[habit]

What OTC supps, if any, do you guys use for PCT? Any hormonal product like Activate or Rebound, 6-OXO, or would those HPTA recovery?

What say you geniuses, is just a SERM all you really need and/or can PCT be me more effective with other supps?

[habit]

uniquenutrition, on Nov 8 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

OTC SERMS blow in comparision. Just my opinion. Go with Raloxifene.

I wasn't referring to OTC SERMS specifically, just ANYTHING OTC or supplement wise that could help with PCT. DHEA? Rebound Reloaded, anything like that is what I meant.

I am torn between Ralox and Clomid at the moment. There isn't THAT much data on using Ralox standalone for PCT (or at all for PCT) which kind of keeps me at bay. Nolva and Clomid have been tried and true for years and mentioned on every halfway decent BB forum I have ever been to a million times. They get points for that....

I hadn't heard much of Ralox until I was reading around here, either that or I just never paid attention. I really am excited about it's help with gyno.

[habit]

uniquenutrition, on Nov 8 2007, 09:56 PM, said:

Dash likes Ralox. Nolva only BB's still use that old drug lol.

Says who. Nolva is IMO the most widely talked about, then clomid, as far as PCT goes, and this is from tons of sites.

If I am wrong, which it appears I have been to some degree about Nolva I am switching and glad for the information, but it doesn't change the fact that there are TONS of people using this drug for PCT out there.

[D-termine]

I wouldn't consider PCT without Activate, and I guess I'll prob switch to the new Activate Extreme for this PCT. I also use Retain to block cortisol. Been using Nolva, but with my sight issues and all, I think I'll be switching to Clomid as per Benson's advice. Also I love thunder from Omega as a CEE product, I don't think a good post cycle would go without it.

[Colin]

D-termine, on Nov 9 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

Also I love thunder from Omega as a CEE product, I don't think a good post cycle would go without it.

SyntheSIZE would be the better choice PCT for its much more pronounced ability to amplify the effect of food.

[Mitosis]

Though it may not restore HPTA I find for libido issues....

cialis

tribulus

longjack

epimedium

cabergoline/bromocriptine(I know I know...heart failure)


I have had success with nolva and clomid....but for safety concerns I will go with either clomid or ralox in the future.


I find the following help with retaining gains...and intensity...

IGF-1R3

clen

eca

creatine

beta-alanine

citr malate

ALCAR

Forskolin

Nettle root


For mood I use...

Phenibut

ALCAR

AMP/stims

[zuper1]

Mitosis, on Nov 9 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

Though it may not restore HPTA I find for libido issues....

cialis

tribulus

longjack

epimedium

cabergoline/bromocriptine(I know I know...heart failure)


I have had success with nolva and clomid....but for safety concerns I will go with either clomid or ralox in the future.


I find the following help with retaining gains...and intensity...

IGF-1R3

clen

eca

creatine

beta-alanine

citr malate

ALCAR

Forskolin

Nettle root


For mood I use...

Phenibut

ALCAR

AMP/stims

As for libido I'd choose longjack

[D-termine]

I'll second Clen, I used to use it during PCT, but like most of my favorite drugs, I can no longer tolerate it

[lordshockspeare]

I'll suggest Grapeseed Extract. It has a host beneficially properties, including normalizing lipids, antioxidant, arthero-protection and most significant is its Anti-aromatase properties. I just bumped an old thread in the Health forum that has relevant studies describing the health effects. All seem beneficial in post cycle (or anytime).

I'm still trying to find the dosage needed to create a estrogen controlling effect. I wish I could use myself as a better guinea pig. I have great insurance but I need a doctor to order the blood tests. All the doctors I know feel herbs and supplements don't offer much in the way of clinical relevance.

Are there any OTC serms? I only know of AI's
Maybe reserverteral could be a SERM.

Fenugreek has a significant following at Anabolicminds

[Odium]

6OXO. It really jacks up DHT (probably don't need to explain why this would be good for PCT) for me...but I seem to be especially prone to this effect.

[Fecal McAngry]

habit, on Nov 8 2007, 09:37 PM, said:

I wasn't referring to OTC SERMS specifically, just ANYTHING OTC or supplement wise that could help with PCT. DHEA? Rebound Reloaded, anything like that is what I meant.

I am torn between Ralox and Clomid at the moment. There isn't THAT much data on using Ralox standalone for PCT (or at all for PCT) which kind of keeps me at bay. Nolva and Clomid have been tried and true for years and mentioned on every halfway decent BB forum I have ever been to a million times. They get points for that....

I hadn't heard much of Ralox until I was reading around here, either that or I just never paid attention. I really am excited about it's help with gyno.

If you're mildly suppressed and want something OTC, I suggest giving http://ergopharm.net...6oxoextreme.php a try. It's a combo of an AI and a weak SERM.

If you're really suppressed, I'd go with clomid, at least for starters...

[habit]

Fecal McAngry, on Nov 9 2007, 05:57 PM, said:

If you're mildly suppressed and want something OTC, I suggest giving http://ergopharm.net...6oxoextreme.php a try. It's a combo of an AI and a weak SERM.

If you're really suppressed, I'd go with clomid, at least for starters...

Thanks for the replies. I will check into Activate Extreme, although I thought people running that had to run PCT after it anway, but the memory elludes me. Regardless, it isn't suppressive in and of itself?


This 6-OXO Extreme, does it do the same as the regular for jacking up DHT, and would more DHT help with gyno, considering DHT inhibitors cause gyno to some degree (ie, finasteride).

As far as supression goes, my boys are hanging low and always have on these test dbol cycles, so as far as that being a marker of suppresion I am not sure, but I've heard it's' a good indicator.

Either way I wanted to run a strong SERM like clomid just to be on the safe side, but if it isn't needed due to low supression (how to tell?) then I won't bother. It just seems like a staple for most in the know, so I follow the lead on that one.

As far as ralox I am very interested IRT to gyno (which has gotten to be a bit of a problem this cycle and I am currently starting Nolva for) but also as a standalone in PCT, ie, replacing clomid. Anyone know of it used by itself for PCT?

As far as CEE I am running that through the cycle anyway and will continue to do so post. I will certainly check into synthSize as I have heard good things.

[Jakeshorts]

You must be one of the few still taking CEE.... http://blog.bodybuilding.com/deserusan/200...ise-to-the-top/

[habit]

Jakeshorts, on Nov 13 2007, 07:51 AM, said:

You must be one of the few still taking CEE.... http://blog.bodybuilding.com/deserusan/200...ise-to-the-top/

So what I am to take from that, that bioavailability is not what it claims and to up the dose or just drop it all together for CM? I usually take at least 5g CEE postworkout which I believe is double the rec. dose anway.

If it is something else other than bioavailability, why is it so bad? Seems others had good enough sucess with it.

Besides, BB.com? Who the fuck even bothers to go there anymore? (not saying there isn't truth to the study, but I take everything I read there, WHEN I am there, with a huge grain)

[Jakeshorts]

obviously bb.com didn't do the study that's just the link I found first to copy and paste as an example not to mention deserusan the author of the article is on here as well. Just because it's on bb.com doesn't mean it's not valid. It's not the bio that's the problem it's the speed in which it converts to creatinine in your stomach. It degrades faster than it can make it into your intestines before it's obsorbed.

So I guess you can call that a bioavailability problem, but it's something like 20%. At the cost of the product it's ridiculous to continue to take it. CM has better obsorption rates, less degredation and at 10 bucks a kilo would be silly not to use.

[habit]

Jakeshorts, on Nov 13 2007, 10:09 AM, said:

obviously bb.com didn't do the study that's just the link I found first to copy and paste as an example not to mention deserusan the author of the article is on here as well. Just because it's on bb.com doesn't mean it's not valid. It's not the bio that's the problem it's the speed in which it converts to creatinine in your stomach. It degrades faster than it can make it into your intestines before it's obsorbed.

So I guess you can call that a bioavailability problem, but it's something like 20%. At the cost of the product it's ridiculous to continue to take it. CM has better obsorption rates, less degredation and at 10 bucks a kilo would be silly not to use.

So since I have a ton of CEE can i just take 5X the normal dosing, hoping at 20% oral bioavailiblity I would be getting the same benefits as 1/5 the amount in CM?

What about this degradation issue, would the above solution of just eating more CEE be enough to not worry about this?

Also, can anyone give me a quick breakdown of 6-OXO vs Activate vs Activate Extreme, the diffs of each an in your opinion the best for PCT. Can you stack them (just the 6-OXO and Activate Extreme)? Is this too much and would any of these possibly shut you down even longer, alone or stacked?

TIA

[Benson]

habit, on Nov 26 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

Also, can anyone give me a quick breakdown of 6-OXO vs Activate vs Activate Extreme, the diffs of each an in your opinion the best for PCT. Can you stack them (just the 6-OXO and Activate Extreme)? Is this too much and would any of these possibly shut you down even longer, alone or stacked?

TIA

6-OXO is an antiestrogen via inhibition of aromatase. It appears to make your T levels go up because your body thinks its deficient because of the lack of estrogen.

Activate and Activate Xtreme are designed to deactivate SHBG in order to raise your free T levels. The Xtreme formula has some additional herbs in it that are believed to increase T production.

The two products can be stacked, and will not cause shutdown.

[habit]

Benson, on Nov 26 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

6-OXO is an antiestrogen via inhibition of aromatase. It appears to make your T levels go up because your body thinks its deficient because of the lack of estrogen.

Activate and Activate Xtreme are designed to deactivate SHBG in order to raise your free T levels. The Xtreme formula has some additional herbs in it that are believed to increase T production.

The two products can be stacked, and will not cause shutdown.

Thanks Benson, once again......

Is a clomid, oxo, activate PCT something you would use personally, just of out curiosity?

[Benson]

habit, on Nov 26 2007, 09:02 PM, said:

Thanks Benson, once again......

Is a clomid, oxo, activate PCT something you would use personally, just of out curiosity?

I'd probably just use the clomid. I am not convinced there is added benefit from depressing your estrogen levels during PCT.

I'm still on the hunt but it appears that in addition to 'blinding' your HPTA, there is some faint evidence that clomid has a direct effect on the testes as well...my own experience (and I have seen others say the same) is that clomid taken on cycle will reverse testicular shrinkage...something that shouldn't work if the only action is via the HP...

Save the activate for when your T levels are back up to full throttle.

[habit]

And the 6-OXO? Hold off on that as well?

[Benson]

habit, on Nov 26 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

And the 6-OXO? Hold off on that as well?

I would but there is no consensus on the coincident use of an AI during PCT, some people swear by it but I can't see how it will work any better than a SERM which gives you the benefits of low E without the negatives.

Mike Scally, a physician who posts on some of these boards and who claims to have treated thousands of AAS users, uses only clomid and occasionally nolvadex for PCT...

[Jay Black]

habit, on Nov 26 2007, 09:02 PM, said:

Thanks Benson, once again......

Is a clomid, oxo, activate PCT something you would use personally, just of out curiosity?

IMO, part of this depends on the androgens used...but I would think that using a low dose 6oxo (1-2 caps nightly) and Activate (XT or old school) two weeks into PCT would be a good idea, while continuing the clomid. Two weeks into PCT your test levels should be on the rise, so then you can benefit from the extra free test Activate will release...also, just IME, Activate works best with an AI, which is the reason I suggested using 6-oxo if you already have it with your Activate and clomid...Lastly, IME, clomid/Activate/aromasin are having a profound effect when all stacked together...so just substituting aromasin with 6-oxo I think should work out almost as well.

[blazin]

And noone says Toremifene yet for a serm, this is money when i have used it over nolva.

[habit]

blazin, on Nov 27 2007, 05:06 PM, said:

And noone says Toremifene yet for a serm, this is money when i have used it over nolva.

Most rated it behind clomid, which I have decided to go with. Just way more data and user accounts with clomid and nolva than toremifine.

[zuper1]

Benson, on Nov 27 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

Mike Scally, a physician who posts on some of these boards and who claims to have treated thousands of AAS users, uses only clomid and occasionally nolvadex for PCT...

Benson,
Can you tell in which cases uses Nolva?

[Benson]

zuper1, on Nov 29 2007, 09:02 PM, said:

Benson,
Can you tell in which cases uses Nolva?

Nope he doesn't say...I suspect when he is more concerned about gyno.

[Pound4Pound]

habit, on Nov 9 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

There isn't THAT much data on using Ralox standalone for PCT (or at all for PCT) which kind of keeps me at bay.

FWIW, I used Ralox solo for Havoc PCT and ended up getting gyno in one of my nips.

[methodice]

Are you sure the ralox was legit?

[nightop]

Dietary supplements are not OTC drugs, and vice versa. I know I'm being an ass, but this terminology confusion really bothers me.

[Pound4Pound]

methodice, on Jan 29 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

Are you sure the ralox was legit?

yup, it was pharm grade.