[avantgarde]

So coming off a cycle sucks.

Past use have proved for me that despite regular use of HCG = balls of full size + SERM it seems the first few weeks of low testosterone levels are where the loss of muscle mass occurs and low libido is present.

This PCT I decided to try something different, the idea isn´t novel Cy Wilsons suggested this 4 years ago. Despite what some may think of him I ilke the idea of using a low dose transdermal testosterone (testogel) during the first part of PCT.

Even if recovery occurs at a slower rate than usual I´d rather avoid the first, crappy period andtubes go off the testogel into low-normal testosterone levels.

I´m going for

- 50 mg ED for 3 weeks
- 25 mg ED for 2 weeks
- 12,5 mg ED for 1 week.

I have 30 tubes so that works out about right in that aspect as well.
Of course a SERM will be taken alongside the testogel and for another 4 weeks after.

I expect/hope recovery without the testogel to take 6 weeks compared to 9 weeks with this protocol. Still worth it IMO especially i you don´t plan to go back on another cycle.

[captainbicept]

You are to remain suppressed until you completly come off all androgens.
You will still have that6 shitty comming off period when the transdermal is stopped.

[dashforce]

Wrong. LH will start coming back up as soon as test levels fall below a certain threshold (ie normal physiological range). Well before you hit rock bottom.

This sounds cool, I'm interested in how it goes for you.

[200wannabe]

I didnt think that it was the return of LH pulses that was the problem. But more the response of the testes to the LH?

Given the use of HCG though that shouldnt be a problem either so what else is causing the problem?

[dashforce]

200wannabe, on Feb 28 2008, 04:47 AM, said:

I didnt think that it was the return of LH pulses that was the problem. But more the response of the testes to the LH?

Given the use of HCG though that shouldnt be a problem either so what else is causing the problem?

Exactly, hopefully you haven't let your balls get to that point. If the testes are in good shape, then LH is the problem. With extended cycles w/o HCG, "testicular atrophy" (and maybe even hypothalamic GnRH) may be bigger issues, but that probably only comes with extended/irresponsible use.

[Jay Black]

Wait a second though, if you're last shot was a test enanthate, for example, the clearance time is already 2-4 weeks like we've discussed...so you're already slowly phasing out the exogenous test, regardless of where it comes from...although, this seems like it would extend the length of normal/high-normal test levels (continued gains), so the drop off would be a little steeper/faster when everything was ceased, but it would seem like less time with low(er) test levels, so that part may be beneficial...I don't know.

EDIT: FWIW, this is my reasoning for running an oral during the clearance period (last shot TE to beginning PCT), i.e. continued/maintained gains, quick drop off, less time with low androgen levels, and (hopefully) faster recovery.

[avantgarde]

Yeah using a long-ester would give you a taper effect. I was using short-acting AAS hence the testogel.

I think the number suggested by Bill (not Anthony) Roberts way back was 100 mg of test remaining in your system yielding 50 % supression of LH so that´s the logic for my assumtion that recovery would occur, albeit at a slower rate.

Jay : yes you get max results having high AAS levels until the final day of your cycle and then the quickest possible recovery if levels are zero the day when you come off. However zero exo test / androgens plus low endogenous test = catabolism, low libido and depression

- so if it works, why not take 3-4 extra weeks of PCT and keep your gains, wood and sanity ?

PLEASE NOTE : I DON´T KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THIS WORKS hopefully I can get bloodwork at week 7 to confirm the results.

[Jay Black]

avantgarde, on Feb 28 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Jay : yes you get max results having high AAS levels until the final day of your cycle and then the quickest possible recovery if levels are zero the day when you come off. However zero exo test / androgens plus low endogenous test = catabolism, low libido and depression

- so if it works, why not take 3-4 extra weeks of PCT and keep your gains, wood and sanity ?

PLEASE NOTE : I DON´T KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THIS WORKS hopefully I can get bloodwork at week 7 to confirm the results.

I agree, but that's what happens with PCT anyway; I'm just not convinced that with exogenous androgens left in the system recovery is possible...LH may increase quickly/greatly, but not test...check out the graph (in the link) in the other PCT thread.

[avantgarde]

The graph was for test shots only which (according to Llwellyn) lead to testicular shrinkage which prolonged recovery.

Also note that testosterone was not budgeing until LH levels came back to near-max levels at week 10.

Now what if you use HCG during the cycle so that you get zero shrinkage and add a SERM to boost LH to high levels early in PCT ?

I guess I´m hoping that these two variables changes the odds.

I´m not positive it will work but it´s worth a try. I may be wrong and if so my 10 week cycle turned out to be a 16 week cycle which hopefully will
be ok.

If the experiment doesn´t work out I guess an option is not tapering the AAS and use Growth factors during PCT to control catabolism

[Jay Black]

avantgarde, on Feb 28 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

The graph was for test shots only which (according to Llwellyn) lead to testicular shrinkage which prolonged recovery.

Also note that testosterone was not budgeing until LH levels came back to near-max levels at week 10.

Now what if you use HCG during the cycle so that you get zero shrinkage and add a SERM to boost LH to high levels early in PCT ?

I guess I´m hoping that these two variables changes the odds.

I´m not positive it will work but it´s worth a try. I may be wrong and if so my 10 week cycle turned out to be a 16 week cycle which hopefully will
be ok.

If the experiment doesn´t work out I guess an option is not tapering the AAS and use Growth factors during PCT to control catabolism

That's what I like to do!

I hope this does work as well though. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade...on with the experiment!

[dashforce]

Jay Black, on Feb 28 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

LH may increase quickly/greatly, but not test...check out the graph (in the link) in the other PCT thread.

If LH is there and test is not responding, then something is wrong at the testicle (atrophy).

[Jay Black]

dashforce, on Feb 28 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

If LH is there and test is not responding, then something is wrong at the testicle (atrophy).

I meant test isn't rising as quickly as LH, but it is still rising.

[dashforce]

Considering this earlier today --

I wonder how much muscle you would actually "safe," as you will spend more time in a hypogonadal state this way. Will be a question of magnitude of hypogonadism vs duration.

Is it better to have the test of a 12 yr old girl for 4 weeks or the test of an 85 yr old man for 8? Interesting experiment.

[Jay Black]

dashforce, on Feb 28 2008, 08:38 PM, said:

Is it better to have the test of a 12 yr old girl for 4 weeks or the test of an 85 yr old man for 8? Interesting experiment.

Ummm, which one is lower? LOL Also, I'm assuming your thinking the girl for 4 weeks is if he uses the extra fast acting androgen up until PCT? My thoughts were that natty test production is going to bottom out around the same place (probably not hit as hard if you let the long ester take it's time), but less time with low T, couple with proper PCT (steroidal AI/clomid, just IMO), and perhaps IGF. I don't have any actual references for the IGF thing, but there is sure a ton of positive anecdotal feedback on it.

[Jakeshorts]

avantgarde, on Feb 27 2008, 05:28 PM, said:

So coming off a cycle sucks.

Past use have proved for me that despite regular use of HCG = balls of full size + SERM it seems the first few weeks of low testosterone levels are where the loss of muscle mass occurs and low libido is present.

This PCT I decided to try something different, the idea isn´t novel Cy Wilsons suggested this 4 years ago. Despite what some may think of him I ilke the idea of using a low dose transdermal testosterone (testogel) during the first part of PCT.

Even if recovery occurs at a slower rate than usual I´d rather avoid the first, crappy period andtubes go off the testogel into low-normal testosterone levels.

I´m going for

- 50 mg ED for 3 weeks
- 25 mg ED for 2 weeks
- 12,5 mg ED for 1 week.

I have 30 tubes so that works out about right in that aspect as well.
Of course a SERM will be taken alongside the testogel and for another 4 weeks after.

I expect/hope recovery without the testogel to take 6 weeks compared to 9 weeks with this protocol. Still worth it IMO especially i you don´t plan to go back on another cycle.

Have you read either Lyle's bromo book or SSE(Ross)'s shameless rip off of it's theory that bromo can help sustain the effects on the HPTA by means of modulating prolactin?

Thoughts on this? If you haven't, might I suggest adding it in either half way through your cycle or use it from the beginning

[avantgarde]

I am familiar with the use of bromocriptine . My only beef with Bromo is that to my understandig some prolactin is needed to maintain sensitivity of LH receptors in the testis.

This may not be an issue if your not in PCT and using it only in the morning. However during PCT it might be another story, I´m still debating this one, actually have both bromo and Vitex on hand.

Have you used bromo during PCT ?

[dashforce]

avantgarde, on Feb 29 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

My only beef with Bromo is that to my understandig some prolactin is needed to maintain sensitivity of LH receptors in the testis.

That's why bromo is preferable to caber -- shorter half life. Dose early-ish in the morning (~10am) and enough will have worn off to allow the nightly zenith of Prl -> natural androgen rhythms -> no problems. That's the theory anyway.

[captainbicept]

dashforce, on Feb 27 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

Wrong. LH will start coming back up as soon as test levels fall below a certain threshold (ie normal physiological range). Well before you hit rock bottom.

This sounds cool, I'm interested in how it goes for you.

I did not mean to imply that the testicular axis performed in manner similar to an on/off switch. However, when exogenous testosterone is being supplemented to the body, the body will remain partially supressed.
There are reasons bodybuilders and other athletes have abondoned the primo or dbol in the am styles of bridging.
I would be intersted in seeing how this pans out however. I would definately be interested in seeing blood work done 2 weeks into PCT and then again at the end of PCT.

[Jay Black]

avantgarde, on Feb 15 2008, 01:34 AM, said:

Bump.

The feedback I have seen is mixed. Would love to get some feedback from guys on this board (who I trust).

I´m in PCT and may run this in 6-8 weeks when recovered.

My list of experiments

1. EPO (just started).
2. CJC-1295 may add shortly.
3. HGG Fragments.
4. S-4 (Ostarine) - if I can find it.

How are these going, and how is the new PCT plan going?

[liorrh]

Jakeshorts, on Feb 29 2008, 07:45 AM, said:

Have you read either Lyle's bromo book or SSE(Ross)'s shameless rip off of it's theory that bromo can help sustain the effects on the HPTA by means of modulating prolactin?

Thoughts on this? If you haven't, might I suggest adding it in either half way through your cycle or use it from the beginning

please... now Lyle invented bromo and prolactin