[SteveSliwa]

Anyone try this?

[keninishna]

I've looked for it online its somewhat hard to come by I've found some sites that have people offering the seeds but I wasn't able to contact the seller. I've seen the studies with irvingia/cissus stack and the fatloss and health benefits are impressive.

[The Bionic Man]

How exactly does it work?

I see it's a "dietary fiber", so does it just fill up your stomch (similar to glucomannan), or are there some metabolism effects?

[keninishna]

its not really known how it works but I think its from the anti-oxidant and anti inflammatory effects.

[skigazzi]

Study here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1168905

[SteveSliwa]

Anyone have this study?

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00645775

[SteveSliwa]

Possible mode of action.

http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/jft/2005/592-594.pdf

[Royal Jay]

Sup everybody, I was searching online for more info on Irvingia and came across these forums. I've been taking irvingia for about 3 weeks and have very noticeably dropped in size. My pants are loose and I'm down a shirt size. Seriously.

The way irvingia works is it lowers the amount of c-reactive protein in your body. The more C-Reactive Protein you have the less Leptin (the hormone that tells your body to stop eating/helps burn fat) can make it to your brain and do it's job. There's no stimulating effects at all. I take it with Fucoxanthin and I will take this stuff the rest of my life.

I found it on another body building website but you can go directly to the maker www.lifeextension.com. I found out they are the only ppl in the world who sell it. Hope this helps!

[CustomNW]

Sup everybody, I was searching online for more info on Irvingia and came across these forums. I've been taking irvingia for about 3 weeks and have very noticeably dropped in size. My pants are loose and I'm down a shirt size. Seriously.

The way irvingia works is it lowers the amount of c-reactive protein in your body. The more C-Reactive Protein you have the less Leptin (the hormone that tells your body to stop eating/helps burn fat) can make it to your brain and do it's job. There's no stimulating effects at all. I take it with Fucoxanthin and I will take this stuff the rest of my life.

I found it on another body building website but you can go directly to the maker www.lifeextension.com. I found out they are the only ppl in the world who sell it. Hope this helps!

Very interesting sir.

[Colin]

Steve sent me a bottle to trial but so far I'm not seeing anything all that signifigant at LEF suggested dosage.

I think I saw an abstract on this (over on BB.com) indicating LEF has this underdosed and the abstract showing comparable fat loss to ECA requires around 4x LEF's dosage.So it looks like this is cost prohibitive,unless it can be sourced in bulk and on the cheap.

Edit:

This study had participants take in 3.15 grams for 30 days with favorable results,opposed to LEF's ED dose at .5g.So,6 bottles would last a month at an effective dosage,cost prohibitive indeed.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/4/1/12

Another abstract showing inhibition of PPAR-gamma and sop on,further indication that this has some potential.I'll see if Mike can source this at a decent price for bulk-supplements,with any luck LEF is price gouging this and the material is available on the cheap.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/7/1/44

[in_vivo]

This stuff does look pretty cool. Here is LEFs writeup on their proposed mechanism of action:

Weight Management: Reversing Leptin Resistance
Fat cells produce C-reactive protein, a pro-inflammatory compound that leads to “leptin resistance.” Overweight people given Irvingia have lower levels of CRP, and therefore less CRP is able to block the activity of leptin. Leptin is important in weight management because it promotes the breakdown of fat in adipocytes and tells the brain to turn off chronic hunger messages.

Hormones: Increasing Adiponectin
Large fat cells secrete less adiponectin, and adiponectin is a crucial hormone that helps support insulin sensitivity as well as cardiovascular health. Overweight people given Irvingia show markedly increased adiponectin levels.

Body Fat: Inhibiting the Fat Converting Enzyme
An enzyme called glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase facilitates the conversion of glucose into triglycerides that increase adipocyte size. Irvingia inhibits glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase, thus reducing the amount of glucose (sugar) that is converted to fat in the body.

Diet: Reducing Carbohydrate Absorption
In order for carbohydrates to be fully absorbed, they must be broken down in the digestive tract by the amylase enzyme. Irvingia inhibits amylase, and thus reduces the amount of ingested starches that will be absorbed as sugar.

Several studies demonstrate the weight loss properties of Irvingia.1 In the largest placebo controlled human study, those taking Irvingia lost 28 pounds over a 10-week period compared to only up to 3 pounds in the placebo group.2 The study participants did not alter their diet.*

[methodice]

I think there are a bunch of supps that reduce CRP.

[Colin]

I think there are a bunch of supps that reduce CRP.

Yes,it isn't novel in that respect but it does do other things too.Inhibition of PPAR-gamma shouldn't be overlooked so there are a few angles with it to consider.Anyway,my point being that this does have signifigant benefits towards body comp but it needs to be offered at a realistic price to be worth buying.Like I said,if we can get it in at a marketable price at BS we will have it up for sale ASAP.

[Jakeshorts]

- Sidebar -



Colin, who the fuck hacked into your account and added that last line in your sig?

[Colin]

I did it all by myself.....yaaaaaaaaay!!!!

PS
Some dude I work with has been saying that "special" line chased with the Crank Yankers "yaaaay" for the past couple weeks and because I'm a special kind of guy too,I've grifted it.

[methodice]

If you jumble the letters of this herb you come close to garcinias cambogias Who is making up these herbs. You will find positive info on garc camb on this board according to Spook.

[Heavy_Lifter85]

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1672

[Colin]

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1672

Good looking out,homes.From the gist of that thread I tihnk it'sa safe to assume that irvingia is balls so I won't follow up on sourcing this.

[SteveSliwa]

Steve sent me a bottle to trial but so far I'm not seeing anything all that signifigant at LEF suggested dosage.

I think I saw an abstract on this (over on BB.com) indicating LEF has this underdosed and the abstract showing comparable fat loss to ECA requires around 4x LEF's dosage.So it looks like this is cost prohibitive,unless it can be sourced in bulk and on the cheap.

Edit:

This study had participants take in 3.15 grams for 30 days with favorable results,opposed to LEF's ED dose at .5g.So,6 bottles would last a month at an effective dosage,cost prohibitive indeed.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/4/1/12

Another abstract showing inhibition of PPAR-gamma and sop on,further indication that this has some potential.I'll see if Mike can source this at a decent price for bulk-supplements,with any luck LEF is price gouging this and the material is available on the cheap.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/7/1/44

How are you comparing an extract to the raw herb and coming up with the extract being weaker?

LEF Quote:

Based on impressive human data, a dose of 150 mg of Integra-Lean™ Irvingia taken twice a day is all that was needed to achieve unprecedented clinical results.

It's a month supply for $29.99 which at a buck a day I suppose is expensive for some.

A study on their brand of Irvingia:

http://www.prlog.org/10143124-28-pounds-of...nical-study.pdf

[Colin]

How are you comparing an extract to the raw herb and coming up with the extract being weaker?

It's a month supply for $29.99 which at a buck a day I suppose is expensive for some.

A study on their brand of Irvingia:

http://www.prlog.org/10143124-28-pounds-of...nical-study.pdf

I had thought that the herb and extract were oe and the same.if not,the extract would certainly be stronger and $29.99 would indeed be a fair price if the figure of 28 pounds of fat loss over 10 weeks from Irvingia is accurate.From the looks of it that study you linked was sponsored by LEF which doesn't lend much to the concept of peer reviewed research.

The other studies appear to not be on the level either,as this qoute from Lyle's board explains.

This is a paste of conciliators post from the "Mean" forums where this product has already been discussed.

Studies should be looked at as highly suspect
Both of these studies on irvingia gabonensis were conducted by Julius Oben, which raises huge red flags to me. Oben is the researcher behind a study earlier this year showing that cissus quadrangularis was effective as a fat loss aid.

After digging around, I found that Oben, the lead researcher, is actually employed at Gateway Health Alliances Inc, which supplied all the testing materials (and probably funded) all of these studies (if you search, you'll find "All testing materials were supplied by Gateway Health Alliances"). Apparently, they've hired Oben as the "Chief Scientific Officer" at Gateway. How's that for impartial.

In addition, Oben holds a patent on Cissus' use as a weight loss aid: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/7,175,859. Oben is the "inventor" and Gateway Health Alliances is the assignee. Apparently Oben and Gateway Health Alliances have been working together since as early as 2000.

In 2006, Oben published a similar study "The use of a Cissus quadrangularis formulation in the management of weight loss and metabolic syndrome". In that study he used a different product from Gateway Health Alliances called Cylaris. It was a mixture of several ingredients including cissus. Of course, it had amazing results, results that Gateway Health Alliances relies on heavily in their marketing: http://www.cylarisweightloss.com/

This doesn't mean that Oben's research is necessarily bogus, but can you tell me why an American corporation is having an obscure university in a poor West African country do all the research on their products, while simultaneously employing the lead researcher? Smells like bad fish to me.

Further, how reputable is "Lipids in Health and Disease", the journal that these were studies were published in? From a dispute about Cylaris:

Some things to think about.

[SteveSliwa]

I had thought that the herb and extract were oe and the same.if not,the extract would certainly be stronger and $29.99 would indeed be a fair price if the figure of 28 pounds of fat loss over 10 weeks from Irvingia is accurate.From the looks of it that study you linked was sponsored by LEF which doesn't lend much to the concept of peer reviewed research.

The other studies appear to not be on the level either,as this qoute from Lyle's board explains.

The quality of the herb has particular importance on the outcome of the study. I'm not concerned about studies on the raw herb as the quality obviously varies greatly (both of the researchers and the material used).

With LEF being one of the highest quality and genuine companies around I'm not remarkably concern their study is a fake. However I'm sure you knew going in this herb is relatively new and there is not alot of research done yet. The research done so far is positive and interesting.

Did you want to drop the log?

[Colin]

I plan on finishing the log,I only have a week left or thereabouts left.

To be completely honest,I haven't exactly scoured Pubmed for research on Irvingia and I may very well be off the mark.Generally speaking,I really only see an appreciable amount of fat loss from a decent sized caloric deficit,ample exercise and DNP.The Cameroon study,as the link I provided will show,is quite shady.LEF,while I agree that they are a reputable company,when I see a company offer up their own clinical trials on a product that thry sell,self interest comes immediately to mind.I'd be a bit doubtful of the results if even Avant were to put on a clinical study of one of their upcoming products.However,if the research holds water,thejn this would be an impressive supplement and would rival ECA without the CNS stimulation so that would really be something.

Edit:
Found this abstract,which shows potential,albeit the subjects were diabetics.More research needs to be done.

West Afr J Med. 1990 Apr-Jun;9(2):108-15.Links
A supplement of Dikanut (Irvingia gabonesis) improves treatment of type II diabetics.
Adamson I, Okafor C, Abu-Bakare A.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Benin.

The effects of Dikanut (Irvingia gabonensis), an African viscous preparation, as supplement (4g/day) in the diet of eleven Type II diabetics were studied. Levels of plasma lipids, glucose and erythrocyte ATPases were monitored for one month. The dikanut supplement elicited hypolipidemic activity. The reduction in plasma lipids was primarily due to a decrease in LDL + VLDL-cholesterol and triglycerides levels. HDL-cholesterol was increased. The three ATPases of the erythrocyte membrane of the diabetic patients were significantly lower than in normal subjects. When dikanut was consumed by the diabetics for four weeks, the activities of the enzymes increased significantly. The increases correlated well with significant reduction of plasma glucose levels. These desirable biochemical effects mediated by ingestion of a naturally-occurring dietary fibre were accompanied by improved clinical states.

PMID: 2148494

[SteveSliwa]

I plan on finishing the log,I only have a week left or thereabouts left.

To be completely honest,I haven't exactly scoured Pubmed for research on Irvingia and I may very well be off the mark.Generally speaking,I really only see an appreciable amount of fat loss from a decent sized caloric deficit,ample exercise and DNP.The Cameroon study,as the link I provided will show,is quite shady.LEF,while I agree that they are a reputable company,when I see a company offer up their own clinical trials on a product that thry sell,self interest comes immediately to mind.I'd be a bit doubtful of the results if even Avant were to put on a clinical study of one of their upcoming products.However,if the research holds water,thejn this would be an impressive supplement and would rival ECA without the CNS stimulation so that would really be something.

It would make sense that caloric restriction, exercise, and a potent fat melting compound like DNP would provide a very effective weight loss approach, which I would imagine would be hard to compare to 1 herbal extract.

I thought it was a good thing for companies to do research on their products? This isn't a sports company where they overhype anything I've always found LEF to be precise and well founded on science not profit (being a non-profit org).

It's too bad I didn't know about the study or I would have sent you enough for 10 weeks,

[junglelove]

It would make sense that caloric restriction, exercise, and a potent fat melting compound like DNP would provide a very effective weight loss approach, which I would imagine would be hard to compare to 1 herbal extract.

I thought it was a good thing for companies to do research on their products? This isn't a sports company where they overhype anything I've always found LEF to be precise and well founded on science not profit (being a non-profit org).

It's too bad I didn't know about the study or I would have sent you enough for 10 weeks,

I like LEF and I buy tons of their stuff (including from Steve), but please don't suggest that LEF is not profit-driven. LEF products are never cheap, and are frequently more expensive than competitors' comparable products. The fact that LEF is a non-profit only means that its profits are plowed back into the business and cannot be distributed as dividends to shareholders or otherwise inure to the benefit of owners.

[SteveSliwa]

I like LEF and I buy tons of their stuff (including from Steve), but please don't suggest that LEF is not profit-driven. LEF products are never cheap, and are frequently more expensive than competitors' comparable products. The fact that LEF is a non-profit only means that its profits are plowed back into the business and cannot be distributed as dividends to shareholders or otherwise inure to the benefit of owners.

I think they are less driven by profits than other companies but they are not amateurs they know they need funds. Just my opinion based on their actions and history with them. I don't know any supplement company that offers blood tests, lists of doctors, and has such a massive backing from the medical community. Or one that owns a pharmacy and their own clinical testing center.

I'm not driven to run my business due to profit but rather helping people means far more to me and why I started my business in the first place.

I'm not sure which brand you would compare with LEF's but I have not seen many products actually have a competing products at least in terms of a formula. Can you cite some examples?

Your statement regarding you buy tons of their stuff and yet they are more pricey than other similar products is abit confusing can you clarify?

[junglelove]

I'm not sure which brand you would compare with LEF's but I have not seen many products actually have a competing products at least in terms of a formula. Can you cite some examples?

Your statement regarding you buy tons of their stuff and yet they are more pricey than other similar products is abit confusing can you clarify?

Examples:
LEF: GABA powder 100g, $23.75 list price
NOW Foods: GABA powder 170 g, $17.99 list price (less than half the LEF cost per gram)


LEF: melatonin 3 mg x 60, $8.00 list price
NOW Foods: melatonin 3 mg x 180, $11.00 list price (less than half the LEF cost per gram)


LEF: vit D3 5000 I.U. x 60, $11.00 list price
NOW Foods: vit D3 5000 I.U. x 120, $13.99 list price (36% less than the LEF cost per I.U.)

I knowingly pay a premium for LEF primarily because (i) they are a solid company, (ii) they have a number of products that are designed to work well by themselves and in conjunction with other LEF products (so that my full arsenal of supps is comprehensive yet well-balanced), and (iii) I receive a lot of e-mails and literature from LEF, so whenever I find myself reading about a supp I'd like to try there is a good chance that I am reading materials that were prepared by LEF and that contain an ad for LEF's version of the supp (i.e., it is simply easier and less time-consuming for me to buy from LEF than to try to find and evaluate alternative sources).

[SteveSliwa]

Examples:
LEF: GABA powder 100g, $23.75 list price
NOW Foods: GABA powder 170 g, $17.99 list price (less than half the LEF cost per gram)


LEF: melatonin 3 mg x 60, $8.00 list price
NOW Foods: melatonin 3 mg x 180, $11.00 list price (less than half the LEF cost per gram)


LEF: vit D3 5000 I.U. x 60, $11.00 list price
NOW Foods: vit D3 5000 I.U. x 120, $13.99 list price (36% less than the LEF cost per I.U.)

I knowingly pay a premium for LEF primarily because (i) they are a solid company, (ii) they have a number of products that are designed to work well by themselves and in conjunction with other LEF products (so that my full arsenal of supps is comprehensive yet well-balanced), and (iii) I receive a lot of e-mails and literature from LEF, so whenever I find myself reading about a supp I'd like to try there is a good chance that I am reading materials that were prepared by LEF and that contain an ad for LEF's version of the supp (i.e., it is simply easier and less time-consuming for me to buy from LEF than to try to find and evaluate alternative sources).

Oh for basics supplements there are much better deals out there (supposedly LEF has better quality but I don't think it's makes a massive difference for vitamin D). I don't think they really intend to be the cheapest supplier out there as a goal especially when they sell mostly to their members near wholesale once a year.

I was referring to their most unique offerings LEF Mix, Super Ginkgo, PPC, Irvingia gabonensis, shark liver oil, etc. Some things they have much better prices (and quality) than other companies but it really comes down to the item being discussed.

[junglelove]

Oh for basics supplements there are much better deals out there (supposedly LEF has better quality but I don't think it's makes a massive difference for vitamin D). I don't think they really intend to be the cheapest supplier out there as a goal especially when they sell mostly to their members near wholesale once a year.

I was referring to their most unique offerings LEF Mix, Super Ginkgo, PPC, Irvingia gabonensis, shark liver oil, etc. Some things they have much better prices (and quality) than other companies but it really comes down to the item being discussed.

If LEF is much more expensive than other companies whenever the other companies sell the same products, what basis do you have for claiming that LEF has much better prices on unique products? Can you cite examples?

I've used the LEF Mix and LEF's PPC, and neither of those products have "much better prices" than any comparable product I'm aware of. I've ordered their Irvingia w/ Fuco, and though I am not aware of any comparable product, it seems like quite a stretch to claim that $72 for 60 gelcaps is a cheap price.

Further, it's not really clear whether LEF products have much better quality. LEF (and you) claim it, and I hope it is true, but in fact LEF products don't make me feel any different or better than other companies' comparable products. Do you have any evidence supporting your claim that LEF's products have much better quality?

[SteveSliwa]

If LEF is much more expensive than other companies whenever the other companies sell the same products, what basis do you have for claiming that LEF has much better prices on unique products? Can you cite examples?

I've used the LEF Mix and LEF's PPC, and neither of those products have "much better prices" than any comparable product I'm aware of. I've ordered their Irvingia w/ Fuco, and though I am not aware of any comparable product, it seems like quite a stretch to claim that $72 for 60 gelcaps is a cheap price.

Further, it's not really clear whether LEF products have much better quality. LEF (and you) claim it, and I hope it is true, but in fact LEF products don't make me feel any different or better than other companies' comparable products. Do you have any evidence supporting your claim that LEF's products have much better quality?

Basis of fact. Well just going off retail prices:

Source Naturals, PPC, 900 mg, 30 Softgels $36.98
LEF PPC 900 mg 60 softgels $49.50

LEF Norwegian Shark Liver Oil (20% Alkylglycerols) 1000 mg, 30 softgels $18
Solgar, Shark Liver Oil Complex, 100% Pure Norwegian, 500 mg, 60 Softgels $16.21

LEF Super R-Lipoic Acid 60 vegetarian capsules NA-RALA 300 mg $49.99
S.A.N. Na-R-ALA 117 mg 60 caps $34.95
LiveLong Nutrition Na-R-ALA 150 mg 100 caps $54.95



I'm not aware of any comparable (having similar ingredients and amounts) product to the LEF MIX can you cite any?

Why did you buy Irvingia w/ Fuco from them? Yes while the retail is $72 no one pays retail for it. Members pay $48.60 or you could buy it from CN for $45.50.

Regarding quality it obviously varies on the product in question. Some items where they buy from respectful suppliers like Geronova's R-lipoic acid is known to be the best quality. As in my previous post I don't think basic supplements quality vary enough to really make a serious difference but it's a personal choice.

I'm still confused why you claim you like LEF and use tons of their products and has stated "...are frequently more expensive than competitors' comparable products." Why buy anything from them if you can get it cheaper from someone else?

I realize you answered "I knowingly pay a premium for LEF primarily because (i) they are a solid company, (ii) they have a number of products that are designed to work well by themselves and in conjunction with other LEF products (so that my full arsenal of supps is comprehensive yet well-balanced), and (iii) I receive a lot of e-mails and literature from LEF, so whenever I find myself reading about a supp I'd like to try there is a good chance that I am reading materials that were prepared by LEF and that contain an ad for LEF's version of the supp (i.e., it is simply easier and less time-consuming for me to buy from LEF than to try to find and evaluate alternative sources)."

But it seems confusing me to if you believe they are lying (or if you have reason to question) about the quality of their products yet are a solid company at the same time. Regarding prices since you have seemingly never or rarely "evaluated alternative sources " I don't see how you can make a comment on their prices.

[Josh]

Hormones: Increasing Adiponectin
Large fat cells secrete less adiponectin, and adiponectin is a crucial hormone that helps support insulin sensitivity as well as cardiovascular health. Overweight people given Irvingia show markedly increased adiponectin levels.

Pardon my ignorance and vagueness of my marginally OT comment, but IIRC adiponectin sensitivity is what is desirable, as there was some sort of acute problem with just increasing adiponectin levels, or maybe it was with adiponectin insensitivity. Alas, what the problem was, MOA or end state, I cannot remember.

Any experts in adiponectin willing to chime in?

J