[Pound4Pound]

What would you recommend for PCT?

Nolva

Raloxifene

Nolva + formestane (topical)



What else should/could I throw in there?


Would there be any benefit in running the ralox with the havoc?


gyno

[dashforce]

How long you going to run this for? Epitiostanol (havoc's supposed parent compound) didn't do much WRT gyno until wk 3, and results continued until 9-10. 10 week havoc cycle might be pretty harsh on your liver.

Ralox showed varying results, some in 2 months some in 12 IIRC.

IMO the androgen: estrogen ratio is critical; not a terrible idea to run the two together to compound the effects.

What dosage you going to run? Many anecdotal reports show 20mg/day to be best for gyno; the epitiostanol injectable was run 20mg/wk (highest dose used, was more effective than 10mg/wk).

[Pound4Pound]

I was thinking 4 or 5 weeks, peak dosage of 30mg.

Should I run it longer or up the dose?

[dashforce]

To be honest, I don't recall anyone that I trust to have seen any gyno results from havostane. Probably just do what you like. If I had to take a random, uneducated guess, I would bet 20 mg ED for 10 weeks would be best. But I wouldn't risk that unless you were quite vigilant about your lipids and liver health.

[Kimbo]

dashforce, on Nov 7 2007, 09:37 PM, said:

To be honest, I don't recall anyone that I trust to have seen any gyno results from havostane. Probably just do what you like. If I had to take a random, uneducated guess, I would bet 20 mg ED for 10 weeks would be best. But I wouldn't risk that unless you were quite vigilant about your lipids and liver health.

Maybe a blood test at the 5 week mark would be a good idea too. Havoc wrecked my HDL after 6 weeks, even while I was on Sesathin and few other liver support supps. IIRC I did 10, 20, 20, 30, 20, 10.

[Pound4Pound]

to be honest, i'm not really expecting any sort of gyno reduction. I'm a supp skeptic and being a non-responder to more things than I'd prefer doesn't help.

I wanted to try Havoc out of desperation and if i get a little bigger in the process, i wont complain.

I've tried letro, toremifene, ATD and topical formestane in the past but none had an effect on my gyno.

[Travis]

Pound4Pound, on Nov 7 2007, 09:16 PM, said:

What would you recommend for PCT?

Nolva

Raloxifene

Nolva + formestane (topical)
What else should/could I throw in there?
Would there be any benefit in running the ralox with the havoc?
gyno

Nolva or Ralox would be sufficient. The form wont even be needed at the doses your planing (assuming a peak of 30mg's). How much do you weigh?

You do not need the ralox on cycle, its a very dry compound.

FWIW, I have run havoc once and Epidrol (clone) once at much higher doses. Also bloodwork did not show any significant signs of stress for me...however lipids were a lil out of wack (primarily HDL).

[Pound4Pound]

Travis, on Nov 7 2007, 10:10 PM, said:

Nolva or Ralox would be sufficient. The form wont even be needed at the doses your planing (assuming a peak of 30mg's). How much do you weigh?

You do not need the ralox on cycle, its a very dry compound.

FWIW, I have run havoc once and Epidrol (clone) once at much higher doses. Also bloodwork did not show any significant signs of stress for me...however lipids were a lil out of wack (primarily HDL).

I'm around 187#, 5'9" and ~6% bf

What was your dosing schedule? Did you gain any weight? Did you keep it after PCT?

I mentioned formestane because it can potentiate tamoxifen action: http://dmd.aspetjour...t/full/27/3/389

[Travis]

Pound4Pound, on Nov 7 2007, 10:22 PM, said:

I'm around 187#, 5'9" and ~6% bf

What was your dosing schedule? Did you gain any weight? Did you keep it after PCT?

I mentioned formestane because it can potentiate tamoxifen action: http://dmd.aspetjour...t/full/27/3/389

My first cycle was just havoc, ran it at 20/30/30/40 for 4 weeks. I went from about 200lb's to 212 with pry about 6-7 of that lean gains. I ran a cut after that but I definitely retained some of the muscle. PCT = Nolva 40/30/20/10 with Massfx, no AI.

2nd cycle was Epidrol stacked with Primordial's Dermacrine. Dosage of epidrol was like 30/40/50/60/70. Went from 204lbs to about 216 (not all lean). That was about 2 months ago and I am sitting at 223lbs right now. PCT = Nolva 10/5/0 with Primordials Dermacrine Sustain.

I felt great during both PCT's. Better than when I was on in fact.

I've seen the Form study showing that, and it wouldnt hurt. However from my standpoint it really isnt needed. I had bloodwork done after PCT for both cycles. If you'd like to see it let me know. Its posted elsewhere but I can bring it over here if your interested.

After both those cycles my opinion is that the sweet spot is right in the 40-50mg range.

[razg]

Whats wrong with clomid?

[dashforce]

Nothing wrong with it that I know of, ralox just seems to get the job done better AFA ER blocking (wide spectrum). However, clomid does appear to have greater T elevation potential, so that's something to be considered.

[razg]

dashforce, on Nov 10 2007, 02:35 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with it that I know of, ralox just seems to get the job done better AFA ER blocking (wide spectrum). However, clomid does appear to have greater T elevation potential, so that's something to be considered.

Ralox is of course superior against gyno, but if we're talking HPTA recovery, Clomid has repeatedly been shown to be highly effective.

[Colin]

dashforce, on Nov 10 2007, 06:35 AM, said:

Nothing wrong with it that I know of, ralox just seems to get the job done better AFA ER blocking (wide spectrum). However, clomid does appear to have greater T elevation potential, so that's something to be considered.

But does highly dosed ralox (120mg e/d with fat at the last meal of the day) not offer T elevation along the lines of TRT with injectible (low dosed test say 75mg)?

I had planned on ralox for an extended period of time as I do not want to take androgens (liver issues) and am looking forward to an effective TRT protocol from ralox putting me in the upper end of average T levels.GYno elimination of course is also the main reason I have decided on ralox.

[Pound4Pound]

Travis, on Nov 7 2007, 11:15 PM, said:

2nd cycle was Epidrol stacked with Primordial's Dermacrine. Dosage of epidrol was like 30/40/50/60/70.

Did the high dose shut you down?

[lordshockspeare]

Colin, you would be using Raloxifen in place of TRT? You were just wondering if 120mg/day ~= 75mg/week test? or were you going to do both?

I am currently doing TRT right now too. 125mg/week puts at mid range test levels mid week.
I tried using SERMS before and Clomid 50mg/day for a month only brought me up to the very bottom of the range, ~400
Identical results with Nolva at 20mg/day, both times my levels plummeted after stopping the SERM. I never tried Raloxifen, but in my experience the side effects of long term SERM use or much worse then TRT doses. My need for TRT stem from a Varicocele in which my low testosterone levels arise from malfunctioning testes, so SERMS are inherintly ineffective for me.

Using injectable Testosterone for TRT should cause no liver problems, if anything it should help. One thing that makes SERMs good cancer fighters is the fact they lower IGF-1 which is responsible for tumor growth. For folks without cancer and especially bodybuilders this would be a major side effect and a good reason not to continually use a SERM. For mild Test elevation Arimi or Aromasin or 6-OXO etc (AI's) would be better, with less side effects.

[Jay Black]

lordshockspeare, on Nov 13 2007, 04:37 PM, said:

I am currently doing TRT right now too. 125mg/week puts at mid range test levels mid week.
I tried using SERMS before and Clomid 50mg/day for a month only brought me up to the very bottom of the range, ~400
Identical results with Nolva at 20mg/day, both times my levels plummeted after stopping the SERM. I never tried Raloxifen, but in my experience the side effects of long term SERM use or much worse then TRT doses. My need for TRT stem from a Varicocele in which my low testosterone levels arise from malfunctioning testes, so SERMS are inherintly ineffective for me.

Since when is 1 month on clomid long term? What "long-term" side effects could you have possibly had from 1 month on clomid at 50mg ED? You don't think your natural testosterone production is already slowed/shutdown from TRT? You don't think your test levels will plummet after coming off TRT?

Quote

One thing that makes SERMs good cancer fighters is the fact they lower IGF-1 which is responsible for tumor growth.

Clomid reduces IGF? Show me...

[Colin]

lordshockspeare, on Nov 13 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

Colin, you would be using Raloxifen in place of TRT? You were just wondering if 120mg/day ~= 75mg/week test? or were you going to do both?

I was trying to get clarification on how effective 120mg would be for TRT ( too lazy) but Pubmed shows it to be quite effective,after searching.

I plan on using ralox for at least a couple months after I do a 10 week cycle of ralox+injectible epiostaniol,to ensure rebound is not an issue.It is pretty damn expensive though so low dose 6-oxo (1 cap every other day) would be the better suited towards half a year.Clomid at 25mg per day seems without a doubt the best TRT available.

[Travis]

Pound4Pound, on Nov 13 2007, 04:00 PM, said:

Did the high dose shut you down?

Surprisingly not too bad at all. I was more shutdown from the havoc cycle without the Dermacrine. I should say this was only in relation to "physical" signs of shutdown. I did not get test levels with my blood work.

[Pound4Pound]

Well, just to update this, I used raloxiene at 60mg/day for a month annnnnnnd... I got gyno in my LEFT nipple (where there were no signs of gyno prior to this). The Havoc did remove almost all tenderness in my right nip but now my left nip is sore as hell.

[razg]

To clarify, you developed gyno during post-Havoc PCT, whilst using Ralox?

[Pound4Pound]

i started getting a weird soreness in the VERY TIPS of my nips during the last week of Havoc so I took some nolva. Then during PCT (Ralox) I developed a somewhat large lump that became very tender - and still is.

[razg]

Pound4Pound, on Jan 6 2008, 09:26 PM, said:

i started getting a weird soreness in the VERY TIPS of my nips during the last week of Havoc so I took some nolva. Then during PCT (Ralox) I developed a somewhat large lump that became very tender - and still is.

That's worrying, given that Ralox is supposed to be the king of anti-gyno SERMs.

[dashforce]

Odd. What was your havoc cycle like? I'm not seeing it, but I may be just blind. When did the lump appear during PCT? How were you taking your ralox?

[Pound4Pound]

Havoc: 20mg - 1.5 weeks, 30mg - 2 weeks, 40mg - .5 week, 20mg - 1 week (roughly)

week 5: developed a weird soreness on the VERY TIPS of my nipples so I dropped the Havoc dose to 20mg and started nolva @ 20mg, and topical formestane (there's synergy between the two)

week 6-9: 60mg Ralox ed

Ancillary supps: AI Cycle Support, NAC, Idebenone, tons of Vit-C, Vit-E, B-complex, fish oil, cissus, NA-RALA, 1-carboxy...

It's hard to remember when exactly the lump started to appear b/c the whole time i was super paranoid. But, I think it was early in PCT.

[dashforce]

Why did you drop the dose to 20 that last week?

[Pound4Pound]

b/c i started getting a weird soreness in my nips. I've heard higher doses can aggravate gyno so i wanted to reduce it

[dashforce]

So the soreness began to develop ~week 4 then, not week five. While you were at high dose and not small?

Odd -- it's supposed to be a DHT derivative, so I would expect any level of suppression to drive T down, but E2 to the floor along with it. The increase AR signalling with low E2 should be anti-gyno, I would think. Perhaps E2 -> ERb's suppressive effects are nullified by low E2, and havoc's anti-estrogen effects stimulate transcription at ERb instead of stopping it (different ligands are shown to have different effects upon activation). Damn, don't know.