[D-termine]

So I recall this being pretty big on AM a while back, and I have to say it was only mildly interesting to me at the time. But now I think it might be fun to play around with considering I'm already cruisin' on a moderate dose of Test. I was thinking maybe some SD as I have only a few pills left, and Superdrol and I have always had a real Love Hate relationship. Perhaps pulsing would offer a good medium. Anyone tried this method? I know Dr D doesn't exactly have a fan base around here, but this method seems to be getting nicely reviewed over at AM


A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.


What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:
1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!

[Kimbo]

uniquenutrition, on Oct 16 2007, 03:35 PM, said:

Did this with Havoc and it rocked! Damn i need to order more.

What did you do exactly? And what was PCT like? I've got two bottles burning a hole through the door of my fridge.

[D-termine]

Here's my plan, I workout Monday through Saturday, Wednesday being cardio and perhaps some ab work. I plan on taking it T/Th/Sa for Back day(Tues), Bi/Tri day(Thurs) and then my catch-up/weak area day on Saturday. I hit it hard already, being on a fairly large dose of TD Test, my workouts run quite long so the addition of some SD will be great. I'll take 20mg of Superdrol directly before my workout and 10mg directly after it. I have about 2 weeks worth at this dosing. It's not the ideal days for it, being that my leg days are spread out on Monday and Friday, but w/e, this should be fun.

[billm311]

D-termine, on Oct 16 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

Here's my plan, I workout Monday through Saturday, Wednesday being cardio and perhaps some ab work. I plan on taking it T/Th/Sa for Back day(Tues), Bi/Tri day(Thurs) and then my catch-up/weak area day on Saturday. I hit it hard already, being on a fairly large dose of TD Test, my workouts run quite long so the addition of some SD will be great. I'll take 20mg of Superdrol directly before my workout and 10mg directly after it. I have about 2 weeks worth at this dosing. It's not the ideal days for it, being that my leg days are spread out on Monday and Friday, but w/e, this should be fun.

The biggest problem people had with the whole pulse method is the varying hormone levels that this causes. With the hormone levels varying so greatly, some members worried it would cause some of the side effects to have a greater impact.

if you look at the extended thread over there, you can see this is actually part of the original design for dr. d, as he has done it with d-bol.


I haven't heard too many complaints though. many do it at AM, but i have not seen to much comparative blood work to prove one way better than the other. I personally like to keep it steady throughout. but thats me.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/62...ulse-orals.html

[jartimus256]

so could you for instance run oxandrolone 3 times per week, 20mg taken first thing in the morning.
Then the other 4 days in the week run a Serm such as clomid or nolva as a t booster.

[D-termine]

He does recomend the T-booster, I'd probably go with Activate. Then again if I was so scared of hormones in the first place, I don't think I'd bother to pussy footing it like this. However being ON cycle, this is interesting because I dislike Superdrol for its sides, but perhaps the manner in which I'm using it I can avoid those detrimental sides. That said just had a sick workout after my intitial dose of SD, seemed to be a better pump than normal but that could be just placebo.

[billm311]

jartimus256, on Oct 16 2007, 05:33 PM, said:

so could you for instance run oxandrolone 3 times per week, 20mg taken first thing in the morning.
Then the other 4 days in the week run a Serm such as clomid or nolva as a t booster.

from what i can remember, suggestion where to try testboosters/ minor AIs on off days - things like tribs, icariin, bromo, oxo, and the likes. This could work as laid out, but pulsing also "allows" for higher dosages of things (like from 20-30 up to 40-60). Some of the proposed numbers i heard i thought crazy, as I am still a little leary on the whole thing. I would hold off on serms till the PCT.

I pulsed m-TRN on workout days with hyperdrol inbetween (for the bromo, cissus). I felt it went really well. I did not "feel" shutdown one bit. However, i did not get blood tests, and m-trn is considered mild conpared to an SD or even anavar.

Dr. D also stated the possibility of mini pct for extended cycles. One guy did a twelve week havoc cycle, with mini PCT session at week 5/6 and 9/10 before full blown at 13+.

here is a little snippet on the original post from D:

Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing.

[billm311]

D-termine, on Oct 16 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

Here's my plan, I workout Monday through Saturday, Wednesday being cardio and perhaps some ab work. I plan on taking it T/Th/Sa for Back day(Tues), Bi/Tri day(Thurs) and then my catch-up/weak area day on Saturday. I hit it hard already, being on a fairly large dose of TD Test, my workouts run quite long so the addition of some SD will be great. I'll take 20mg of Superdrol directly before my workout and 10mg directly after it. I have about 2 weeks worth at this dosing. It's not the ideal days for it, being that my leg days are spread out on Monday and Friday, but w/e, this should be fun.

since you already have test as a base, you should have good results with this. Maybe drop the third SD dose, if you want to extend it a bit. 2 weeks with it seems short, but can work. I like 3 weeks at least.

not have a "test base" of some sort is something that can cause a lot of peoples cycles to turn sour. If you dont have acess to test, I have heard of using phera as a sort of test base just for the androgen effects. Halodrol 50 originally had madol in it for this reason.


having the test booster helps act somewhat like a test base.

[jartimus256]

I dont get why he says to stay away from serms, and to use an AI to boost test instead.

[Odium]

...and make sure you use D-bol during PCT.

[D-termine]

Dbol for PCT check I might just run 30mg SD 2 days a week then. FYI, Pmax now gives me a flu almost immediately, I don't know if its cuz I've run it so many times or what, but I won't touch it ever again.

[billm311]

why no serm? good question. i dont want to pretend to know and give a bad answer. I am no expert with this, just read way too much about it.

i would guess it has something to do with the serm lingering too long and setting some imbalance or disrupting the supposed bounce back effect.

i will ask him.

[Ras]

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...&hl=pulsing

[billm311]

Ras, on Oct 16 2007, 07:01 PM, said:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...&hl=pulsing

good thread. like I said, I dont necessarily endorse it. I dont like the idea, and tend to agree more with the skeptics. like Chuck diesel said over there - "there is a lot of dick riding going on at AM". D is one of those sources.
iwanna see comparative blood tests, if there is such a thing.

[billm311]

okay the word i got back when I posed the question was:



No, it's not counter productive or anything. I suppose a low daily dose or 1-2x/wk normal dose would not be too bad, but after 2-3 months SERM does seem to lose a big part of it's effectiveness for me. AI doesn't, plus it puts no stress on the liver.





when I did thh trn, I actually used ralox intermitently.

[EasyEJL]

liorrh, on Oct 17 2007, 03:06 AM, said:

why the hell would you try something never resaerched based on broilligence instead of tried and true methdos that work????

So what orals have real research done on them for regular cycles? I must have missed those in pubmed

[skigazzi]

Putting aside the possibility that its a dumb idea to pulse, wouldn't if be more productive to take the doses of hormones on the day after lifting (especially if one lifts in the evening) to aid in growth and repair? Seem thats using it pre-WO is wasting part of its useful life which is intended to cause growth?

[Kimbo]

skigazzi, on Oct 17 2007, 11:40 AM, said:

Putting aside the possibility that its a dumb idea to pulse, wouldn't if be more productive to take the doses of hormones on the day after lifting (especially if one lifts in the evening) to aid in growth and repair? Seem thats using it pre-WO is wasting part of its useful life which is intended to cause growth?

I guess one could make the argument that if it's taken pre-workout that it will be in your system for both the workout and afterwards.

[Popa Murph]

The only thing I pulse is carbs!

[Redsky]

Kimbo, on Oct 17 2007, 10:17 AM, said:

I guess one could make the argument that if it's taken pre-workout that it will be in your system for both the workout and afterwards.

I seem to recall Loki indicated that one could use orals on refeed/cheat days to improve partitioning, followed by 1 to 2 days of PCT.

[Popa Murph]

Redsky, on Oct 18 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

I seem to recall Loki indicated that one could use orals on refeed/cheat days to improve partitioning, followed by 1 to 2 days of PCT.

This is an interesting theory to me, but I doubt that a pulse of Epi or even SD once a week would have much more of an effect than say a nice dose of K-R-ALA or something like anabolic pump (which just depressed the crap out of me and made me angry) With those you wouldn't need any pct.

[Kimbo]

I think that Ras makes a very good point - simply because the drug is no longer in your system doesn't mean that the effects from said drug have gone away.

[Redsky]

Popa Murph, on Oct 18 2007, 10:14 AM, said:

This is an interesting theory to me, but I doubt that a pulse of Epi or even SD once a week would have much more of an effect than say a nice dose of K-R-ALA or something like anabolic pump (which just depressed the crap out of me and made me angry) With those you wouldn't need any pct.

Have you used Anabolic Pump?

I hear mixed reviews of this, so I'm certainly curious. I also hear that it's nearly the same active ingrediant as PowerFULL and their old REM product.

[Popa Murph]

Redsky, on Oct 18 2007, 02:24 PM, said:

Have you used Anabolic Pump?

I hear mixed reviews of this, so I'm certainly curious. I also hear that it's nearly the same active ingrediant as PowerFULL and their old REM product.

I couldn't stay on it long enough to see any results. I get depressed and my aggression shoots through the roof. Which is really weird for me because I am the most laid back person I know easily. I tried it 4 different times each time the same results. I'd take AP have a pretty good workout then get in a huge fight with Fiancee (I'd blow up over the dumbest shit, IE she put dirty dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher and I got so mad I could barely think straight, luckily I just left and went for a drive. Don't worry I'm not violent in the least bit). The day after before I dosed again I would be very easily agitated (Never done AAS but I suspect if I did tren I would kill someone). First 2 times I ran it for about 4 days, the 3rd time it was a double dose pre-workout only once!, 4th time i sucked it up and made it 10days. I'd get some good pumps but the other sides just out weighed the benefits for me. It sucks because I have 3 more bottles of the stuff.

I did get good pumps though. That could be attributed to pre-workout cabs. I haven't before or since taken in pre-workout carbs in that amount. I have an experiment planned with AP and my current fasting schedule though. Maybe I'll have better results when i start that.

I'm scared to try p-slin...

[Travis]

Just figured I'd post my thoughts on pulsing. I also agree that the constant imbalance of hormones will lead to more sides....whether this can be proven is difficult. Nonetheless you also have to look at the appeal for something like this to new AAS/designers users....and that is the promise of no PCT. Also think about the potential sales of the products Dr. D claims will assist on OFF days (a lot of AXtreme products are recommended). Now the underlying $ issue is just pure speculation on my part.

And for the record I respect Dr. D's opinion on several issues....just dont happen to agree with him on this one. It would be like pinning test prop one week, stopping for 2 weeks then pinning again. It just doesnt make sense to me. I still think the best option is to dose everyday then run a proper PCT.

[Travis]

Popa Murph, on Oct 18 2007, 03:51 PM, said:

I couldn't stay on it long enough to see any results. I get depressed and my aggression shoots through the roof. Which is really weird for me because I am the most laid back person I know easily. I tried it 4 different times each time the same results. I'd take AP have a pretty good workout then get in a huge fight with Fiancee (I'd blow up over the dumbest shit, IE she put dirty dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher and I got so mad I could barely think straight, luckily I just left and went for a drive. Don't worry I'm not violent in the least bit). The day after before I dosed again I would be very easily agitated (Never done AAS but I suspect if I did tren I would kill someone). First 2 times I ran it for about 4 days, the 3rd time it was a double dose pre-workout only once!, 4th time i sucked it up and made it 10days. I'd get some good pumps but the other sides just out weighed the benefits for me. It sucks because I have 3 more bottles of the stuff.

I did get good pumps though. That could be attributed to pre-workout cabs. I haven't before or since taken in pre-workout carbs in that amount. I have an experiment planned with AP and my current fasting schedule though. Maybe I'll have better results when i start that.

I'm scared to try p-slin...

I'm not sure how it relates but Anabolic Pump is not a hormonal product. Anyways I think it is useful prior to large carb meals. Powerful put me to sleep (which is a good sign as far as GH release), but I would be very foggy and lethargic the following day of dosing.

[billm311]

Travis, on Oct 18 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

Just figured I'd post my thoughts on pulsing. I also agree that the constant imbalance of hormones will lead to more sides....whether this can be proven is difficult. Nonetheless you also have to look at the appeal for something like this to new AAS/designers users....and that is the promise of no PCT. Also think about the potential sales of the products Dr. D claims will assist on OFF days (a lot of AXtreme products are recommended). Now the underlying $ issue is just pure speculation on my part.

And for the record I respect Dr. D's opinion on several issues....just dont happen to agree with him on this one. It would be like pinning test prop one week, stopping for 2 weeks then pinning again. It just doesnt make sense to me. I still think the best option is to dose everyday then run a proper PCT.

yeah this is where I stand as well. It does appeal especially to those new to the game that dont know much about what it entails, and dont want to go the extra length to ensure everything is all good - the want to take the shortcut, which is often a reason they look at these products to begin with.



My word of advice to these guys - stick with NO Xplode

[SweetDaddyPatty]

skigazzi, on Oct 17 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

Putting aside the possibility that its a dumb idea to pulse, wouldn't if be more productive to take the doses of hormones on the day after lifting (especially if one lifts in the evening) to aid in growth and repair? Seem thats using it pre-WO is wasting part of its useful life which is intended to cause growth?

I had this idea too and when I posted it on AM people called me dirty names.



I have a bottle each of superdrol & epi on their way and I haven't decided whether I want to pulse or do a conventional cycle. I guess it depends on whether I can get over my fear of clomid & nolva sides or decide to cough up the money for torem.

[SweetDaddyPatty]

billm311, on Oct 18 2007, 07:13 PM, said:

yeah this is where I stand as well. It does appeal especially to those new to the game that dont know much about what it entails, and dont want to go the extra length to ensure everything is all good - the want to take the shortcut, which is often a reason they look at these products to begin with.
My word of advice to these guys - stick with NO Xplode

well, a couple of posts up Steve from UN says he liked the results he got from pulsing havoc for 2 weeks with no PCT.
I get the sense he knows his shit and is probably not using NO Xplode.

[Benson]

I think probably better than daily pulsing, doing short cycles, say two weeks, and then three to four off with PCT and then two more on, etc. would make more sense and would give you most of the gains with fewer downsides of a longer cycle. The toxicity issues of AAS, especially orals, are largely related to the amount of time one is exposed to them...over the course of six months or a year with something like this two on, three off plan, you'll ratchet right up to where you would have been with a more conventional cycle plan I suspect.