[GeorgeHavener]

I just want to know what the hell they have to do with each other as i see people throw out stuff like "maybe liver glycogen was depleted" and such all the time when talking about fatloss.

thanks

[rkieltyk]

i believe this is when runners hit a wall, as they're (literally) running off of FFA's. ffa's of course aren't preferred fuel source so its much more tiresome to run

[virtualcyber]

I just want to know what the hell they have to do with each other as i see people throw out stuff like "maybe liver glycogen was depleted" and such all the time when talking about fatloss.

thanks

Here is a simple version.

A human body stores fuel in two forms: glycogen or fat. The body draws from both energy sources, with emphasis on glycogen. As one runs out of glycogen, more energy is drawn from fat store.

[razg]

i believe this is when runners hit a wall, as they're (literally) running off of FFA's. ffa's of course aren't preferred fuel source so its much more tiresome to run

This is why I am of the view that exercise is best used for disposal of carbs (which are required to be ingested some time or another). Idling on FFAs so to speak does not make one feel so bad (especially given majority of this happens whilst asleep).

[virtualcyber]

This is why I am of the view that exercise is best used for disposal of carbs (which are required to be ingested some time or another). Idling on FFAs so to speak does not make one feel so bad (especially given majority of this happens whilst asleep).

To that I like to add:

(1) not only is exercise great for disposal of carbs, but stimulates muscles to burn more fat when it is at rest. (burning of carb + fat mixture shifts toward more fat burning).

(2) Prolonged hiking, slow jogging, etc., are awesome for burning fat. About 5 hours of that per day, 3 weeks, and you will be ripped. Too bad we all have jobs.

[razg]

To that I like to add:

(1) not only is exercise great for disposal of carbs, but stimulates muscles to burn more fat when it is at rest. (burning of carb + fat mixture shifts toward more fat burning).

(2) Prolonged hiking, slow jogging, etc., are awesome for burning fat. About 5 hours of that per day, 3 weeks, and you will be ripped. Too bad we all have jobs.

Agreed entirely. The literature shows that during prolonged bouts of low intensity cardio, the amount of energy being derived from FFAs rises and rises.

[Jakeshorts]

From what the understand(this is speculative) expanding on what is stated above...

Liver glycogen is used for immediate emergency energy. The mitocondria in your muscles are able to convert gylcogen stored there, but not instantaneously. Your liver is able to metabolize this glycogen into ATP much more quickly. So during HIIT or a short bought of HIIT it depletes liver glycogen as it's your "emergency reserve" of energy so to speak. It's after this is spent that your body starts to use your muscle/glycogen mix as instant energy to maintain that level of perfermance through fermentation which starts to create lactic acid after you start to use more oxygen than what is available (this point is called the lactic threshold. Most high end heart rate monitors will show you at what HR you can sustain for how long before you hit your threshhold allowing you an optimal heartrate for an optimal amount of time before you start buring muscle. Not necessary as you can guess pretty well, but if you want to spend some cash and make it exact - see the new Polar heart rate monitors).

Now since liver glycogen is used for emergencies obviously it's the first on your body's priority list to replace. So first thing your body does is metabolize either FFA for glycogen or uptakes the carbs you just ate for it. This is how HIIT works to your benefit. As you sit on your ass after 15-20 minutes of intense exercise - if you don't eat carbs to replace liver glycogen - it will replace it with your spare tire, stud. Not only does this increase your daily requirement of calories but it also partitions your body to metabolize stored FFAs.

[startingserious]

there's also the point of liver glycogen levels being linked to certain hormonal cascades that
a) make it easier to gain muscle
avoid 'starvation mode' or hypo-thyroid-esque symptoms when cutting...

[methodice]

How do we best "avoid 'starvation mode' or hypo-thyroid-esque symptoms when cutting" ?

[virtualcyber]

How do we best "avoid 'starvation mode' or hypo-thyroid-esque symptoms when cutting" ?

There is no such mode, from practical stand point.

When one is cutting fpr prolonged periods, one is mostly hungry, due to a caloric deficit.

One can minimize LBM loss, by ingesting protein and by lifting, but that is about it.

[startingserious]

i disagree, but have no studies/hard data to back it up..just anecdotal and personal experience. And i remember reading something along similar lines both here (perhaps it was spook in one of the old threads) and on bodyrecomp.

basically, in those with slowing metabolisms due to reduced caloric intake and serious weight loss (a la seriously dieted-down lean individuals), a little topped-off liver glycogen (e.g. from fruit) can help avert onset of hypo-thyroid-esque symptoms more so than protein/starch calories. this is generally more pronounced in women.

[methodice]

Oh yeh I remember the fructose thing by Spook. I think it was in one of his articles. Hmm wow, I better read that again. How do you startingserious, or others best integrate fruit in your diet routines?

[virtualcyber]

i disagree, but have no studies/hard data to back it up..just anecdotal and personal experience. And i remember reading something along similar lines both here (perhaps it was spook in one of the old threads) and on bodyrecomp.

So, what in the world do you base your "hypo-thyroidesque" symptoms statement on, if not based on real hard studies? Your personal opinion?

What ARE those "hypo-thyroidesque" symptoms you are talking about? Are you sure you are not confusing hypo-glycemia like conditions with hypo-thyroidesque symptoms?

I can tell you right now that according to a REAL controlled study, people's body really doesn't slow down that much in terms of metabolism when they cut calories or even when they lose body mass. I am talking about calories per lb of lbm, not total calories. Instead of slowing down the metabolism, the body will begin to catabolize itself.

[Jakeshorts]

the catabolization of the body is a direct result of a drop in leptin in most cases, IMO. A controlled refeed would then be in order. Which is why spook and Layne recommend refeeds more often the leaner you get. Leptin levels drop faster the leaner you get.

Methodice - I for one incorporate a piece of fruit before or during work outs depending on cutting or bulking. I've been getting into fruit lately during my bulk and actually have a piece before AND during. Bananas and apples are my favorites. From time to I have some melon, but it's harder to transport/eat in the gym.

I feel catabolism is best fought with controlling cals and carbs WRT your workouts. Then scheduling meals at appropriate intervals throughout the day depending on your class of metabolism.

[liorrh]

in short, just have you liver glycogen in half full mode all the time.

[startingserious]

So, what in the world do you base your "hypo-thyroidesque" symptoms statement on, if not based on real hard studies? Your personal opinion?

No need to be arsey, I'm not trying to get away with stating something as 100% fact. It was clear from my post that I was basing my comment on personal opinion and the shared opinions of others (incl. Spook, LyleMcD)

What ARE those "hypo-thyroidesque" symptoms you are talking about? Are you sure you are not confusing hypo-glycemia like conditions with hypo-thyroidesque symptoms?

reduced resting heart rate good enough for you? but that is in truly screwed up cases. others include: inability to sleep/Delayed-sleep-onset, fatigue, hair loss, loss of libido. of course these can be attributed to a multitude of factors, I'm just saying.

I can tell you right now that according to a REAL controlled study, people's body really doesn't slow down that much in terms of metabolism when they cut calories or even when they lose body mass. I am talking about calories per lb of lbm, not total calories. Instead of slowing down the metabolism, the body will begin to catabolize itself.

I can tell you that according to the experience of many an experienced personal trainer (of which I am not), and many struggling dieters, many individuals cut calories too drastically whilst ramping up exercise. they can pursue this regimen doggedly. after a point, their metabolism has to slow.

First post on this page: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/sh...uit&page=12

We could well be concerning ourselves with the minutae;
I believe it is t3 to t4 conversion that takes the hit in 'metabolic damage'
Liver glycogen can help...
But then glucogenisis fructose-glucose in the liver depletes ATP which can then affect thyroid...
I think bodyrecomp. has this somewhere

[Jakeshorts]

I can tell you that according to the experience of many an experienced personal trainer (of which I am not), and many struggling dieters, many individuals cut calories too drastically whilst ramping up exercise. they can pursue this regimen doggedly. after a point, their metabolism has to slow.

Ooo Oi!

[virtualcyber]

No need to be arsey, I'm not trying to get away with stating something as 100% fact. It was clear from my post that I was basing my comment on personal opinion and the shared opinions of others (incl. Spook, LyleMcD)

I have read their posts/writings. First of all, I don't remember reading anything they wrote implying what you have stated. So, we are in disagreement there. Secondly, if you are giving your personal opinion, then, you may as well give a reason why you think so and so.

reduced resting heart rate good enough for you? but that is in truly screwed up cases. others include: inability to sleep/Delayed-sleep-onset, fatigue, hair loss, loss of libido. of course these can be attributed to a multitude of factors, I'm just saying.

I am not convinced that these are IN GENERAL symptoms of hypo-thyroidesque conditions caused by exercise and dieting. Perhaps these are the symptoms of extended a starvation state (i.e., concentration camp style), hardly something many of us would worry about in our personal lives.

I can tell you that according to the experience of many an experienced personal trainer (of which I am not), and many struggling dieters, many individuals cut calories too drastically whilst ramping up exercise. they can pursue this regimen doggedly. after a point, their metabolism has to slow.

And who are these people?

Liver glycogen can help... But then glucogenisis fructose-glucose in the liver depletes ATP which can then affect thyroid...

It may, but it won't slow down that much overall burn-rate of the energy substrates.

[startingserious]

I have read their posts/writings. First of all, I don't remember reading anything they wrote implying what you have stated. So, we are in disagreement there. Secondly, if you are giving your personal opinion, then, you may as well give a reason why you think so and so.

OK, I really don't have time to do this, but I feel you are just arguing for the sake of winning the argument, irrespective of the facts. So I have gone and done the needful:

Spook says it here: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...ost&p=57958

injesting a small amount of fructose will lead to preferantial refilling of liver glycogen when consumed with starches. This is because of the special way in which fructose is metabolized. It skips PFK which is the rate limiting step in glucose metabolism in some instances. it can then trick your liver in to thinking you have lots of glucose so it will cause the starches to be shuttled to liver glycogen. This is the same reason to much fructose is bad when hypercaloric. In that case the last thing you want to do is trick your liver in to thiinking you have lots of glucose because then it just over activates the lipogenic enzymes. But a little fructose while dieting is beneficial for lean people because of this trickery.

LyleMcD says it or agrees with it in the thread i posted above http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/sh...uit&page=12

I am not convinced that these are IN GENERAL symptoms of hypo-thyroidesque conditions caused by exercise and dieting. Perhaps these are the symptoms of extended a starvation state (i.e., concentration camp style), hardly something many of us would worry about in our personal lives....

And who are these people?

You can't seem to get your head around the fact that metabolic damage happens, very often in fact. Why do you think we "carb-up"? And what happens if we don't carb-up? Now, what happens if we persist in eating 500 cals under maintenance whilst lifting and running? LyleMcD, Ironaddict, Paul Chek all recognize this.

Lyle: see thread above

Chek: http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13401

IA: http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12721 [note, the poster is "hypothyroid-ish" because he has restricted calories/carbs for too long]

It may, but it won't slow down that much overall burn-rate of the energy substrates.

Please read my post again. Didn't I say we were fussing over minutaie? So aren't you agreeing with me here, 'it won't slow down that much..'?

It's obvious mate, what are you disagreeing with? We're not 5 years old, this isn't the playground and you don't always have to have the last word.

I really don't have time to respond to posts like this.

[methodice]

Thanks for the discussion and your time to state and back up your opinions.

[virtualcyber]

OK, I really don't have time to do this, but I feel you are just arguing for the sake of winning the argument, irrespective of the facts.

If you don't have time to post, then don't.

I am addressing your comments regarding "hypo-thyroidesque" conditions. not to merely argue.

Spook says it here: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...ost&p=57958
LyleMcD says it or agrees with it in the thread i posted above http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/sh...uit&page=12

Spook's post has nothing to do with hypo-thyroidesque symptoms. And the link to Lyle's board doesn't work.

You can't seem to get your head around the fact that metabolic damage happens, very often in fact. Why do you think we "carb-up"?

Carb up is not because we get into a metabolic syndrome. This has to do with replenishing muscle glycogen, and an attempt to bring up leptin levels.

And what happens if we don't carb-up? Now, what happens if we persist in eating 500 cals under maintenance whilst lifting and running? LyleMcD, Ironaddict, Paul Chek all recognize this.

Again, your links above show nothing related to metabolic syndrome or hypo-thyroidesque conditions.

Lyle: see thread above

Again, that link doesn't work.

Chek: http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13401

I checked out those post.

That post has nothing to do with metabolic syndrome or hypo-thyroidesque conditions.

How can I take you seriously when you post link like the one above, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand?

Please read my post again. Didn't I say we were fussing over minutaie? So aren't you agreeing with me here, 'it won't slow down that much..'?

You are saying one should avoid hypo-thyroidesque conditions.

I am saying this is not a worry in most dieting conditions.

It's obvious mate, what are you disagreeing with? We're not 5 years old, this isn't the playground and you don't always have to have the last word.

A good attempt at dodging the issue. The whole issue has been about whether one needs to worry about hypo-thyroidesque conditions. If you can support your claims with real life evidence or an explanation, go ahead.

Otherwise, stop responding with personal attacks.

[startingserious]

perhaps you believe i have some vested interest in spreading the false notion that metabolic damage occurs.
i have no such interest.

further let me clarify that the rather clumsy term 'hypothyroid-esque symptoms' was used to crudely describe metabolic damage, when, due to reduced caloric intake and/or increased caloric expenditure, one's metabolism gets screwed. body temperature falls, heart rate can fall (in more severe cases), libido down, hair loss, reduced imunity, thyroid function falls, leptin/leptin sensitivity falls, avg baseline cortisol increases etc.

you stated these are only for concentration camp victims to worry about. you are wrong. i have suffered all the above (blood work and all), a female friend has also. i thus looked into it.

what i am saying is quite simple: if you don't eat enough, for a long enough time, your metabolism gets fucked. for some people this can happen rapidly, e.g. 40+ women. others it may take a very long time. you seriously disagree with this?

Spook's post has nothing to do with hypo-thyroidesque symptoms.

It serves to support my original statement that fruit/liver glyc. can help lean individuals whilst cutting. it does so by 'tricking' the body that carbs are in plentiful supply. thus STRESS TO THE METABOLISM IS REDUCED. thus metabolic damage is avoided. this is implicit in his argument. if liver glyc. was not topped off, lean individuals find it harder to cut - why? metabolic stress, reduced metabolism! it has everything to do with our discussion.

And the link to Lyle's board doesn't work.

i am genuinely sorry.
here is correct link with excerpt

)riginally Posted by Blade, supported by Lyle in this thred
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/sh...oid&page=12

As already noted, not only is women's fat harder to get rid of since creating e.g. a 1000kcal deficit requires less calories and more activity than in men (since they're lighter), but they also seem to overcompensate negatively when subjected to a caloric deficit. Leptin could be dropping lower and/or the effect of a given leptin drop is significantly higher than in men.

A couple of clients tried Cabergoline at 0.25mg 2x/week with great success, which indicates this as well.

I also have a theory that a lot of women exercising regularly and dieting have some sort of subclinical hypothyroidism. I've seen blood panels of a lot of my female clients which seems to indicate this, and even low dosages of T3 (12.5mcg) makes things move a long faster and improves several markers (mood, less water retention, libido).

There's also the issue of glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. Most women seem to get better results on low carb diets, and respond less favorably to carbloads - which is why I tend to favor twice weekly carbloads at about 3-4g/kg BW in already lean females, and even up to 3x/week carbloads varying amounts between 2-5g (low, moderate, high or low, low, high or whatever, depends on training schedule). BUT - I've noticed that dropping carbs too low tends to make them stagnate faster and more frequently, especially given the increased amount of cardio some of them do (and most likely need) to get lean. It started with a girl who had problems sticking to the diet and would hit a wall due to lethargy and burnout bi-weekly, even though I told here to not go too hard on the cardio/intervals and diet. She was really fond of raspberries and would eat a few now and then when she felt really low - admitting this to me only afterwards since she thought she was "cheating". After only a few days her lethargy was reduced, she had more energy for her studying and training, and fat loss started moving again.

Another girl who've also been working diligently for many months and being stalled out for some time now, was going through a hard period of studying and finals. Even on frequent carbups and diet breaks every 6 weeks, fat loss was slow and the mental fuzziness and lethargy (especially during morning cardio sessions) would affect her school work so I told her to increase carbs by eating more fruit - basically to the point where the deficit was really small. This was only for a few weeks to get through finals. I would also tell her to eat small pieces of fruit for her morning cardio, thinking that having mental and physical energy to do it was far more important than any loss of fat oxidation rates she might be experiencing.

I saw her yesterday after 2-3 weeks of doing this, and was simply freaked out by the change... She had a full sixpack and minimal ab skinfolds (3-4mm, basically eyelid thickness) only blurred by some water retention, vastly improved definition in her thighs and overall her mood and energy was totally different.

We know that fructose will improve T4>T3 conversion, but she was getting T3 as thyroid medication already, so that alone couldn't explain the improvement. It could be that her deficit was too high, screwing with her metabolism, as already talked about. She also eased off a little on training, which probably helped. She recently switched to a different contraceptive with lower hormone levels - most likely also having an impact.

To summarize, T3 supplementation seems to work wonders in many female clients. Low carb diets work, but beware of going too low - especially in the face of high activity levels. Carbloads work, but in lower amounts and spread out more evenly compared to men - for overweight women, a few cheat meals every week or less. Fruit seems to improve results compared to other carb sources, the reason could be multifactorial (adherence and physiological). Carb cravings can be an issue, but more healthy fats combined with the fruit seems to overcome this nicely.

direct quote from lyle

the largest metabolic rtae drop I've ever seen reported was in the minnesota study. 6 month study in the 50's, half a dozen war objectors subjected to 50% maintenance for 6 months. hit 5% bodyfat and metabolic rate supression was like 30-40%

Carb up is not because we get into a metabolic syndrome. This has to do with replenishing muscle glycogen, and an attempt to bring up leptin levels.

It has everything to do with metabolic damage (metabolic syndrome is something completely different). Muscle glycogen is one issue, but what happens if it doesn't bring up leptin levels? Thyroid function takes a hit.

That post has nothing to do with metabolic syndrome or hypo-thyroidesque conditions.

How can I take you seriously when you post link like the one above, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand?

It is relevant. Not directly, I admit. I shall help clarify:
Point of article is reptillian stress caused by threat to
a) Safety
Sustenance
c) Procreation
which causes SNS hyper-stimulation. we are concerned with . i am saying stress from sustenance unavailability causes adverse metabolic changes that affect body comp goals; the author, Chek appears to support this, though it is not explicit. If I am reaching here then please at least acknowledge the validity of the point I am trying to make:

Chek: To see proof of my point, one need only visit a public membership gym; there is no shortage of people who faithfully jog, run, pedal, pump, push and pull several hours a week, yet their body shapes change little, if at all! They get frustrated and their trainers get frustrated.
http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13401

You are saying one should avoid hypo-thyroidesque conditions.

I am saying this is not a worry in most dieting conditions.

You are simply wrong. Most is also very misleading. perhaps your circle of experience is limited to 20 something male athletes? or genetically gifted physique athletes who at most cut for 3 months continuous and have the knowledge to carb up/refeed every so often? try training 40+ women who've been lowcarbing for years..

[startingserious]

some studies to help the case:

Metabolic effects of repeated weight loss and regain in adolescent wrestlers
S. N. Steen, R. A. Oppliger and K. D. Brownell
Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia 19104.

This study examined resting metabolic rate in adolescent wrestlers to test the hypothesis that repeated cycles of weight loss and regain would be associated with reduced energy requirements. Energy restriction lowers resting metabolic rate in normal-weight and obese persons. Repeated cycles of weight loss and regain can increase food efficiency, defined as the degree of weight change per unit of food intake, in animals. Many wrestlers lose weight repeatedly as they "cut weight" for matches. This cycle of weight loss and regain may affect their resting metabolism. Twenty-seven wrestlers were classified as cyclers or non-cyclers based on their weight loss history. Resting metabolic rate was measured using indirect calorimetry and body composition was evaluated using six skinfolds. Cyclers and noncyclers did not differ in age, weight, height, surface area, lean body mass, or percent body fat. Cyclers had a significantly lower mean resting metabolic rate than noncyclers (154.6 vs 177.2 kJ/m2/h) (4.6 vs 5.5 kJ per kilogram of lean body mass per hour). There was a 14% difference between the cyclers and the noncyclers in resting energy expenditure (6631.8 vs 7702.8 kJ/d). Weight cycling in wrestlers appears to be associated with a lowered resting metabolic rate.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...e2=tf_ipsecsha

Basal Metabolic Rate in Anorexia Nervosa Patients: Using Appropriate Predictive Equations during the Refeeding Process

Authors: Forman-Hoffman, Valerie1; Ruffin, Timothy2; Schultz, Susan1

Source: Annals of Clinical Psychiatry (after Jan 1, 2004), Volume 18, Number 2, April-June 2006 , pp. 123-127(5)
Abstract:
Background. The refeeding process is a particularly dangerous time for some anorexia nervosa (AN) patients. Great physiologicatress can occur from imposing a large caloric intake on a body dealing with the effects of long-term starvation. Accurate predictive equations of basal metabolic rate (BMR) are needed to ensure AN patients gain weight at a safe rate. Methods. Patients with AN undergoing strictly controlled nutritional rehabilitation on an inpatient unit were examined for changes in BMR via indirect calorimetry. Seven female patients were assessed shortly after inpatient admission. Follow-up measures of weight and BMR were obtained after three weeks of refeeding treatment comprised of approximately 3500 kcal/day. Results. Body mass index (BMI) increased in all subjects from a median 13.7 kg/m2 at baseline to 15.2 kg/m2. BMR also increased from a median of 1000 kcal/day to 1220 kcal/day. The Owens and Mifflin equations were moderately accurate (within 10%) of predicted BMR at baseline and 3-week follow-up, and the Harris-Benedict equation was very accurate (within 2%) at 3-week follow-up only. Conclusions. These results may guide nutritional therapies for AN by demonstrating the suppression of metabolism induced by calorie restriction as well as its relatively prompt rebound to expected values with weight gain. Derivation of accurate predictive equations for use during the early refeeding period is needed.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Dec;80(6):1469-77.Click here to read Links
Factors associated with the increase in resting energy expenditure during refeeding in malnourished anorexia nervosa patients.
Van Wymelbeke V, Brondel L, Marcel Brun J, Rigaud D.

Centre Européen des Sciences du Goût, Medical Research Unit-National Center of Scientific Research 5170, Dijon, France.

BACKGROUND: In malnourished anorexia nervosa (AN) patients, body-weight gain during refeeding is slowed by an increase in resting energy expenditure (REE). OBJECTIVE: The objective of the study was to identify factors associated with the increase in REE during refeeding. DESIGN: Before and 8, 30, and 45 d after the beginning of refeeding, REE was studied by indirect calorimetry in 87 female AN patients [x +/- SD age: 23.4 +/- 7.9 y; body mass index (in kg/m2) 13.2 +/- 1.3]. Energy intake, body composition (by bioelectrical impedance analysis), physical activity, smoking behavior, abdominal pain, anxiety, depressive mood, serum thyrotropin and thyroid hormone, and urinary catecholamines were measured. REE was also evaluated in 18 patients after 1 y of recovery. RESULTS: By day 8, REE increased from 3.84 +/- 0.6 to 4.36 +/- 0.59 MJ/d (P < 0.01). This increase (13.4%) was significantly (P <0.01) greater than that expected on the basis of the increase in fat-free mass (FFM; 1.6%). Thereafter, the ratio of REE to FFM remained high and, in multivariate analysis, was significantly related to 4 factors: energy intake (P <0.01), anxiety (P <0.01), abdominal pain (P <0.05), and depressive mood (P <0.05). The ratio also increased significantly with physical activity (P <0.01) and cigarette smoking (P <0.02). This rise in REE leveled off after recovery from AN. CONCLUSION: In AN patients, the rise in REE observed during refeeding was independently linked to anxiety level, abdominal pain, physical activity, and cigarette smoking, and it contributed to resistance to weight gain.

some threads from lyle's:
reversing metabolic damage
resources on metabolic damage

some threads from IA:

[startingserious]

Direct quotes from IA, support Metabolic Damage/thyroid hit:

(emphasis is mine)

97.5 morning temp is considered normal and perfect when dieting. If you are very restrictive with kcals, or get too carried away with the cardio, it will plummet. When it hits 96.5, basal metabolism is lower by 15-20%!!

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6684

Tell them you want your thyroid checked, simple as that. Tell them you have been trying to lose weight to help with PT and its not coming off and your morning body temp is low. They will run standard tests.

NOW, what the real deal is that you have been under maintenence too long and thats why it's low. You don't need a doctor in all reality. What you need is enough over maintenence calories for long enough for thyroid to come back up....

.....
It will stay stuck until you feed yourself. You may gain a few pounds, you may not. Sometimes as people put more food in, metabolism goes up at a rate that keeps weight gain minimal or non-existant. I have actually have had trainees start LOSING weight when their cals went up. But that is not the norm. Expect a bit of fat gain and if you do it correctly it will be very minimal. I get most of the people that come to me with slow metabolisms back up to temp with very little fat gain. Most people get totally stuck when they are where you are. Their metabolism is screwed so they can't lose weight at any fair pace, and they won't eat for fear of getting fat so they continue their viscious circle. If you can't get past the fact that sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward my condolences--you will remain stuck unless you go the drug route.
.....
Thyroid meds are the last thing a dieting lifter needs, they just need to buckle down and eat for awhile. A LOT of the people that get in this sport end up obsessive compulsive, and just will not eat right for fear or getting fat, or fear of not getting fat enough--lol.
.....
I CONSTANTLY get new trainees that have low morning body temp from poor dieting/eating habits. All you need to do is eat above maintenance for 4-12 weeks and it fixes itself. I have only had one client that didn't reach normal values after a period of eating over maintenance.

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12721

His general guidelines:

97.4-98.3 normal metabolic rate.
96.5-97.1 metabolism reduced as much as 15-20%
95.5-96-5, you be fucked, thyroid pummeled into submission.
94.5-95-5. Your metabolism is shot, extremely lowered basal metabolism.

some of the links get screwed up cause they're too long..

[methodice]

Thanks starting serious again. In the end we will get to the bottom of it. I think my body shuts down too easily, or I reduce cals, I just don't get it burn my fat burning abilities are wack!

[virtualcyber]

perhaps you believe i have some vested interest in spreading the false notion that metabolic damage occurs.
i have no such interest.

Can we stick to the topic?

further let me clarify that the rather clumsy term 'hypothyroid-esque symptoms' was used to crudely describe metabolic damage, when, due to reduced caloric intake and/or increased caloric expenditure, one's metabolism gets screwed. body temperature falls, heart rate can fall (in more severe cases), libido down, hair loss, reduced imunity, thyroid function falls, leptin/leptin sensitivity falls, avg baseline cortisol increases etc.

This is largely incorrect, in the sense that (1) you are exaggerating the symptoms and (2) a number of those symptoms are not associated with reduced metabolism (e.g., hair loss).

you stated these are only for concentration camp victims to worry about. you are wrong. i have suffered all the above (blood work and all), a female friend has also. i thus looked into it.

Two things with your argument, here. First problem is that there is no objective documentation of what you metabolic slowdown occurred. There is no official record of your heart rate, leptin drop, body temperature changes, changes in body mass, changes in bf%, changes in cortisol, etc. Secondly, even if these were objectively documented by someone (e.g., a lab technician) fact that you "suffered" from these only means N=1.

what i am saying is quite simple: if you don't eat enough, for a long enough time, your metabolism gets fucked. for some people this can happen rapidly, e.g. 40+ women. others it may take a very long time. you seriously disagree with this?

What is "long enough"? What is "metabolism" getting fucked? Per lb, how many fewer calories per day? From what I understand, it is VERY difficult to get a evem slowdown in metabolism of 30%.

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[virtualcyber]

It serves to support my original statement that fruit/liver glyc. can help lean individuals whilst cutting. it does so by 'tricking' the body that carbs are in plentiful supply. thus STRESS TO THE METABOLISM IS REDUCED. thus metabolic damage is avoided. this is implicit in his argument. if liver glyc. was not topped off, lean individuals find it harder to cut - why? metabolic stress, reduced metabolism! it has everything to do with our discussion.

You cannot trick your body that way. The point about Spook's post is about liver metabolism of fructose -- there is no evidence that any "tricking" occurs. The reason is that the body keeps track of OVERALL energy state of the body. Perhaps you are talking about psychological effect of eating.

BTW, a piece of fruit doesn't contain that much fructose.

It has everything to do with metabolic damage (metabolic syndrome is something completely different). Muscle glycogen is one issue, but what happens if it doesn't bring up leptin levels? Thyroid function takes a hit.

Again, unrelated to the issue at hand.

It is relevant. Not directly, I admit. I shall help clarify:
Point of article is reptillian stress caused by threat to
a) Safety
Sustenance
c) Procreation

"Reptilian stress" what is this? Is this science?

which causes SNS hyper-stimulation.

What is SNS hyperstimulation?

You are making up stuff.

we are concerned with . i am saying stress from sustenance unavailability causes adverse metabolic changes that affect body comp goals; the author, Chek appears to support this, though it is not explicit. If I am reaching here then please at least acknowledge the validity of the point I am trying to make:

Again, I repeat, "ADVERSE" metabolic changes are difficult to attain.

The fact is that most dieters over-consume because (1) they cannot stand the hunger pangs (2) they are psychosomatic and (3) they underestimate the caloric values of food.

You are simply wrong.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

Most is also very misleading. perhaps your circle of experience is limited to 20 something male athletes? or genetically gifted physique athletes who at most cut for 3 months continuous and have the knowledge to carb up/refeed every so often? try training 40+ women who've been lowcarbing for years..

More unsubstantiated claim.

-------------------------------------------------

I will briefly note that you need to read the abstracts you cited carefully.

NONE of them support your case about metabolic syndrome.


IA's comments can be construed to support your case, though his comments are mostly wrong, and mostly based on his personal views, without any support in real data.

[onelife]

Just mentioning a bit more on the original topic.. A great example of depleting glycogen and making your body resort to using stored fat, from what I have found to be in most cases, is to deplete your glycogen through a hard intense weight training session (hopefully depleting glycogen) and then doing some form of cardio afterwards ( hoping to tap into your fat storage)

[coach hale]

Liver glycogen regulates malonyl-CoA. Malonyl-CoA is an intermediate in fat synthesis it is elevated when liver glycogen is full. It inhibits the enzymatic action of CPT-1 (transports ffa to be oxidized in mitochondria) both in liver and other tissues. When Malonyl-CoA is lowered CPT-1 becomes active increasing FFA oxidation.

additional info concerning liver glycogen from The Carbohydrate Files by Jamie Hale (2007)

" Carb load and muscular growth
The carb-up could potentially affect muscle growth in two ways—by decreasing protein breakdown or by increasing protein synthesis.

The status of the liver is one of the key regulatory processes in determining the anabolic or catabolic state of the body. When liver glycogen is full, it’s thought to be in an anabolic state called the fed state. When liver glycogen becomes depleted, it’s thought to be in an catabolic state called the fasted state. Therefore, the first step in maximizing any anabolic process is to reverse liver metabolism from catabolic to anabolic. This requires that the enzyme levels for glucose utilization are returned to normal and that the liver glycogen is refilled. It has been estimated that it takes five hours for liver enzymes to return to normal once refeeding begins. This is why some authorities suggest that a carb meal be consumed five hours before the final glycogen depletion workout. Personally, I haven’t seen any difference in performance or appearance when starting the carb load five hours prior to the workout or immediately after (as I do with most of my clients) the workout. Refilling the liver glycogen will shut down ketone body formation and shift the liver back toward anabolism. Glucose by itself has been shown to refill liver glycogen poorly. A combination of glucose and fructose has been shown to be more effective in replenishing liver glycogen.

Insulin and amino acids have profound effects on protein synthesis. Insulin appears to primarily act by decreasing protein breakdown while excess amino acids directly stimulate protein synthesis. Therefore, it might be assumed that an increase in both insulin and amino acid levels would increase muscle gains. Hyperinsulinemia increases the transport of some amino acids into the muscle.

Increased cellular hydration could be anabolic because it may affect numerous processes including protein breakdown and synthesis. For example, protein losses that accompany illness and injury are commonly accompanied by cellular dehydration, and increasing hydration helps to prevent protein losses. As glycogen depletion causes a loss of water within the muscle, the increased hydration seen with glycogen compensation might affect protein synthesis similarly.

* Note increased glycogen has been shown to increase specific anabolic signaling pathways. Cellular dehydration has been shown to up-regulate lyosome activity which generally results in elevated protein breakdown.

The following is an excerpt from Knowledge and Nonsense: the science of nutrition and exercise

" “Jamie Hale: From the data that I have seen, one of the key reasons glycogen status influences ampk (catabolic pathway) is because of the hydration with glycogen status. Is this correct?

Henning Kramer: As you probably know, Ampk is a heterotrimeric enzyme containing alpha, beta, and gamma subunits. While the alpha subunit confers ampk catalytic activity, the beta and gamma subunits are regulatory in nature. Specifically, the gamma subunit (of which there are three isoforms, with the y3 isoform expressed exclusively in muscle) contains a glycogen binding domain. It is thought that ampk can “sense” glycogen concentrations in skeletal muscle via this glycogen binding domain located within the gamma subunit. With respect to water, glycogen is a hydrophilic macromolecule and will tend to be stored in the presence of water. Ampk activity is increased by compounds inducing hyperosmotic shock to cells, which is reflected in altered ion gradients. However, the mechanism for this activation is still unclear.”

thanks
coach hale
www.maxcondition.com

[startingserious]

This is largely incorrect, in the sense that (1) you are exaggerating the symptoms and (2) a number of those symptoms are not associated with reduced metabolism (e.g., hair loss).

ughh. Do you need a notorized affidvit from the Supreme Court stating my heart rate/t4/test fell? What is wrong with you? Why would I make this up? T4 went down 15%, test 20%, resting heart rate from 63 to 45. Similar but more pronounced in a female friend. N=2, but wait till I get to IA and Lyle's...

What is "long enough"? What is "metabolism" getting fucked? Per lb, how many fewer calories per day? From what I understand, it is VERY difficult to get a evem slowdown in metabolism of 30%.

My question: what is wrong with you? Isn't it patent from my post: for some people this can happen rapidly, e.g. 40+ women. others it may take a very long time.
It all depends on the inidividual, leptin sensitivity, sensitivity to stress. Just like not everyone maintains at 15 cals per lb.

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