[krazyj]

I'm having endless problems with long term stimulant use. My life for the past 2 years has been:

0 Months: Unbearable, daily anxiety from stimulant use. Fuck this, no more stimulants.
1 Month: Off stimulants. Feeling decent.
1-6 Months: Feeling listless, undriven, purposeless, however, living a more lucid life. To use Goleman terms, my EQ shoots through the roof.
6 Months: I can't take this purposeless, undriven wading through life anymore... back to stimulants.
6-12 Months: Back on stimulants. Feeling decent.
12 Months: Unbearable, daily anxiety from stimulant use. Fuck this, no more stimulants.
(repeat, repeat, repeat!)
each time I think to myself 'no, this time will be different.'

I can't take it anymore. This seriously fucks with my head so much.

I don't get how stimulants can have no consistent effect for me! It's great, then it deteriorates to chronic anxiety.

On stimulants, I've tried magnesium, Memantine, working out, eating right, the list goes on for the past 3-4 years and everything I've been able to extract from research and this board. Off stimulants, I've tried sleeping right (my college friends think I'm a pussy for needing 7-8 hrs/sleep), drinking yerba mate every morning, caffeine, working out, eating right, etc.

I'm off stimulants now and have a big test tomorrow that I haven't started studying for (9PM, now). I popped a 10mg Ritalin I had lying around and it has been incredibly therapeutic (so therapeutic, I'm starting to format my posts, now). This is the same 10mg Ritalin that, when taken chronically (way back when I took Ritalin), would induce anxiety just looking at it and swallowing it. I'd have metaanxiety from taking it (when I get a lurching feeling from just taking the pill everyday... that's when I know to quit).

I'm already taking the lowest doses of everything (30 mg Vyvanse).

Is there some missing link/supplement/something I don't know about wrt long term anxiety. I feel like my receptors or regions are deteriorating over the course of a few months from the increased dopamine. I remember liorrh was playing around with the idea that 6 months is a reactive time for stimulant effects.

M&M community... agh. Suggestions?

Right now, I'm waiting to get some HRT-based anxiety issues worked out before giving deprenyl a slow taper and throwing in PEA as a plan B if that doesn't work.

Has anyone experienced this? Can anyone commiserate or contribute any scientific data here?

Thanks, folks.

[D-termine]

Commiserate? Jesus yes. I've been back on Adderall for the last 2-3 months, I can't really remember. Daily use, 20mg a day was great for the first month or two. Then up to 30mg daily for the last month. Now the last week the effects are gone, I'm withdrawing daily, anxiety is out of control, and my desire to do anything again is gone.

I have been clean from drugs for the last 2 months now. No cigs at all. No weed. Drinking every other weekend. Xanax on and off at super low dosing. Just school and the single and secluded life. Most days have been great up until the last week.

The anxiety today was too much. I'm going back to xanax and I'm too deep into the semester to quit the adderall. I'm ordering Memantine tonight, but I know that will be temporary at best.

Do you simply have to keep taking more? When does it stop? The only thing worse than perpetual anxiety is the idea of stopping this and going through full blown wd's.

[krazyj]

Commiserate? Jesus yes. I've been back on Adderall for the last 2-3 months, I can't really remember. Daily use, 20mg a day was great for the first month or two. Then up to 30mg daily for the last month. Now the last week the effects are gone, I'm withdrawing daily, anxiety is out of control, and my desire to do anything again is gone.

I have been clean from drugs for the last 2 months now. No cigs at all. No weed. Drinking every other weekend. Xanax on and off at super low dosing. Just school and the single and secluded life. Most days have been great up until the last week.

The anxiety today was too much. I'm going back to xanax and I'm too deep into the semester to quit the adderall. I'm ordering Memantine tonight, but I know that will be temporary at best.

Do you simply have to keep taking more? When does it stop? The only thing worse than perpetual anxiety is the idea of stopping this and going through full blown wd's.

Thanks for the post, dude. It's not so much as the tolerance issue (in fact, I never have a problem with that), as it is a building anxiety from chronic dosing of the same dose. Therapeutics dissolve somewhat and anxiety emerges to the point where it's uncomfortable, eventually.

For your issue though, memantine is promising. I took memantine for many months to great effect on some of the positive aspects of stimulant therapy (until I stopped stimulants completely).

[bdog527]

You hippies just need MOAR ADDERALL.

[Section 8]

I kind of touched on this in another post somewhere. IMO the problem is psychological, not neurological. Psychologically speaking, there are different existential orientations that we inhabit while perceiving and participating with the world. (Even though that may sound like gibberish, it's been demonstrated empirically in myriad different ways.) One of those positions is implicated in detaching from the current state of affairs, reflecting, and re-calibrating. Since we put on blinders while engaged in purposive activities, it's necessary to periodically take that step back in order to re-grip reality. IMO, stimulants more or less over-ride the rhythmic retreats to that position. The anxiety is just your mind giving you feedback to the fact that you are functioning in a way that you shouldn't be, and that you've been doing so for too long.

Off stimulants, I've tried sleeping right (my college friends think I'm a pussy for needing 7-8 hrs/sleep), drinking yerba mate every morning, caffeine, working out, eating right, etc.

IMHO, you should probably try figuring out what you really truly give a shit about, and then getting involved with that.

[Mr.Kite]

To be honest the best tactic I know of is to not use stims every day. You wont be able to keep up with classes as well, but every time you have something graded coming up/due, use stims to get it done and do a good job. For the rest of the time, you should be mostly stim free so you don't habituate to them and so you can have some time as a normal person instead of a stim-ed out freak (its good for your personality, believe me).

Instead of taking them non-stop for months, and then stopping for months, just moderate during the term like I described above and do your very best to not use them during breaks. Also, if you need a sense of purpose that only stimulants seem to be able to give I'd say that you've got some philosophical/existential/theological problems that need attending to first.

EDIT: I mostly agree with S8's post above me too, in that these retreats are made available by using stims mostly for projects. However I do think much of it is neurological because with any continued use of a stimulate, while there is tolerance that is typically formed to some of the effects (such as the rush, and the anoretic effect), there is sensitization to other effects (such as the anxiety). This is simply a result of how the limbic system is structured.

[nathan28]

I'm having endless problems with long term stimulant use. My life for the past 2 years has been:

0 Months: Unbearable, daily anxiety from stimulant use. Fuck this, no more stimulants.
1 Month: Off stimulants. Feeling decent.
1-6 Months: Feeling listless, undriven, purposeless, however, living a more lucid life. To use Goleman terms, my EQ shoots through the roof.
6 Months: I can't take this purposeless, undriven wading through life anymore... back to stimulants.
6-12 Months: Back on stimulants. Feeling decent.
12 Months: Unbearable, daily anxiety from stimulant use. Fuck this, no more stimulants.
(repeat, repeat, repeat!)
each time I think to myself 'no, this time will be different.'

Um, this is a classic self-medication pattern. Could be psychological, psychiatric or physical or all of them. Or something else. ADD/I? IBS? Unresolved mother issues? I don't know, I'm not you.

[krazyj]

I kind of touched on this in another post somewhere. IMO the problem is psychological, not neurological. Psychologically speaking, there are different existential orientations that we inhabit while perceiving and participating with the world. (Even though that may sound like gibberish, it's been demonstrated empirically in myriad different ways.) One of those positions is implicated in detaching from the current state of affairs, reflecting, and re-calibrating. Since we put on blinders while engaged in purposive activities, it's necessary to periodically take that step back in order to re-grip reality. IMO, stimulants more or less over-ride the rhythmic retreats to that position. The anxiety is just your mind giving you feedback to the fact that you are functioning in a way that you shouldn't be, and that you've been doing so for too long.

Thanks for the post, S8. I've been trying to follow Joseph Campbell's tenets of 'follow your bliss', in fact. However, I find nothing, at all, that moves me. Off stimulants, I feel too much that I'm going through useless motions day in, day out. In fact, after taking this Ritalin, I've noticed the most therapeutic part of it is a sense of optimism and drive. For the most part, I feel every day is another useless act of 'going through the motions'. As a graduating college student (with a pretty success filled resume after 4 years of moar adderall), I have no plan... and look at that feeling with digust. Throw some stimulants into the mix, I feel alot better about the potential outcomes and where things might be going.

I've been searching for my muse, off stimulants. It's just hard to get excited about much anything, to begin with. Stimulants provide that excitement, I guess?

Searching for that delicate line between your valid suggestions and the right neurological balance...

[krazyj]

To be honest the best tactic I know of is to not use stims every day. You wont be able to keep up with classes as well, but every time you have something graded coming up/due, use stims to get it done and do a good job. For the rest of the time, you should be mostly stim free so you don't habituate to them and so you can have some time as a normal person instead of a stim-ed out freak (its good for your personality, believe me).

Instead of taking them non-stop for months, and then stopping for months, just moderate during the term like I described above and do your very best to not use them during breaks. Also, if you need a sense of purpose that only stimulants seem to be able to give I'd say that you've got some philosophical/existential/theological problems that need attending to first.

EDIT: I mostly agree with S8's post above me too, in that these retreats are made available by using stims mostly for projects. However I do think much of it is neurological because with any continued use of a stimulate, while there is tolerance that is typically formed to some of the effects (such as the rush, and the anoretic effect), there is sensitization to other effects (such as the anxiety). This is simply a result of how the limbic system is structured.

In my time off, I've been trying to gravitate towards S8's suggestions of 'fight the battle psychologically'. And I've been fighting. But it has been an overall failure so far and with motivation consistently running thin in a stimulant-free world, it's even harder of a struggle. I've been trying to stay away from the 'dose as you need it' protocol for that reason. Ironically, I'm warming up to the protocol (and giving up on the brute-force psychological battle) but now I'm graduating college and will no longer live life in discrete, assignment-centric events.

Another issue, I've been taking Vyvanse for a long time. My doc thinks it has been going great because I've just been telling him everything's working, getting a prescription every month, and trying to figure it out on my own on the side. I'm in a situation that, for many reasons, makes it hard for me to secure a consistent and reliable psych, unfortunately, so I'm stuck in working with this option and figuring out my own plan.


I'm noticing with this brief revisit to stimulants I'm on for the next few hours (for study purposes), my disposition of life is much more improved, optimistic, confident in my direction. I'm mentally activated. My mood is lifted to a comfortable range. All of this evaporates once stimulants leave the picture, unfortunately.

[blarger]

Most average people use stimulants every day -- coffee, energy drinks, diet coke. If/when they get anxious, they have a beer, eat a starchy/fatty meal, lift weights, crank one out...

Why do you think you should be immune from anxiety, esp with chronic PHARMA GRADE stim usage? You are chemically pushing your system to the red line every day and disappointed when there is some corrosion?

Maybe some dudes can use amphetamines every day and never see any ill effects. I have yet to meet one, or hear about one, on this or any board.

Here are your options, as informed by years of personal and pop-cultural observation:

A. live with the anxiety and be a motivated-but-semi-psychotic type (think Ari Gold, Billy Mays)
B. Amp up daily but keep bottles of booze and benzos at your side, to try to keep yourself in that sweet spot (Lots of rock stars)
C. Judiciously use your amps so that you avoid A and B. Its called responsibility and judgment, and it is unfortunately part of growing up. Unless you want to be a CEO or rock star, then go for it.

[D-termine]

I kind of touched on this in another post somewhere. IMO the problem is psychological, not neurological. Psychologically speaking, there are different existential orientations that we inhabit while perceiving and participating with the world. (Even though that may sound like gibberish, it's been demonstrated empirically in myriad different ways.) One of those positions is implicated in detaching from the current state of affairs, reflecting, and re-calibrating. Since we put on blinders while engaged in purposive activities, it's necessary to periodically take that step back in order to re-grip reality. IMO, stimulants more or less over-ride the rhythmic retreats to that position. The anxiety is just your mind giving you feedback to the fact that you are functioning in a way that you shouldn't be, and that you've been doing so for too long.



IMHO, you should probably try figuring out what you really truly give a shit about, and then getting involved with that.

I think a lot of truth in this analysis. I just went through a breakup this past month, and maybe had a hard time of it for a week tops. That was near the glory stages of the amp usage with a touch of alprazolam. It's easy to push emotions down on amps, and I was admittedly worried at how little I felt. Maybe with school winding down a bit and the stims losing their punch my mind is getting a chance to voice its opinion.

That said, it feels as though there is a very strong physiological mechanism behind this seemingly unwarranted anxiety. Life is actually really good atm, so the anxiety is coming out of left field.

To be honest the best tactic I know of is to not use stims every day. You wont be able to keep up with classes as well, but every time you have something graded coming up/due, use stims to get it done and do a good job. For the rest of the time, you should be mostly stim free so you don't habituate to them and so you can have some time as a normal person instead of a stim-ed out freak (its good for your personality, believe me).

Instead of taking them non-stop for months, and then stopping for months, just moderate during the term like I described above and do your very best to not use them during breaks. Also, if you need a sense of purpose that only stimulants seem to be able to give I'd say that you've got some philosophical/existential/theological problems that need attending to first.

EDIT: I mostly agree with S8's post above me too, in that these retreats are made available by using stims mostly for projects. However I do think much of it is neurological because with any continued use of a stimulate, while there is tolerance that is typically formed to some of the effects (such as the rush, and the anoretic effect), there is sensitization to other effects (such as the anxiety). This is simply a result of how the limbic system is structured.

I can't use a stim acutely, the subsequent multiple day crash is not worth it. Plus the pinpoint, bullshit focus from acute dosing is no good for me.

This dogmatic conundrum that we find ourselves in is likely at the root of much of our stimulant usage. Is it not what these drugs are prescribed for though? Personally, I have impulse control issues, and the extra DA keeps me in check with emotional stability at the forefront. Hopefully I can only use the amps as training wheels, but I guess only time will tell.

I'd be curious as to some further info on how the limbic system concerns sensitization to anxiety.

Thanks for the post, S8. I've been trying to follow Joseph Campbell's tenets of 'follow your bliss', in fact. However, I find nothing, at all, that moves me. Off stimulants, I feel too much that I'm going through useless motions day in, day out. In fact, after taking this Ritalin, I've noticed the most therapeutic part of it is a sense of optimism and drive. For the most part, I feel every day is another useless act of 'going through the motions'. As a graduating college student (with a pretty success filled resume after 4 years of moar adderall), I have no plan... and look at that feeling with digust. Throw some stimulants into the mix, I feel alot better about the potential outcomes and where things might be going.

I've been searching for my muse, off stimulants. It's just hard to get excited about much anything, to begin with. Stimulants provide that excitement, I guess?

Searching for that delicate line between your valid suggestions and the right neurological balance...

Nothing to moves you? Sounds more like a depressive state pulling on you than ADD like symptoms. I have no problem finding all the wrong shit to motivate me off adderall, but perhaps our reasons for taking stims deviate more abruptly than they coalesce. Then again I am not as well versed in the symptoms of the various forms of ADD as I would like.

Life is boring as shit though, and people like us are already underfed on the DA level. Find a woman that torments you. Sports that invigorate. Or maybe you're fucked like me and have just done too many drugs for your poor reward system to recover from.

For me, life post steroids, post athletics due to injuries, and post being a stupid jackass kid is going to be hard. Restraint may lead to success, but with that comes the listlessness of the mundane normal life.

Learn the strengths of impulsive actions and how to steer them in a positive direction and you may be on to something.

[krazyj]

Most average people use stimulants every day -- coffee, energy drinks, diet coke. If/when they get anxious, they have a beer, eat a starchy/fatty meal, lift weights, crank one out...

Why do you think you should be immune from anxiety, esp with chronic PHARMA GRADE stim usage? You are chemically pushing your system to the red line every day and disappointed when there is some corrosion?

Maybe some dudes can use amphetamines every day and never see any ill effects. I have yet to meet one, or hear about one, on this or any board.

Here are your options, as informed by years of personal and pop-cultural observation:

A. live with the anxiety and be a motivated-but-semi-psychotic type (think Ari Gold, Billy Mays)
B. Amp up daily but keep bottles of booze and benzos at your side, to try to keep yourself in that sweet spot (Lots of rock stars)
C. Judiciously use your amps so that you avoid A and B. Its called responsibility and judgment, and it is unfortunately part of growing up. Unless you want to be a CEO or rock star, then go for it.

Meh. I thought with a valid neurological disorder, these rules would bend for me. I have ADD in some sense of the word.

Funny you mention Ari Gold. I secretly hold him as a prototype of the person I'd like to be in a utopian world (this IS M&M).

My problem with 'judiciously using amps' is twofold:
-there's no FDA indication for judiciously using amps... making it that much harder converge on sustainable solution (esp if you've been on extended release amps for years and suddenly asking for IRs)
-that, IMO, is not a stable long term solution. throwing your mind and personality into a spiral to buy 24-hours of productivity. there has to be a better solution (what I'm searching for).


I recently started HRT and I'm curious as to how this is impacting me (and my hunch is for the worse). I talk to Dr. Crisler in a few weeks and we'll see what he says but I think my estrogens might be high right now. Currently on one packet Androgel and 100IU HCG/day. I've had some anxiety crop up recently which I'm nearly certain is related to this new HRT.

After that's dialed in though... I'm pinning some hope on selegiline. Beyond that, back to amps for another 6 months, I guess? Fuck.

[Section 8]

Too much ego. You seem motivated more by a desire to maintain your belief that what you're doing is right than by a desire to actually be right. I say this not out of preachiness, but simply based on the observation that you're sole focus is what you're putting into your body rather than how you're investing yourself in your activities. Know how I know that's the problem? Because, when you're not on drugs, you hate your life. But wait, there's more: when you are on drugs, you hate your life. From this I draw the conclusion that the problem is that you hate your life.

In a head-first approach to health, working out, eating right, sleeping enough, etc., are instrumental to the goal, rather than constitutive. There are plenty of really happy, really effective people out there who do none of those things. That's because systems work in hierarchies, and the mind tops the brain in the same way that the brain tops the body: it can't do without it, but it will allow its bitch to take an enormous amount of abuse before appreciably suffering for it. It's like you've shoved your head up your ass in an attempt to get an insider's view of your skull; it may seem to make sense, but really it doesn't.

The best advice I could give is to find something you care about, in a context where you're not the top dog, and try to be the top dog. Unless you're some kind of android devoid of envy, gratitude, pride, remorse, etc., the system should provide you with the necessary feedback once you've interjected yourself into it.

[DrPhil]

I love how you cut through the bullshit

[krazyj]

Too much ego. You seem motivated more by a desire to maintain your belief that what you're doing is right than by a desire to actually be right. I say this not out of preachiness, but simply based on the observation that you're sole focus is what you're putting into your body rather than how you're investing yourself in your activities. Know how I know that's the problem? Because, when you're not on drugs, you hate your life. But wait, there's more: when you are on drugs, you hate your life. From this I draw the conclusion that the problem is that you hate your life.

In a head-first approach to health, working out, eating right, sleeping enough, etc., are instrumental to the goal, rather than constitutive. There are plenty of really happy, really effective people out there who do none of those things. That's because systems work in hierarchies, and the mind tops the brain in the same way that the brain tops the body: it can't do without it, but it will allow its bitch to take an enormous amount of abuse before appreciably suffering for it. It's like you've shoved your head up your ass in an attempt to get an insider's view of your skull; it may seem to make sense, but really it doesn't.

The best advice I could give is to find something you care about, in a context where you're not the top dog, and try to be the top dog. Unless you're some kind of android devoid of envy, gratitude, pride, remorse, etc., the system should provide you with the necessary feedback once you've interjected yourself into it.

Cutting wisdom I could use. Thanks.

[Par Deus]

I kind of touched on this in another post somewhere. IMO the problem is psychological, not neurological. Psychologically speaking, there are different existential orientations that we inhabit while perceiving and participating with the world. (Even though that may sound like gibberish, it's been demonstrated empirically in myriad different ways.) One of those positions is implicated in detaching from the current state of affairs, reflecting, and re-calibrating. Since we put on blinders while engaged in purposive activities, it's necessary to periodically take that step back in order to re-grip reality. IMO, stimulants more or less over-ride the rhythmic retreats to that position. The anxiety is just your mind giving you feedback to the fact that you are functioning in a way that you shouldn't be, and that you've been doing so for too long.

Probably in my analytic ruminations/manly depression thread in The Lounge.

[Par Deus]

I can't use a stim acutely, the subsequent multiple day crash is not worth it.

You do understand that the crash is much worse, after chronic use, right??

Use of psychoactives is basically just like pulling forward demand with cash for clunkers and shit.

After that is withdrawn, things get very slow and bleak.

[liorrh]

I agree with Sec8 except - I think its a psychological contextual inherent fallacy (that may jack up stim use) that you need to try to be the top dog to feel happy/fulfilled/stimulated

[Section 8]

I agree with Sec8 except - I think its a psychological contextual inherent fallacy (that may jack up stim use) that you need to try to be the top dog to feel happy/fulfilled/stimulated

That's a good point. I didn't mean for the metaphor to be interpreted in terms of dominance / submission. What I meant was competition is a pretty natural drive, IMO, and totally healthy in mutual pursuit of a shared good, so it makes sense to take advantage of that. A lot of people look for places where they're comfortable, but that only leads to complacency. Better to find people that you admire and will be naturally motivated to out-perform.

[Necrosis]

C. Judiciously use your amps so that you avoid A and B. Its called responsibility and judgment, and it is unfortunately part of growing up. Unless you want to be a CEO or rock star, then go for it.

Maybe, just maybe some people have a psychiatric condition which stimulants actually help and using them here or there is not warrented. I mean, i have went through my life without stims and undiagnosed ADHD, i can finally sit fucking still, focus for more then 10 seconds, get out of bed, not intterupt people, relax in social situations and not feel like im being run by a fucking motor all day long, they calm me down.

If you are using them "to get shit done" expect problems, just like if you were using benzos to watch a movie.

[Necrosis]

Too much ego. You seem motivated more by a desire to maintain your belief that what you're doing is right than by a desire to actually be right. I say this not out of preachiness, but simply based on the observation that you're sole focus is what you're putting into your body rather than how you're investing yourself in your activities. Know how I know that's the problem? Because, when you're not on drugs, you hate your life. But wait, there's more: when you are on drugs, you hate your life. From this I draw the conclusion that the problem is that you hate your life.

In a head-first approach to health, working out, eating right, sleeping enough, etc., are instrumental to the goal, rather than constitutive. There are plenty of really happy, really effective people out there who do none of those things. That's because systems work in hierarchies, and the mind tops the brain in the same way that the brain tops the body: it can't do without it, but it will allow its bitch to take an enormous amount of abuse before appreciably suffering for it. It's like you've shoved your head up your ass in an attempt to get an insider's view of your skull; it may seem to make sense, but really it doesn't.

The best advice I could give is to find something you care about, in a context where you're not the top dog, and try to be the top dog. Unless you're some kind of android devoid of envy, gratitude, pride, remorse, etc., the system should provide you with the necessary feedback once you've interjected yourself into it.

+1

[((Vibe))]

Probably in my analytic ruminations/manly depression thread in The Lounge.

I've dubbed these "King Solomon threads" btw. They tend to pop up somewhat regularly around here, which makes sense on so many levels...if you're familiar with the book of Solomon anyways.

[Section 8]

I think I've actually referenced Ecclesiastes somewhere here before. 'Deal with the people you hate and mind the things you love. Everything else is bullshit.' Good stuff.

[krazyj]

To follow up on this, I'm beginning to suspect that I just need some kind of light, chronic stimulant partially for purposes of mental acuity and alot for mood. Without any stimulant in me, I'm unmotivated and generally negative (which is a physiological effect second to hypoarousal, not a psychological effect, IMO... I can't pep talk my way out of poor mental acuity).

While I'm not arguing S8's points, I think this is a combo of physiological and psychological. Should I just begin starting my day off with coffee, I guess? What's indicated by low-grade hypoarousal associated psychological negativity and, to a certain degree, a bit of dysthymia, eh?

I'm coming to this conclusion as I dropped 200mg caffeine and 200ish(?) mg glucuronolactone in my pre-workout shake and now, I'm walking out of the gym pretty good mood, mentally activated (I'd describe it as 'psychologically optimal') whereas, otherwise, I feel comparatively more tired as to how I started. And, as I type, I feel my post-workout 200mg caffeine test kicking in and dose-dependently and quickly pushing these mood-lifting properties to euphoria. This seems to confirm that caffeine is what's at play here, I feel.

Suggestions? Thoughts? Deprenyl?

[bdog527]

A quality brand of SJW standardized for a high hyperforin content did wonders for my ANTs (automatic negative thoughts).

[Chaos Theory]

I feel your pain, Krazy. I go through a lot of this cyclical stimulant use myself. Dosages keep going up and up and sleep deteriorates.

A lot of what section 8 said is true though. You (and me) need the stims because you hate what you are doing in your job/life/etc. The stimulants are used to artificially produce the excitement you would naturally have if you were working in a new job or on a project you were excited about. A new woman even. I'm pretty convinced that people who constantly date someone new every couple months are chasing the thrill of the new relationship. I guess the same could be said of people who constantly change jobs. As something becomes less challenging, routine, and boring, they need something new to excite them again.

Deprenyl has been pretty helpful for me. It definitely keeps me going. I still need caffeine in addition to the deprenyl to get me through my boring days at work. If I want to get anything done besides posting on M&M anyway..

[ziddy]

Because, when you're not on drugs, you hate your life. But wait, there's more: when you are on drugs, you hate your life. From this I draw the conclusion that the problem is that you hate your life.

I think it's more likely that his life doesn't like him.

[krazyj]

You (and me) need the stims because you hate what you are doing in your job/life/etc.

I don't though.

I think it's more likely that his life doesn't like him.

Fuck you.

[Section 8]

I feel your pain, Krazy. I go through a lot of this cyclical stimulant use myself. Dosages keep going up and up and sleep deteriorates.

A lot of what section 8 said is true though. You (and me) need the stims because you hate what you are doing in your job/life/etc. The stimulants are used to artificially produce the excitement you would naturally have if you were working in a new job or on a project you were excited about. A new woman even. I'm pretty convinced that people who constantly date someone new every couple months are chasing the thrill of the new relationship. I guess the same could be said of people who constantly change jobs. As something becomes less challenging, routine, and boring, they need something new to excite them again.

Deprenyl has been pretty helpful for me. It definitely keeps me going. I still need caffeine in addition to the deprenyl to get me through my boring days at work. If I want to get anything done besides posting on M&M anyway..

You guys are focusing on a few soundbites and dumbing down what I'm saying. I specifically used the social anxiety as a proxy for social/identity incoherence. It isn't a matter of "what naturally excites you." Actually, I'm more inclined to argue that in the state he's in very little will naturally excite him. That's why I used the conditional progressive tense: 'once he has implicated himself into the network, the natural modes of feedback should do the rest'. That's an effort-before-reward scenario. Motivation, excitement, etc., comes once you've received admiration and praise for an accomplishment that you've worked for and genuinely value and, after that, felt the sting of others vying for your laurels. IME, at least. Also, it's not an all or nothing thing. There is still the reality that we live in a world that is fairly competitive and ruthlessly unforgiving of failure; if you suffer from executive dysfunction (the most common form of developmental failure) that puts you at a disadvantage for efficiently dealing with a lot of the routine BS that is often necessary in building a life for oneself. Popping a pill and cranking it through in an afternoon is preferable to letting yourself fall behind because you're spending months to do the same thing 'sober'. Just like it's stupid to live in gross pain from breaking a leg because you don't want to take painkillers out of principle... but, at the same time, it's also stupid to continue taking them 24/7 in perpetuity. See the analogy?

I'm not a fan of dep.

It takes closer to a year than a month for the brain to right itself after prolonged stim use. That's why methamp has the highest relapse rate of any drug, even though the detox is stupidly mild.

I don't though.

Mind you, it's always possible that you only think you enjoy what you're doing. That's where all of the psychological re-orientation stuff I've been talking about comes into play. Getting out of the hippie mindset that they shove down science students' throats that it's some big democratic kum-bah-ya gang-bang, devoid of oedipal dynamics. Academia is a sick, sad institution. I can relate though. I gather you're in some grad or undergrad program paying your dues, no? You could always join some sort of social activism club, or start your own business if you have the savvy (but don't do the last one unless you really have the time and willpower). Your friends kind of sound like fags... nobody who really pushes himself loves getting too little sleep, let alone mocks the opposite in others.

[liorrh]

you see the guy having threads about stims for two years, other posters share the came (comic) cyclic nature of posting... whats the point?
Depressed people.. are so boring. stuck in the same loops, not doing or doing things for the same reasons, over and over and over...

YAWN
but ironic YAWN