[el es dee]

i was browsing the AM forums and people were talking about this. their protocol was 10-20mg for 12-16 weeks. to me this seems extreme, not to mention dangerous but im not the most knowledgeable person regarding these topics. so i ask you all. what do you think

[SupremeSportsEnhancements]

el es dee, on Feb 13 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

i was browsing the AM forums and people were talking about this. their protocol was 10-20mg for 12-16 weeks. to me this seems extreme, not to mention dangerous but im not the most knowledgeable person regarding these topics. so i ask you all. what do you think

Totally insane. These guys are using some "pulse protocol" developed by a guy named Dr.D, who is not an actual doctor nor someone whom I am very fond of.

The concept of "pulsing" is not his at all, such a protocol was once used for the administration of certain corticosteroids under certain medical conditions.

[Owen70]

el es dee, on Feb 13 2008, 11:45 AM, said:

i was browsing the AM forums and people were talking about this. their protocol was 10-20mg for 12-16 weeks. to me this seems extreme, not to mention dangerous but im not the most knowledgeable person regarding these topics. so i ask you all. what do you think

epi and anavar seems very similar to me in that they are both very mild

then again that means fucking weak
and thus fairly pointless
unless you're thinking looooooong term
but epi has no where near the clinical backup anavar has with regards to this
but i dont think you're gonna see tons of negatives, especially with adequate liver support.
eh, you can try it

[SupremeSportsEnhancements]

Owen70, on Feb 13 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

epi and anavar seems very similar to me in that they are both very mild

then again that means fucking weak
and thus fairly pointless
unless you're thinking looooooong term
but epi has no where near the clinical backup anavar has with regards to this
but i dont think you're gonna see tons of negatives, especially with adequate liver support.
eh, you can try it

Epistane is MORE LIVER TOXIC than Oxandrolone(Anavar), which CAN be ran for longe durations of time.

[Heavy_Lifter85]

SupremeSportsEnhancements, on Feb 13 2008, 02:11 PM, said:

Epistane is MORE LIVER TOXIC than Oxandrolone(Anavar), which CAN be ran for longe durations of time.

Any data to support this?

[Odium]

Owen70, on Feb 13 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

epi and anavar seems very similar to me in that they are both very mild

My experience with Havoc was far from "mild".

[Owen70]

Odium, on Feb 13 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

My experience with Havoc was far from "mild".

expand please

[Archaic]

Heavy_Lifter85, on Feb 13 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

Any data to support this?

Clinically anavar is sometimes even used on children for periods of time.

[Owen70]

Archaic, on Feb 13 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

Clinically anavar is sometimes even used on children for periods of time.

which isnt to say that they arent getting liver damage, but i know where you're going (devils advocate FTW)

[el es dee]

SupremeSportsEnhancements, on Feb 13 2008, 03:09 PM, said:

Totally insane. These guys are using some "pulse protocol" developed by a guy named Dr.D, who is not an actual doctor nor someone whom I am very fond of.

The concept of "pulsing" is not his at all, such a protocol was once used for the administration of certain corticosteroids under certain medical conditions.

im not talking about pulsing

[Odium]

Owen70, on Feb 13 2008, 08:04 PM, said:

expand please

Very noticeable strength and size gains with 15mg/d of Havoc for 4weeks.

[Kimbo]

Odium, on Feb 15 2008, 01:58 PM, said:

Very noticeable strength and size gains with 15mg/d of Havoc for 4weeks.

How did you dose out 15mg? It's 10mg caps, right?

[dashforce]

15?

[Odium]

Yes, 15mg. I would open up the caps. 5mg 3 times a day. I was/am happy to deal with the slight inconvenience to have a more a more even, consistent level.

[Kimbo]

IIRC the half-life is pretty long, more than 24 hours., but if it worked well for you then that's cool.

[Owen70]

Odium, on Feb 15 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

Yes, 15mg. I would open up the caps. 5mg 3 times a day. I was/am happy to deal with the slight inconvenience to have a more a more even, consistent level.

i hate to say this is n=1 but i rarely, if ever, have heard of anything under 30mg even being detectable, but then again, some like it that way. good shit anyways

[Colin]

Owen70, on Feb 15 2008, 06:01 PM, said:

i hate to say this is n=1 but i rarely, if ever, have heard of anything under 30mg even being detectable, but then again, some like it that way. good shit anyways

I used 20mg per day and felt a BIG difference in perceived effort e.g. some exercises feel absurdly light.

It has not effected my heavier pressing nor pulling,maximal effort poundages have been largely unchanged by 20mg.

No noticeable change in body comp,no more than would be expected given the caloric deficit and DNP usage.

[Odium]

Kimbo, on Feb 15 2008, 06:39 PM, said:

IIRC the half-life is pretty long, more than 24 hours., but if it worked well for you then that's cool.

That sounds rather suspect. If that were true, people would be sustaining 60mg in their system if using the standard 30mg/day. That seems way too high. And, it sure would shoot the whole pulsing bullshit right in the ass.


Owen, yes it is n=1. I'm relatively small and respond very very well to androgens. And I also take a marathon approach to this stuff. Meaning, I don't blitz myself with these androgens. It is not worth the sides and potential sides. My liver and I are on good terms.

[Odium]

Colin, on Feb 16 2008, 05:04 AM, said:

No noticeable change in body comp,no more than would be expected given the caloric deficit and DNP usage.

Somehow I doubt you can say this with complete confidence. Are/were you keeping meticulous logs? Have you used the same diet with DNP before? Was everything else kept the same?

[Colin]

Odium, on Feb 16 2008, 05:56 AM, said:

Somehow I doubt you can say this with complete confidence. Are/were you keeping meticulous logs? Have you used the same diet with DNP before? Was everything else kept the same?

I went from 192 to 186 in two weeks,the first week I used DNP (while on Havoc) and the second week was just Havoc.No variables other than CLA @ 25-30 grams per day.Kcals at a slight deficit.I am pretty fat though (20%-ish) now so discernable results are just about nil,which isn't to say that the Havoc didn't impart signifigant body comp benefits.I meant tyo state that they were not all that much beyond what would have been achieved with DNP and dieting alone(DNP at 200-400mg per day,whioch is the lower end side IME with DNP) perhaps that is an overstatement.

[el es dee]

what if we add low dose 11-OXO now?

[undecipherable]

I've seen a report somewhere else (I forget where) about a subject gaining strength while cutting from 13 to about 9% at 190# (caliper measured, fwiw) with 30-40mgs of Havoc, no subjective side effects. It was said that it generally took a lot of any substance to get a response out of this subject -- For reference, no great advantage, plenty of hassle with 250mg TE/week for 12 weeks, would probably double it next time, didn't respond much to previous experiments with HD50, or real OT at recommended doses (though good results the first time), but Havoc was definitely worthwhile. Tried SD at 10/20mg once, but abandoned due to unlivable side effects.

Would guess that var is hands down the best substance in this class in terms of strength increases, based on reports. Same subject mentioned firming/hardening on var, though no appreciable change in weight or size on 80mgs, FREAKISH strength gains, sustained only while taking the substance though, quickly evaporated afterwards.

For my own part, as a person who's curious about how the body works, I'd really like to know what causes the later effect, as it seems to have some cause other than spontaneous manifestation of slabs of muscle. If one looks at some of these substance profiles on the Internet, there's always a reference to the following explanation:

Quote

Oxandrolone does not increase strength through androgenic stimulation, at least not primarily. It stimulates the formation of phosphocreatine, a body compound that can replenish ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) , the main energy currency of the living organism. This gives an incredible increase in short term anaerobic performance, the type needed for explosive action such as sprinting and lifting weight.

Don't know who's quoting who, but they always say something like that. I've never seen a source to substantiate this claim, other than the many 'profiles' which effectively say the same thing. Can "stimulating the formation of phosphocreatine" really result in that kind of rapid and enormous strength increase, or is that BS? If so, are there other, non-androgenic means to encourage this? Certainly we're not talking about the sort of strength gains on might expect with creatine supplementation.