[Jinx Me]

I have a fair bit of DMSO at home that I've used very sparingly. It's widely used by vets and people who work with sport horses/race horses, and works effectively for inflammation on animals.... but I'd like to put some feelers out before applying it to my own or my boyfriend's painful joints and tight/injured/inflamed soft tissue.

I'm thinking of cutting the DMSO with some moisturizer or oil, and combining it with something else, since it's so penetrating. I'd be interested in using it on his painful wrist (possibly early stage osteoarthritis - he works with his hands), as well as both of our tight soft tissue - IT bands that are a bitch to break down just through foam rolling, that sort of thing.

Any suggestions or cautions would be most appreciated.

[chemgoddess1]

First time I saw this stuff in a health food store I about shit myself. When I worked in pharmaceuticals DMSO was one of those solvents that you really did not want to work with. The stuff is just plain nasty from a chemical standpoint. It still amazes me that people voluntarily use this as a salve.

Not that this helps you, just a different perspective.
MSDS

[Colin]

DMSO (USP grade) was the carrier used for Ergo's Skulpt,a few years back.I used it for over a month and had no negative reaction to it whatsoever.The text below is grifted from the Skulpt writeup,clearly indicating that DMSO can be used without adverse effects.





nce the diffusion of active lipolytic compounds through the skin. While effective, none of these enhancers are as potent as the gold standard of penetration enhancers – dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO).

So why don’t people just use DMSO in their formulas? There are a couple of good reasons for this. Standard DMSO is quite irritating to the skin (especially in high concentrations). Its continued use often leads to irritation, rashes, and skin peeling. Another compelling reason not to use DMSO is its awful smell and taste. DMSO has a somewhat foul garlicky odor, but not only that, after rubbing it on your skin it quickly penetrates into your blood and travels to your lungs and mouth where it leads to the dreaded “DMSO breath”. These are not things most people are willing to put up with.

Interestingly enough, it actually is not the DMSO itself that is responsible for these nasty effects; it is impurities present in the DMSO – foul smelling and caustic sulfur containing compounds that exist in very small concentrations. Pure DMSO is actually odorless and tasteless!!

The problem is it is also extraordinarily expensive. Pure DMSO (DMSO USP) costs 20 times as much as regular DMSO!! It is worth it however; as it makes a topical formula extraordinarily effective, while simultaneously being free of excessive irritation, foul odor, and bad breath related problems. ErgoPharm uses DMSO USP in Skulpt, and it is in fact the most expensive single component of the whole product!! We had to put it in there though, because we were determined to make the best product regardless of cost. We also are well aware that our consumers are intelligent people, and they understand that there is truth to the old adage “you get what you pay for”

[Jinx Me]

ScottL I see you reading this! Come out of hiding and comment please

Where've you been?

[Benson]

Works. Makes you stink.

[ScottL]

Hi Jinx,

OK FWIW:

1. My tight ITBs went away after I started using a shoe insert to fix a minor leg length difference (MD orthopod said didn't need to do anything about difference in leg length, excellent physical therapist suggested shoe insert). YMMV and I have no idea if this plays any role in your issues.

Even assuming this plays no role in your tight ITBs, I can't think of why an anti-inflammatory would help them.

tight ITBs may be just the way you are built. active release can do wonders. Eric Cressey (?) also recommends using PVC pipe to really brutalize e.g. your ITBs.

2. Even assuming that you have osteoarthritis in your hands I can't imagine why DMSO would be your first choice. Again a visit or two to a good active release person (if you know a really good massage therapist they might be of help) might be a good way to start. There is no shortage of antiinflammatories/joint supps if you need them e.g. glucosamine/chondroiten, EPA/DHA, celandrin (sp?), proteolytic enzymes etc.

Actually over DMSO I'd suggest....well I just call it Benson's magic linament....Zheng gu shui for any soft tissue injury/inflammation.

Make sure the DMSO is PURE if you use it.

[Jinx Me]

Hi Jinx,

OK FWIW:

1. My tight ITBs went away after I started using a shoe insert to fix a minor leg length difference (MD orthopod said didn't need to do anything about difference in leg length, excellent physical therapist suggested shoe insert). YMMV and I have no idea if this plays any role in your issues.

Even assuming this plays no role in your tight ITBs, I can't think of why an anti-inflammatory would help them.

tight ITBs may be just the way you are built. active release can do wonders. Eric Cressey (?) also recommends using PVC pipe to really brutalize e.g. your ITBs.

2. Even assuming that you have osteoarthritis in your hands I can't imagine why DMSO would be your first choice. Again a visit or two to a good active release person (if you know a really good massage therapist they might be of help) might be a good way to start. There is no shortage of antiinflammatories/joint supps if you need them e.g. glucosamine/chondroiten, EPA/DHA, celandrin (sp?), proteolytic enzymes etc.

Actually over DMSO I'd suggest....well I just call it Benson's magic linament....Zheng gu shui for any soft tissue injury/inflammation.

Make sure the DMSO is PURE if you use it.

Thanks Scott.

The ITB issue is something we both deal with. I use orthotics. He has no benefits and doesn't have $500 to spend on them. He foam rolls and gets active release in his hip which is helping. I wondered if the DMSO would help break up that hardness in that soft tissue that's so stubborn.

As for the hands, that's just his problem. He's using fish oil, glucosamine/chondroitin/msm, and daily aspirin with C. I expect it's making some difference but he's still feeling it in one hand/wrist. Time off from the gym might help, but he still works with his hands all day, and wants to work out. So the DMSO is not exactly a first choice at all, more just something else to try, with the hope it might help. Especially since I've got a lot of it, all 99.9% pure.

I have no idea what this stuff is you're referring to for soft tissue but I'll definitely do a search on that in the morning. Thanks for the reply

[D-termine]

Ha, I have all these issues. Old age is such fun. Tight IT Bands? Didn't know that was what is wrong with me, I'll have to try the shoes inserts. I've been chasing this issue down for sometime now and have slowly been making progress with Naproxen 500mg 2Xday. It helped a hell of a lot more than loads of ASA and Vit C were for my knee (ITB) issues.

Fish oil was always great for my screwy knees in the past prior to the current ITB problems.

DMSO has never given me odor issues, the itchy skin after applying it does suck.

The Zheng Gu Shui stuff is ok, I like to use it in conjunction with some Capz, they compliment one another nicely.

Foam rolling is great as well obviously. Best of luck on this, these injuries blow.

[Benson]

Interestingly enough, it actually is not the DMSO itself that is responsible for these nasty effects; it is impurities present in the DMSO – foul smelling and caustic sulfur containing compounds that exist in very small concentrations. Pure DMSO is actually odorless and tasteless!!

I gotta call bull on this rehashed Ergopharm marketing crap. The sulfur is part of the molecule (CH3)S20 and not some sort of contaminant. DMSO (USP) may be odorless in the bottle but it will make you stink just as bad once its metabolized...like garlic breath (similar chemicals involved) its difficult to notice it in yourself but put some DMSO on your skin and breath on someone you trust in about 30 minutes and my guess is they will ask you if you had pesto or eggs for lunch...

[dashforce]

Eric Cressey (?) also recommends using PVC pipe to really brutalize e.g. your ITBs.

+1. 4.5" pipe from Home Depot. The first few time "foam" rolling with it were pretty painful, but after about a week they felt fine. Seemed like I could physically feel my posture change from the difference in tension.

I gotta call bull on this rehashed Ergopharm marketing crap.

When did Ergopharm make these allegations? PA tends to know his stuff...

[D-termine]

I gotta call bull on this rehashed Ergopharm marketing crap. The sulfur is part of the molecule (CH3)S20 and not some sort of contaminant. DMSO (USP) may be odorless in the bottle but it will make you stink just as bad once its metabolized...like garlic breath (similar chemicals involved) its difficult to notice it in yourself but put some DMSO on your skin and breath on someone you trust in about 30 minutes and my guess is they will ask you if you had pesto or eggs for lunch...

I have been using 99.9% DMSO for a long time, I use it to predissolve all my TD's and I was using it on my forearm for the ongoing soft tissue nonsense that I've been dealing with for sometime. I've never once gotten a weird smell or had it commented on, the SO would be on me quick about that. Perhaps it varies from person to person?

So far as it being expensive, that's bull. It's one of the cheapest things I've ever bought and it lasts forever.

[Colin]

+1. 4.5" pipe from Home Depot. The first few time "foam" rolling with it were pretty painful, but after about a week they felt fine. Seemed like I could physically feel my posture change from the difference in tension.


When did Ergopharm make these allegations? PA tends to know his stuff...

A few years back when Skulpt was released.

I agree that PA is a bright dude but Skulpt was a FAIL,at least IME.An article by Big Cat explains this,an excerpt:


Why Skulpt didn't work, but how you can make it work in your favour

Skulpt was an analog that was released for a while and then pulled again, that attempted to compete with aforementioned products, but despite all the obvious flaws in said products, failed at doing so.

The idea behind it was to use DMSO as a carrier instead of benzyl alcohol. DMSO is an incredibly potent penetration enhancer that affects both the lipid layers and the structure of the cells in between. It is also amphiphillic and easily builds up in subcutaneous tissues in high concentrations, and a good solvent for most organic compounds. So what was the problem ? Well, apparently DMSO does not function as a carrier. Instead it traverses the skin first and then pulls the product through, so to speak (kurihara-Bergstromm et al, 1987). Which is why skulpt failed.

Using a smaller dose of DMSO with the TPDS would also fail. First of all, when using DMSO as a solvent you need at least 50% for it to work adequately, while even 5% would already be enough to prevent TPDS from working properly. It traverses the skin and is a good solvent, so most of the product would dissolve in the DMSO and be lost systemically, rather than delivered locally through funneling to the benzyl phase.

Using DMSO however would benefit us greatly. Repeated application of percutaneous products results in less and less uptake with each use, and this occurs mostly through resistance in the lipid layers (Barry et all, 1972). So using a product that also works on the cells would definitely attenuate this decrease much much longer.

So how can we use DMSO ? Well the same researchers that found DMSO did not function as a carrier also tested an assymetrical model where they applied the DMSO first, and then the product. This resulted in a notably enhanced uptake of the compound WITH LESS DMSO THAN WHEN USING IT AS A SOLVENT. That means if you pretreat the skin with DMSO, and then apply your TPDS 5-10 minutes later, you have effectively created a product that blows any existing product out of the water.

But because you need less DMSO, and still have better and longer working penetration because of it, and don't require any of the large volume penetration enhancers often used, that screw up TPDS delivery, you save even more money (less DMSO, no other PE's and cheap TPDS in drug store) and get a much greater effect (DMSO stronger PE, TPDS works better).

Considering it was the PE's (and possibly greed) that made these initial formula's so extremely expensive, and that skulpt was also extremely expensive because of the high dose and high quality DMSO (you can choose for yourself now what quality DMSO you like) and both delivered relatively poor results, its basically a win-win situation.

Conclusion

You can no effectively make a local delivery formula in your kitchen that is ten times more effective, and ten times cheaper than any existing formula, and on top of that it allows you to look for cheaper ingredients, ingredients or combinations thereof that you deem more fit, or ingredients that couldn't be legally used by supplement companies.

And trust me, the inquisitive mind can easily improve on even this formula 5-10 times

I have been using 99.9% DMSO for a long time, I use it to predissolve all my TD's and I was using it on my forearm for the ongoing soft tissue nonsense that I've been dealing with for sometime. I've never once gotten a weird smell or had it commented on, the SO would be on me quick about that. Perhaps it varies from person to person?

So far as it being expensive, that's bull. It's one of the cheapest things I've ever bought and it lasts forever.

Any pain relief or recovery to note?

[Benson]

When did Ergopharm make these allegations? PA tends to know his stuff...

Skulpt marketing write up.

I bought it, having used solvent grade (99.9%) DMSO in the past and developing DMSO breath, I was excited the find a product that did not have this issue...Skulpt left me just as stinky as any other DMSO had.

@D-termine, its possible some people don't metabolize DMSO the same way and therefore don't free up the sulfur.

[D-termine]

I've never noticed much from DMSO, but that doesn't mean it isn't working. I still use it to this day.

At the moment I'm playing with a HC/DMSO mix before I hit my arm with my ultrasound machine. Been using the ultrasound/DMSO/HC treatment over the last day on my fucked up rotator as well which seems to be noticeably reducing pain.

If you want to talk serious soft tissue treatment, grab yourself an ultrasound machine.