[Dobermann]

Im into day 6 for PCT of my first cycle which was 18 weeks of Test+Dbol.Im currently using clomid @ 50mg ED and morning wood is fine and im able to perform 1-2x a day! I basicaly feel like I do off cycle and im confused as iv'e suffered no decrease in sex drive although my boys have gone south

Can someone explain whats going on? I tought it was a given after you come off AAS your natty test is in the toilet for a while and so is ur sex drive?

[Benson]

Dobermann, on Dec 1 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

Im into day 6 for PCT of my first cycle which was 18 weeks of Test+Dbol.Im currently using clomid @ 50mg ED and morning wood is fine and im able to perform 1-2x a day! I basicaly feel like I do off cycle and im confused as iv'e suffered no decrease in sex drive although my boys have gone south

Can someone explain whats going on? I tought it was a given after you come off AAS your natty test is in the toilet for a while and so is ur sex drive?

Testicular size is a better indicator of shutdown than sex drive...libido and T levels don't often correlate well in that some men can have 'normal' libido with anything above castrate T levels.

The other thing to consider here is what sort of T preparation you were using and when was the last injection?

[Dobermann]

Benson, on Dec 2 2007, 01:14 AM, said:

Testicular size is a better indicator of shutdown than sex drive...libido and T levels don't often correlate well in that some men can have 'normal' libido with anything above castrate T levels.

The other thing to consider here is what sort of T preparation you were using and when was the last injection?

Ahhhh I see, thanks benson.

BTW

Test-E 250mg shot taken three weeks ago this monday in response to your question.

[The Bionic Man]

Dobermann, on Dec 1 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

Can someone explain whats going on? I tought it was a given after you come off AAS your natty test is in the toilet for a while and so is ur sex drive?

I wouldn't necessarrily say it's a "given"...

and I think your situation just goes to further prove the point that everyone reacts differently.

The clomid is probably helping a little..are you taking any other supplements?

[D-termine]

I used to recover a lot better early on, then again I was running 4-6 weekers. Count your blessings, that may not be the case forever. Also the begining of PCT has always seemed easier for me than the end. I think like others stated, its different for everyone.

[Jay Black]

Same for me DT, I can continue to gain even through the first week or two of PCT...but after that gains stall for a couple weeks.

[b182]

Drawing from my past experiences test and dbol tend to be very mild on the HPTA and recovery comes quickly. Tren or deca was another story, however.

[thebrakes]

same thing happens to me in the beginning of PCT, even when i taper early with a shorter ester. i assume it's a clomid thing. generally it will take a little while to put your libido in the shitter, but you might just be lucky.

and rest assured, you are shut down. it takes very little exogenous test to do that.

[Lost Metal]

This may be a dumb generalization but I've noticed, people with a lot of body hair (or maybe people who naturally produce a lot of DHT) don't seem to be "mentally" affected by the shutdown.

Just something I've consistently noticed as a long time bber.

[methodice]

are these people who have" a lot of body hair (or maybe people who naturally produce a lot of DHT)", the same people who have a full head of hair and experience less hair loss during cycles?

[Archaic]

I'm surprised noone answered this properly yet.

Dobermann, you are STILL on cycle. Enanthate ester has a halflife around 10 days, so it will be weeks to months (DEPENDING on the dosage of test you were using) before all the test is out of your system and then still more weeks before your HPTA fully recovers from the suppression of your endogenous testosterone production.

[Dobermann]

Archaic, on Jan 4 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

I'm surprised noone answered this properly yet.

Dobermann, you are STILL on cycle. Enanthate ester has a halflife around 10 days, so it will be weeks to months (DEPENDING on the dosage of test you were using) before all the test is out of your system and then still more weeks before your HPTA fully recovers from the suppression of your endogenous testosterone production.

Wow iv'e never heard this before! I thought after your last shot within two weeks the test has cleared!? anyway I finished up PCT two weeks ago the boys feel fuller sex drive is OK but im super depressed not felt like this till I started using arimidex halfway into PCT and during the first 6 weeks of my cycle.However I cant be sure if this is hormonal? or due to my present life and clinical depressive i'llness? Strength was kept to within 10% of ON untill I got i'll and spent the last 9 days without food or training bahhhhhhhhhhh.


So when can I expect to be back to pre cycle hormonally then?

[Archaic]

How much test were you taking weekly, what was the date of your last shot, what was the date you started and how long did you use clomid and when did you discontinue use?

[Dobermann]

Archaic, on Jan 4 2008, 08:37 PM, said:

How much test were you taking weekly, what was the date of your last shot, what was the date you started and how long did you use clomid and when did you discontinue use?

Hello Archaic,

To answer your questions

1.)I was using 500mg Test-E weekly
2.)My last shot was 8 weeks ago
3.)My cycle length where I ran test+dbol was for 16-18 weeks
4.)I used clomid @ 50mg ED for 28 days and Arimdex @ 2.5-3mg for days 14-28

[Jay Black]

Dobermann, on Jan 4 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

So when can I expect to be back to pre cycle hormonally then?

The only real accurate answer is bloodwork.

[thebrakes]

Dobermann, on Jan 4 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Hello Archaic,

To answer your questions

1.)I was using 500mg Test-E weekly
2.)My last shot was 8 weeks ago
3.)My cycle length where I ran test+dbol was for 16-18 weeks
4.)I used clomid @ 50mg ED for 28 days and Arimdex @ 2.5-3mg for days 14-28

that looks like a typo. i dont know anyone who's used more than 1mg of arimidex/day. do you mean letrozole aka femara?

you arent still on cycle, as the other fellow said, not back when it was 3 weeks since last shot and not now....but you may still be suppressed. get some test strips and find out. if you are, run another PCT or do a low-dose clomid regimen for 2 months or so and get em going again.

[Jay Black]

I say run clomid at 50mg for 8 weeks like thebrakes said. Include other stuff beneficial for liver, cholesterol, triglycerides, heart health, etc as well...after that, you should be good to go. Although, you may want to wait it out a bit...time on = time off?

I like to just stay on clomid, even when PCT is all said and done, just to maintain above normal test levels. Works great.

[Dobermann]

Jeff, on Jan 5 2008, 08:42 AM, said:

I say run clomid at 50mg for 8 weeks like thebrakes said. Include other stuff beneficial for liver, cholesterol, triglycerides, heart health, etc as well...after that, you should be good to go. Although, you may want to wait it out a bit...time on = time off?

I like to just stay on clomid, even when PCT is all said and done, just to maintain above normal test levels. Works great.

Anydown sides to using clomid for that long though Jeff?

And sorry I meant to put 0.25-0.30mcg i.e a 1/4 of a mg of arimidex.

[Jay Black]

Nope. I've never gotten any negative side effects from clomid. Nolva, OTOH, yes. Nor is nolva worth the risk. The mood swings people get from clomid are usually from dosing way too high (150mg ED for a week let's say) because it's halflife is 5 days, so it builds up in your system. 100mg for 2 weeks, followed by 50mg for another 4 weeks is my PCT (with aromasin, btw), then I just run it at 25-50mg to keep natty test levels above normal. Activate may be of some use as well with clomid/aromasin. I know I noticed a difference when I added that in.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the other reason why men get the moody women emotional side effects, it's all their heads, literally. They read about someone else who had it, thought it's the worst thing possible, were skeptical, and BAM, now they are getting emotional and cry "curse clomid!". It's actually rather annoying.

[Archaic]

Quote

1.)I was using 500mg Test-E weekly
2.)My last shot was 8 weeks ago
3.)My cycle length where I ran test+dbol was for 16-18 weeks
4.)I used clomid @ 50mg ED for 28 days and Arimdex @ 2.5-3mg for days 14-28

If your last shot was 8 weeks ago (56 days), and the halflife of test enanthate is 11 days (5 halflives ago) you can get a rough estimate of the amount of hormone still secreting into your system by taking 500/2 = 250 (11 days later)/2 = 125 (22 days later)/2 = 62.5 (33 days later) /2 = ~30 (44 days later)/2 = ~15mg (55 days later)left.

Consider that normally human testes produce ~7mg of testosterone daily NORMALLY. That's ~50mg of hormone weekly. Which means only for the last 2 weeks have your hormone levels truly dropped below what is physiological, which means your recovery just started.

That being said, I would continue clomid OR arimidex usage for at least another month to help with your HPTA recovery . In the next week or 2 is when you will experience a 'crash' so to speak, and it could continue for a couple months possibly. Which is why it is vital to stay on your anti-estrogens, and now would be the time to use mood enhancing products like rhodiola, sex-drive enhancing products like tribulus, and keep your calories up at this point to prevent muscle wasting while you're in an hypogonadal state.

Also keep weight training but don't keep up a really high volume routine, just make sure the intensity is there (aka hit it hard and then get out of the gym.)

Another recovery method you could try using is the tapering method, which I have found works wonders. It involves taking a dosage of long-ester testosterone every weeks which drops over subsequent weeks to so called lower yourself down gently.

You could start with getting a very small syringe and taking only 25mg/week (about a tenth of a cc). Then drop down weekly by 5mg over a month until you're taking nothing. I have found with going off long cycles, a taper of this type works wonders by keeping the 'crash' from being really harsh. With longer cycles, the longer the taper is better. I've tapered off an 8 month cycle with a 2 month long taper, and during the entire process, I never lost my sex drive, strength in the gym, or had a depressed mood.

[Archaic]

Jeff, on Jan 5 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

Nope. I've never gotten any negative side effects from clomid. Nolva, OTOH, yes. Nor is nolva worth the risk. The mood swings people get from clomid are usually from dosing way too high (150mg ED for a week let's say) because it's halflife is 5 days, so it builds up in your system. 100mg for 2 weeks, followed by 50mg for another 4 weeks is my PCT (with aromasin, btw), then I just run it at 25-50mg to keep natty test levels above normal. Activate may be of some use as well with clomid/aromasin. I know I noticed a difference when I added that in.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the other reason why men get the moody women emotional side effects, it's all their heads, literally. They read about someone else who had it, thought it's the worst thing possible, were skeptical, and BAM, now they are getting emotional and cry "curse clomid!". It's actually rather annoying.

Sorry I have to respond to this, I get weepy and teary eyed from even 50mg of clomiphene daily. I actually cried for the first time in 4 years after starting my first cycle of clomid a few years ago lol. I prefer nolvadex. But to each their own.

[Jay Black]

Archaic, on Jan 5 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Sorry I have to respond to this, I get weepy and teary eyed from even 50mg of clomiphene daily. I actually cried for the first time in 4 years after starting my first cycle of clomid a few years ago lol. I prefer nolvadex. But to each their own.

IF what you say isn't psychological, then you are a rare one. Most others, I call BS with a dose like that.

[thebrakes]

Dobermann, on Jan 5 2008, 07:37 AM, said:

Anydown sides to using clomid for that long though Jeff?

And sorry I meant to put 0.25-0.30mcg i.e a 1/4 of a mg of arimidex.

i also run 25mg clomid off-cycle for months on end, with no apparent downsides. am i moodier or more emotional? honestly...i dunno. i'm not on edge like during a cycle, that's for sure. do i cry all the time? no. maybe during a really sad movie i'll tear up, but i've always done that

[avantgarde]

I´d like to adress a few points here.

1. Clomid´s halflife is 5 days. Let´s take a minute to think about what that means : If you´re dosing 50 mg ED then eventually you will reach steady state levels of 300 mg. So I disagree with the bashing of frontloading the drug from day 1. You want that LH stimulation from the get go, taking 50 mg ED from day 1 of PCT just means it takes longer for the drug to reach steady-state.

2. The anecdotal feedback on the emotional sides are massive. The MOA of the drug mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist would seem the cause.
I have experienced this first hand (I was on 100 mg dose though) before I have ever read about them. Still I think Jeff makes an excellent point about the symtoms being overreported.

3. The mood effects may only be an issue during PCT. If normal testosterone is low. Inducing some estrogen agonism in various regions of the brain might be the ticket to moody-ville. If test is normal / seminormal this may not be an issue. I think it´s worth keeping in mind that the low test levels alone will cause mood problems for most men. (and women as well) : PMID: 17182106.

So Clomid alone would seem more like an acsessory (sp. english is not my first language) than a main offender for mood problems during PCT.

4. Nolva does appear to be toxic. Is this relevant when used for a period of 4-6 weeks during PCT ? I don´t know, I´m not taking any chances.

5. Toremifene would seem like the best deal in terms of low toxicity while being devoid of the mood effects. It is not as proven as Clomid for PCT. But very likely it works and works well.
PMID: 17412336

Since it isn´t "proven" for PCT I would not put all money/balls on it just yet personally my PCT will be 25 mg Clomid = proven for PCT but the moderate dose should minimize the mood problems. Along with 60 mg Toremifene - not proven but very likely boosts LH.

[Dobermann]

Archaic, on Jan 6 2008, 12:31 AM, said:

If your last shot was 8 weeks ago (56 days), and the halflife of test enanthate is 11 days (5 halflives ago) you can get a rough estimate of the amount of hormone still secreting into your system by taking 500/2 = 250 (11 days later)/2 = 125 (22 days later)/2 = 62.5 (33 days later) /2 = ~30 (44 days later)/2 = ~15mg (55 days later)left.

Consider that normally human testes produce ~7mg of testosterone daily NORMALLY. That's ~50mg of hormone weekly. Which means only for the last 2 weeks have your hormone levels truly dropped below what is physiological, which means your recovery just started.

That being said, I would continue clomid OR arimidex usage for at least another month to help with your HPTA recovery . In the next week or 2 is when you will experience a 'crash' so to speak, and it could continue for a couple months possibly. Which is why it is vital to stay on your anti-estrogens, and now would be the time to use mood enhancing products like rhodiola, sex-drive enhancing products like tribulus, and keep your calories up at this point to prevent muscle wasting while you're in an hypogonadal state.

Also keep weight training but don't keep up a really high volume routine, just make sure the intensity is there (aka hit it hard and then get out of the gym.)

Another recovery method you could try using is the tapering method, which I have found works wonders. It involves taking a dosage of long-ester testosterone every weeks which drops over subsequent weeks to so called lower yourself down gently.

You could start with getting a very small syringe and taking only 25mg/week (about a tenth of a cc). Then drop down weekly by 5mg over a month until you're taking nothing. I have found with going off long cycles, a taper of this type works wonders by keeping the 'crash' from being really harsh. With longer cycles, the longer the taper is better. I've tapered off an 8 month cycle with a 2 month long taper, and during the entire process, I never lost my sex drive, strength in the gym, or had a depressed mood.

Damm Archaic im shocked!!! I was under the impression you do PCT for 28 days and your all done as you body start to recover from that point on and your out of the woods so to speak!? The fact I could be heading for a big crash is rather alarming I had though the worst was behind me.I have noticed anxiety is through the roof the last week or so something I havent normally felt like since way before I started cycle.So the fact my test is only now at it's lowest ebb would explain a lot.I have to say though your PCT is rather agressive compared to most 8 weeks+? So given my situation what would be my best course of action hit clomid for another 4 weeks @ 50mg? or take the long ester route for 4 weeks? would Test-C suffice for this? Thanks BTW

On another note any future PCT would be something like 8 weeks of clomid @ 50mg correct!? And when can I assume im out of the woods in terms of strength gains kept?

[Archaic]

Personally I wouldn't have started the clomid until 2-4 weeks AFTER my last shot because it takes a while for the test levels in your system to drop. And then I'd continue the Anti-E treatment until 4-6 weeks after the test shots wear off. You could call this an aggressve PCT plan, however think about it like this... For 18 weeks you've been destroying the natural balance of your hormones, it will take a while for them to get back to normal.



For now, yes an extra month of clomid would be a good idea.

And if you do the tapering method, still take your anti-estrogens to help speed your recovery. Test decanoate, cypionate or enanthate would be fine for the tapering method.

[Archaic]

Jeff, on Jan 5 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

IF what you say isn't psychological, then you are a rare one. Most others, I call BS with a dose like that.

The funny thing is, I had never even heard of the mood-changing effects of clomid until after I started taking it... Then started doing some research and the anecdotal evidence I collected suggests that it's not uncommon for men to get mood-fluctuations from clomiphene.

As for toxicity, most of the research was done on older post menopausal women recovering from breast cancer on chronic doses of nolva/clomid for years. Can we extrapolate these conclusions to men in their 20s and 30s using them for a couple months a year? I don't know. Personally I like to take bilberry extract, alpha lipoic acid (R isomer), and plenty of other anti-oxidants during my clomid cycles.

But I'm not especially paranoid about using clomid, otherwise I'd just use low dose letrozole or another Aromatase inhibitor which is just as good post-cycle for estrogen management.

[Benson]

Archaic, on Jan 6 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

As for toxicity, most of the research was done on older post menopausal women recovering from breast cancer on chronic doses of nolva/clomid for years. Can we extrapolate these conclusions to men in their 20s and 30s using them for a couple months a year? I don't know.

Clomiphene is not used for cancer treatment in men or women and there have been several long term studies of clomid in men (25-50mg/day for 12-24 months) that have shown no sign of toxicity. Tamoxifen is a different story altogether.

[ozzman]

Three month on clomid and counting....Never emotional, irritable yeah and at first I had hot flashes.

And avantgarde...I'm not sure of your math..50 mg 5 days half life gives you a staeady state of 100 mg around week two..it never goes higher than that

[thebrakes]

ozzman, on Jan 6 2008, 05:19 PM, said:

Three month on clomid and counting....Never emotional, irritable yeah and at first I had hot flashes.

And avantgarde...I'm not sure of your math..50 mg 5 days half life gives you a staeady state of 100 mg around week two..it never goes higher than that

your math is bad. perhaps you are not considering the ED dosing scheme. by day 4 you are at 200mg