[Par Deus]

I've consciously noticed myself doing this a great deal in the last couple of years as my understanding of the world and the people in it has become less positive, but I've certainly thought of the way I do it as probably, if not at least quite possibly maladaptive (i.e. the nerd cliff of ultra-smart folk).

But, as if God were helping me in my fight, yesterday, I came across two different instances of theory of it as normal and positive.


http://secularright.org/wordpress/?p=2890

"Depression is the primary emotional condition for which help is sought. Depressed people often report persistent rumination, which involves analysis, and complex social problems in their lives. Analysis is often a useful approach for solving complex problems, but it requires slow, sustained processing, so disruption would interfere with problem solving. The analytical rumination hypothesis proposes that depression is an evolved response to complex problems, whose function is to minimize disruption and sustain analysis of those problems by (a) giving the triggering problem prioritized access to processing resources, ( reducing the desire to engage in distracting activities (anhedonia), and © producing psychomotor changes that reduce exposure to distracting stimuli. As processing resources are limited, sustained analysis of the triggering problem reduces the ability to concentrate on other things. The hypothesis is supported by evidence from many levels-genes, neurotransmitters and their receptors, neurophysiology, neuroanatomy, neuroenergetics, pharmacology, cognition, behavior, and efficacy of treatments. In addition, the hypothesis provides explanations for puzzling findings in the depression literature, challenges the belief that serotonin transmission is low in depression, and has implications for treatment."



and:


http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/22/the-cave/


"Basically what happens in the Cave is that the man shuts off all external inputs and either enters a sort of purely meditative state or engages in some activity that focuses his hands and the conscious part of his brain, keeping them busy, while the unconscious does its work.

First he reaches down into his gut and asks himself “How do I really feel about this?” He may be feeling 100 different things at once, but if he sits quietly with himself, and only himself, sooner or later a couple of reactions and feelings will bubble up to the surface as being more important than all the rest.

Then, he goes up into his head an asks himself “What do I really think about this?” Again, he may be thinking 100 different things, which he shuffles around, and sorts, and discards until he has narrowed it down to the most important couple.

The next step is an internal negotiation/mediation process in which he weighs each side against the other and asks himself questions “Is this issue which has me so bothered really significant, or is it trivial? Am I angry over something petty, or does this really violate a deeply held principle? Do I need to fight for this, or do I need to blow it off?”

Eventually he will work through all the internal conflicts and confusion and decide on a course of action which is right for him – both for what he feels, and what he believes. He will then emerge from the Cave in a much better mood."



Do these ring true for anyone else as far as how you tend to work through things???

[bdog527]

I can totally relate to the analytical rumination and anhedonia that accompanies the realization that the life we are taught to aspire to is essentially a meaningless illusion. I believe that this is partly what the apostle Paul meant when he wrote that "In Adam we die..."

I find my remedies in contemplative meditation and the use of certain herbs.

[Section 8]

Cf. Melanie Klein & WR Bion re. the depressive position.

[maxhealth]

All that ruminating is just sissy stuff. Go beat someone up and skank a ho and you'll feel better.

But seriously, you can't think yourself into depression or think yourself out of it. It does help to think positive and if you aren't depressed, just moody, then you can overcome it that way. Actual depression is a biochemical situation and it may be genetic or due to diet and a number of factors. We could toss around a lot of big words but we will flash forward to the cure.

There are a number of cures on the market. Stay away from sawbones and their scripts for the most part. Tricyclics do work but have major side effects and are expensive. Simple home grown cures are best. First of all, cut way way back on your sugar intake. Sugar contributes to moodiness and gives bad health. Common things that help include st john's wort. Take a few tabs a day for a few days and see how you feel. If nothing happens, up the dose. Other good things that work include creatine. It works great for some people. If all else fails, try salvia divinorum. No, not to trip on, just to use enough you feel a buzz. Works like a charm and lasts for a day or longer. I use plain leaf and smoke it but you can hold it in your mouth like a quid. Takes about an hour to kick in and you wonder where the blues went to.

[Par Deus]

Cf. Melanie Klein & WR Bion re. the depressive position.

Awesomely, my post is already 4th on the first page of google when I cut and paste that entire thing.

[ozzman]

I can absolutely relate, how else would you deal with your problems and with life in general. If you don't isolate, enter "the desert" from time to time, you cannot assess what is important in your life.

Depression is a thinking man's tool.

[Ubiyca]

I can absolutely relate, how else would you deal with your problems and with life in general. If you don't isolate, enter "the desert" from time to time, you cannot assess what is important in your life.

Depression is a thinking man's tool.

You just blew my mind.

[blarger]

I don't think entering "the cave" or the "desert" is indicative of depression.

It probably just means you are a smart person, facing a problem, who wants to see it from all angles.

But if you do it too long and too often, you inevitably make the problem worse. It can sneak up on you, especially in the darker months.

[enemy]

You people are a bunch of solipsistic amoebae.

[liorrh]

its good to be aware.

[200wannabe]

I don't think entering "the cave" or the "desert" is indicative of depression.

It probably just means you are a smart person, facing a problem, who wants to see it from all angles.

But if you do it too long and too often, you inevitably make the problem worse. It can sneak up on you, especially in the darker months.

Agreed.

Is there not a difference between shutting of all external stimuli (voluntarily or otherwise) to ‘analytically ruminate’ (think!) about complex problems and being ‘depressed’ for no apparent reason when life seems positive and the outlook is sunny? Whether or not that is the result of a chemical imbalance or not is a different issue.

It is all too easy to become mired in overanalyses and lose perspective.

Sometimes forcing yourself out of that cave and spending time with quality friends (not discussing 'the issues') and just having fun/being around those you can relax with, can help spur the subconscious to a 'solution'.

[Ubiyca]

You people are a bunch of solipsistic amoebae.

You just blew my mind too.

[blarger]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/magazine...ssion-t.html?em

This new article is about ruminative depression... very interesting

[Tkarrde]

Good stuff here:

"The problem, though, is that as a society, we’ve come to see depression as something that must always be avoided or medicated away. We’ve been so eager to remove the stigma from depression that we’ve ended up stigmatizing sadness."

[djremix]

fair enough

but it aint cool wasting your life away doing nothing while trying to sort out a problem that doesnt seem to be sortable.

besides i though human beings have evolved to solve shit faster as a society?

[ozzman]

DJ are talking about chronic depression, this has to do with cyclical depression, and not just any kind of depression, but the kind that follow rumination. In a way it seems similar to being Bipolar. After a manic state a state of depression arrives. In both cases it's like the a relief valve for the mind, literally downtime.

ETA: In the case of rumination the downtime of all other things allows the ruminant (?) to devote the time to problem solving

[djremix]

doesnt most chronic depression start off from a cyclical one and then gets worse?

anyways, i looked up rumination , and i dont really understand the context its used here.

but no worries, ill drift away with a sugar coated tianeptine and rumin away :-)

[Frangible]

Sounds like emo hippie bullshit to me. There was no point in human evolution where any significant part of the population could afford to be "depressed" as in today's criteria and timespan.

I'm not saying there aren't definite biochemical, environmental, and genetic triggers for it. There are.

Remember, humans evolved as a tribal animal, constantly in strife, with a short lifespan; Lots more violence, fire, fucking, fire, looting, fire, razing, fire, stabbing motherfuckers, fire, rape, fire, taking slaves, fire, getting chased by bears and/or lions, and fire FIRE FIRE FIRE.

 beavis.jpg (197.12K)
Number of downloads: 2

Hey guess what, those all pump dopamine and PEA through the motherfucking roof, which pretty much instantly treats depression. Isolation was death. Prolonged inactivity was death. Passiveness was death.

Rumination? Thinking? Complex problem solving? Fuck that shit, evolution never favored IQ. It favored fucking, stabbing, looting, and fire. The other tribe and the bear don't give a flying fuck about your SAT score or your carbon footprint. It all came down to a game of who's the better killer.

Especially for all you white-ass motherfuckers out of northern Europe. How do you think your ancestors survived most of the year when there's no crops? By killing shit and eating it. No preservatives, no kitchens, you basically had to kick it like a bear-- be a rampaging, godless killing machine. Because when you run out of calories-- when you stop killing-- you die. And then there's dysentery. You could totally die from that, too.

Considering the usual triggers for depression are related to social connections, which are fucking terrible in today's society relative to man's evolution, exactly what new truth do you think people could possibly figure out that they didn't already know? Shit happens, everything dies, betrayal sucks. Not a whole fucking lot new to learn, you know?

Einmal vor Unerbittlichem stehn,
... wo alles ohne Liebe ist,
wo nur die Wirklichkeit herrscht,
grausig und groß,
solches macht sicher und stolz.
Unvergeßlich und tiefer
rührt es ans Herz des Menschen
als alle Liebe der Welt.

If anything, depression is the product of the emasculating and isolating effects of modern society running contrary to human evolution, not in concert with it. The most developed nations have the highest rates of depression. It's about as manly as voting Democrat. (too bad they don't make a pill for that)

America stopped having world wars, and let women and niggers vote. BOOM, depression.
Japan stopped using Chinese for katana practice. BOOM, depression.
Germany stopped blitzkrieging around Europe and oven-roasting Jews. BOOM, depression.
Britain stopped colonizing anything that stuck out of the water they could dock a boat to. BOOM, depression.

Meanwhile, random shithole 3rd world country with lack of clean water, child soldiers, mass poverty, poor civil rights, and eternal war? Motherfuckers are far more content. They don't just kick our asses in terms of not being depressed, they wtfpwn us in studies on happiness, too.

Now, are we as Americans going to take this shit lying down, getting teabagged on the happiness meter from a bunch of illiterate assholes who don't even have Blu-Ray players? Last I checked, it was USA NUMBER ONE.

The bombing begins in five minutes.

[Tkarrde]

Depression, like jogging, is a privileged activity.

Life's very ironic.

Frang's comments reinforce the irony at play here.

[blarger]

So, absence of meaningful physical activity with others --->Depression/Unhappiness. I buy it.

Whether that activity be hunting+rape+fire or more peaceful pursuits like fishing or herding

Which is why white collar work sucks... it is mental and primarily solitary -- the manipulation of symbols on 2D surfaces, instead of objects in 3D space. Its too bad it pays so well. I think I'll raise my skinny white kids to punt footballs for a living.

[khakiman]

interesting and plausible theory. i agree with both sides. depression lets you isolate and ruminate, and lack of meaningful activities with others is usually the cause.

[Frangible]

What's truly depressing is the trolling resistance of this forum. I remember back in the day, when I could invoke at least several cases of RAGE when actually trying to be diplomatic and shit. Fuck, I could post a single picture of GWB and it was like, torches and pitchforks. Now, I get like one new guy every 5 months or so.

 4chan_nazi_frank.png (218.58K)
Number of downloads: 1

Sure, Godwin's law is like a cheat code for the internets, but it's like neoconservatism is going out of style or something. Come on people, it's going to take more than Dick Cheney and me if we want to get our war on.

[Gahan]

Sounds like emo hippie bullshit to me. There was no point in human evolution where any significant part of the population could afford to be "depressed" as in today's criteria and timespan.

I'm not saying there aren't definite biochemical, environmental, and genetic triggers for it. There are.

Remember, humans evolved as a tribal animal, constantly in strife, with a short lifespan; Lots more violence, fucking, looting, razing, fire, stabbing motherfuckers, fire, rape, fire, taking slaves, getting chased by bears and/or lions, etc. Hey guess what, those all pump dopamine and PEA through the motherfucking roof, which pretty much instantly treats depression. Isolation was death. Prolonged inactivity was death. Passiveness was death.

Rumination? Thinking? Complex problem solving? Fuck that shit, evolution never favored IQ. It favored fucking, stabbing, looting, and fire. The other tribe and the bear don't give a flying fuck about your SAT score or your carbon footprint. It all came down to a game of who's the better killer.

Especially for all you white-ass motherfuckers out of northern Europe. How do you think your ancestors survived most of the year when there's no crops? By killing shit and eating it. No preservatives, no kitchens, you basically had to kick it like a bear-- be a rampaging, godless killing machine. Because when you run out of calories-- when you stop killing-- you die. And then there's dysentery. You could totally die from that, too.

Considering the usual triggers for depression are related to social connections, which are fucking terrible in today's society relative to man's evolution, exactly what new truth do you think people could possibly figure out that they didn't already know? Shit happens, everything dies, betrayal sucks. Not a whole fucking lot new to learn, you know?



If anything, depression is the product of the emasculating and isolating effects of modern society running contrary to human evolution, not in concert with it. The most developed nations have the highest rates of depression. It's about as manly as voting Democrat. (too bad they don't make a pill for that)

America stopped having world wars, and let women and niggers vote. BOOM, depression.
Japan stopped using Chinese for katana practice. BOOM, depression.
Germany stopped blitzkrieging around Europe and oven-roasting Jews. BOOM, depression.
Britain stopped colonizing anything that stuck out of the water they could dock a boat to. BOOM, depression.

Meanwhile, random shithole 3rd world country with lack of clean water, child soldiers, mass poverty, poor civil rights, and eternal war? Motherfuckers are far more content. They don't just kick our asses in terms of not being depressed, they wtfpwn us in studies on happiness, too.

Now, are we as Americans going to take this shit lying down, getting teabagged on the happiness meter from a bunch of illiterate assholes who don't even have Blu-Ray players? Last I checked, it was USA NUMBER ONE.

The bombing begins in five minutes.

Agreed wholeheartedly. This is why, whenever I go camping, I secretly hope I get attacked by wild animals.

[Ubiyca]

What's truly depressing is the trolling resistance of this forum. I remember back in the day, when I could invoke at least several cases of RAGE when actually trying to be diplomatic and shit. Fuck, I could post a single picture of GWB and it was like, torches and pitchforks. Now, I get like one new guy every 5 months or so.

Haha.. ppl have been desensitized. =/

[Sanction]

Haha.. ppl have been desensitized. =/

True.

Still, Frange could use his past postings as a portfolio of evidence of his ability to create comedy for the Colbert Report.

Seriously, he has a gift for that kind of thing and might even be happy earning a living at it.

[krazyj]

I'm a 5th year senior right now going to a school in a geographically isolated part of the state.

The school is not small, by any means, 23.5k students, however, classes wrapped up for last semester in December and the last of my local friends graduated, at that time. It's too late in the semester now to join clubs and intramurals.

So I'm geographically, socially, and, as of late, financially pretty isolated.

I'm a fairly strong introvert and I feel you on the analytical rumination leading to manly depression. It's more than a bitch to work out of.

[Par Deus]

What's truly depressing is the trolling resistance of this forum. I remember back in the day, when I could invoke at least several cases of RAGE when actually trying to be diplomatic and shit. Fuck, I could post a single picture of GWB and it was like, torches and pitchforks. Now, I get like one new guy every 5 months or so.

That is almost certainly my fault.