEL.

[Ubiyca]

If I recall formestane or one of its metabolites has direct AR agonist activity. Anyone remember what I'm talking about? It was a big discussion/issue like four or five years ago.

Meaning what, that its suppressive É

[Mitosis]

Meaning what, that its suppressive É

Its androgenic....causes some HPTA inhibition.

[Ubiyca]

Its androgenic....causes some HPTA inhibition.

Yeah... so Ive heard formestane is, but meh... Im running clomid anyway, so fuck it IMO.

[Mitosis]

Yeah... so Ive heard formestane is, but meh... Im running clomid anyway, so fuck it IMO.

Its pretty mild anyway....just keep it short and you will be fine I believe.

[Ubiyca]

Its pretty mild anyway....just keep it short and you will be fine I believe.

Whats short to you... 6-8 weeks..

[Mitosis]

Whats short to you... 6-8 weeks..

Yeah thats not too long....10-12 is what most folk say is getting into the medium/long period....

Long for me is three years lol.

But 6-8 weeks aint bad....I dont see you getting suppressed bad...esp with the clomid on hand.