vinager, anyone else reading about this? Options

[Spook]

About 2 years ago I looked in to the science behind this. It seems to be a pretty good sup, expecially for disease prevention and to aid digestion, absorption, and in fighting chrons disease. Has anyone else look in to this at all? I looked in to it based on the recomendation of my mother in law (a PHD and MD). She was trained in china and thus places alot of importance on preventative measures. She recomneded two table spoons per day of vinager per day.

The science behind it is that it mainly aids the liver in detoxification. It also helps aid digestion by removing lipid deposits from the intestine.

[davin8r]

The science behind it is that it mainly aids the liver in detoxification. It also helps aid digestion by removing lipid deposits from the intestine.

Any research that you know of to support such possibilities?

[=w=]

I am pretty sure Nandi has also posted some info over at CEM about it acting as a glucose disposal agent as well.

[duque21]

CEM...new a new forum I have not heard about yet...YES YES?????
I need to know!!!!!!!!!!

[Tkarrde]

CEM...new a new forum I have not heard about yet...YES YES?????
I need to know!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com

[Jon Stark]

I usually avoid the Advanced forum, but I thought I'd post something here that's relevant. I'm not sure how significant it is, but seemed interesting to me.

(Posted this elsewhere once, didn't get much attention.)

Int J Sports Med 2002 Apr;23(3):218-22 Related Articles, Links

The efficacy of acetic acid for glycogen repletion in rat skeletal muscle after exercise.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Co. Ltd., Handa, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp

We examined the effect of acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion by using swimming-exercised rats. Rats were trained for 7 days by swimming. After an overnight fast, they were subjected to a 2-hr swimming exercise. Immediately afterward, they were given by gavage 2 ml of one of the following solutions: 30 % glucose only or 30 % glucose with 0.4 % acetic acid. Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding. Exercise significantly decreased soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content, and feeding significantly increased liver, soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content. In soleus muscle, acetate feeding significantly increased glycogen content and the ratio of glycogen synthase in the I form (means +/- SEM: 4.04 +/- 0.41 mg/g-tissue and 47.0 +/- 0.7 %, respectively) in contrast to no acetate feeding (3.04 +/- 0.29 mg/g-tissue and 38.1 +/- 3.4 %, respectively). Thus, these findings suggest that the feeding of glucose with acetic acid can more speedily accelerate glycogen repletion in skeletal muscle than can glucose only.

PMID: 11914987 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


OK, so I don't really know what's going on here. Maybe acetic acid (vinegar) is a useful nutrient partitioning agent? Or maybe all the sugar would have reached the muscle anyway, the acetic acid just accelerated the process? I have no clue.

[Supnut]

Perhaps this will point the dirrection...

Acetic acid feeding enhances glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle of rats.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Company Limited, Handa 475-8585, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp

To investigate the efficacy of the ingestion of vinegar in aiding recovery from fatigue, we examined the effect of dietary acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion in rats. Rats were allowed access to a commercial diet twice daily for 6 d. After 15 h of food deprivation, they were either killed immediately or given 2 g of a diet containing 0 (control), 0.1, 0.2 or 0.4 g acetic acid/100 g diet for 2 h. The 0.2 g acetic acid group had significantly greater liver and gastrocnemius muscle glycogen concentration than the control group (P < 0.05). The concentrations of citrate in this group in both the liver and skeletal muscles were >1.3-fold greater than in the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, the concentration of xylulose-5-phosphate in the control group was significantly higher than in the 0.2 and 0.4 g acetic acid groups (P < 0.01). In gastrocnemius muscle, the concentration of glucose-6-phosphate in the control group was significantly lower and the ratio of fructose-1,6-bisphosphate/fructose-6-phosphate was significantly higher than in the 0.2 g acetic acid group (P < 0.05). This ratio in the soleus muscle of the acetic acid fed groups was <0.8-fold that of the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, acetic acid may activate gluconeogenesis and inactivate glycolysis through inactivation of fructose-2,6-bisphosphate synthesis due to suppression of xylulose-5-phosphate accumulation. In skeletal muscle, acetic acid may inhibit glycolysis by suppression of phosphofructokinase-1 activity. We conclude that a diet containing acetic acid may enhance glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle.

PMID: 11435516

Effect of acetate on glycogen replenishment in liver and skeletal muscles after exhaustive swimming in rats.

Nakao C, Yamada E, Fukaya M, Tayama K, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Department of Sports Medicine, Graduate School of Medicine, Nagoya University, Japan.

Immediately after exhaustive swimming, rats were given one of the following orally: distilled water (W), glucose (G); acetic acid (A); citric acid ©; glucose and acetic acid (GA); and glucose and citric acid (GC), and they were killed 2 h after ingestion (each trial: n=4). Exhaustive exercise resulted in a significant reduction of the glycogen store in the gastrocnemius muscle. The glycogen stores in the liver were significantly higher following ingestion in groups GA and GC, in the gastrocnemius in groups G, GA and GC, and in the soleus in group GC, than immediately post exercise. These results suggest that oral acetic acid with glucose can facilitate liver glycogen restoration during the early period of recovery, and that acetate has about the same physiological effects as citrate on glycogen replenishment.

PMID: 11169233

[LCSULLA]

My girlfriend's mother has a friend who swears by the stuff for fat loss. She works out three days aweek and eats anything she wants and has vains poping out on her arms. Supposedly she was always in good shape but never this cut. And the only thing diffrent is the vinager.

[Tkarrde]

My girlfriend's mother has a friend who swears by the stuff for fat loss. She works out three days aweek and eats anything she wants and has vains poping out on her arms. Supposedly she was always in good shape but never this cut. And the only thing diffrent is the vinager.

How much? And what type of vinegar?

[virtualcyber]

I don't know if you guys noticed something similar ... I always liked "tangy" stuff after exercising (One of the reasons I like apple and oranges). I think the body likes something with acetic acid in it. Sometimes, I'd drink concentrated lemon juice ...

Yeah, LCSULLA, how much? What type of vinegar?

[Tkarrde]

Sometimes, I'd drink concentrated lemon juice ...

You're a strange bird, VC . Actually, I cannot call you strange, since I used to often eat a can of tuna soaked in balsamic vinegar after a workout (with carbs as well). Interesting...

[LCSULLA]

I'll find out today.

[JD]

Years ago there was a report on an old folk remedy for losing wt. I remember that you took a glass of cidar vinegar and added I believe 2 things to it one of which I believe was a teaspoon of honey. I can't remember what the other ingredient was but you would mix it up and drink it.

[Tkarrde]

Years ago there was a report on an old folk remedy for losing wt.  I remember that you took a glass of cidar vinegar and added I believe 2 things to it one of which I believe was a teaspoon of honey.  I can't remember what the other ingredient was but you would mix it up and drink it.

Ah yes, the "Apple Cider Vinegar Diet" or some such thing.

[Jon Stark]

There are apple cidar vinegar tablets. Some are standardized for acetic acid. All are cheap as dirt. I occasionally take them post-workout. (Hate taste of vinegar.)

I just don't know what to make of those studies. Nor do I know if vinegar is something you take continously, or something that's only beneficial if you take it around the time of your workout.

[Supnut]

Damn people I posted the study.

Vinager appears to supress phosphofructokinase-1 in muscle which would slow down its conversion to energy allowing one to stop expending carbs and start filing them back up again.

The old book Back to Basics (a book bascially on living off the land in a farm type style) contains the recipe of 8 oz. water 1 tbl each of honey and vinager. This was listed as an energy drink, now if vinigar supresses conversion of glycogen to energy then this wouldn't make much sense, I did try it a few times and while it was hard to get down it did apear to give a boost, but remember I was perhaps 13 when experimenting with this, so chances of placebo effect were high.

[virtualcyber]

Since the body still needs the energy, when the glycogen stops burning due to the effects of the vinegar, the body has to tap into fat store. This seems like a plausible theory ... provided that vinegar does help prevent further glycogen burn and help its replenishment.

[Supnut]

I came across a very technical paper off of google on it, there are like 5 pathways although phosphofructokinase-1 looked like a major one, and also we don't know the extent to which suppression is accuring.

My thoughts for fat loss... I haven't seen any proof that it does so, for recovery, specifically for switching post workout catabolism into anabolism it sounds like it may have some use.

[=w=]

I came across a very technical paper off of google on it, there are like 5 pathways although phosphofructokinase-1  looked like a major one, and also we don't know the extent to which suppression is accuring.

My thoughts for fat loss... I haven't seen any proof that it does so, for recovery, specifically for switching post workout catabolism into anabolism it sounds like it may have some use.

What type of dosages are we looking at here? I know you mention 1tbls in another thread but is this going to be something that is body weight dependent? Meal composition dependent? I realise this may be only speculation at this point but I'll guinnie pig it if anyone has some signifigant recomendations. Also, need it be apple cider? Or would standard red wine do?

[virtualcyber]

Experimenting with apple vinegar cider is cheap, too. I was going to try liver tabs next, but I think I will do vinegar experiment first.

[Supnut]

Fat loss is likely minimal, or else everyone would be doing it since its so cheap, as for using it as a post workout 'switch' I haven't got a clue how you could messure that.

Well I suppose you could get a blood glucose tester and try it that way but I think the effects are likely to only work post workout.

[virtualcyber]

I am more inclined to suspect that taking acetic acid with any carb meal would be good.

Don't flame me for this ... cuz I am going to really get unscientific. I only have anecdotal evidence or hunches with respect to acetic acid. My personal observations are:

(1) generally tangy fruit makes me gain weight -- something is making me retain water in body, right? I think this could be due to increased glycogen in muscle, due to acetic acid.

(2) many "old" folks comment that their taste for "tangy" food declines with age. This might be an indication of their decrease in metabolic rate due to loss of muscle that can take in glycogen supply.

(3) My desire to eat/drink tangy substance is most intense after an exercise.

(4) You heard of pickle juice as a prevention for muscle cramps? The acidic nature of the juice might be helping one store additional glycogen and water.


===================================

In any case, if acetic acid does put a stop to glycolysis, then, I maintain that the energy source has to come from fat ... Finally, its effect can surely be measured, especially if you are sensitive to your body's fat loss rates.

[Spook]

Fat loss is likely minimal

Not so sure on that. with vinegar alone that is probobly ture. BUT... possibly and this is a big maybe, HCA supplementation together with acetic acid should work synertistically. As the main thing keeping fat burning from happening in such a scenario is going to be the rise in citrates as observed in the rats. Inhibition of ATP-citratelyse could very well cause a temporary shift in the fuel utilization of the cell.

[Par Deus]

Or even better, you could stop FAS downstream of malonyl-CoA, and still get the negative feedback signal in the brain.

[Spook]

agreed

[nandi12]

Since learning more about the harmful effects of low grade metabolic acidosis I have started using sodium bicarbonate and potassium citrate as buffers when using vinegar. I use the vinegar post workout to enhance glycogen repletion. The fat burning effect is a logical consequence of glucose being stored as glycogen rather than being burned for fuel at the expense of fat, but has not actually been demonstrated to my knowledge. Here is a link to acidosis, cortisol, and buffering strategies:

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/sho...p?threadid=1772

[virtualcyber]

nandi

Since the buffers neutralize the acids, what good is it in taking the acids together with the buffers? Perhaps your strategy is to take the acetic acid just after you exercise (with carbs) so as to let it aid your muscle build up of glycogen; and then after some time, take the sodium bicarbonate and potassium citrate to neutralize?

[Tomas]

The buffering is meant for getting the acid in the tissues under control (lactic acid). There is a lot of stomach acid and you won't neutralize this acids with some bicarbonate, otherwise you couldn't digest any protein anymore, if this were the case.
Buffering of acetic acid should give you acetate, which can also be formed to acetyl-CoA and then to citrate which seems to inhibit PFK-1. So even if the acetic acid should be buffered by the bicarbonates it still should work.
Virtualcyber, try Nandi's approach with buffering agents and come back to this board in 2 weeks and tell me you didn't notice any improvements in recovery ability!

[eclypz]

Wow I noticed something weird today, and you guys will prolly blow this off, but it was interesting. All this reading about acidosis made me wonder. I have been taking fairly high levels of vitamin c and otherwise i have been feeling pretty run down. Anyways, I got heartburn, and so I decided to pop some rolaids. And dman if I didnt feel better throughout my body after about fifteen minutes. Not completely better, but I felt as if a stress was no longer as apparent. Almost felt a second wind. hmmmm.... Like I said ti wasnt huge, but something was there, and then I read this thread hmmmmm.... I need some buffers

[virtualcyber]

Tomas

The buffering is meant for getting the acid in the tissues under control (lactic acid). There is a lot of stomach acid and you won't neutralize this acids with some bicarbonate, otherwise you couldn't digest any protein anymore, if this were the case.

I was not talking about neutralizing stomach acid, though. I was talking about shifting the PH of the body.

Buffering of acetic acid should give you acetate, which can also be formed to acetyl-CoA and then to citrate which seems to inhibit PFK-1. So even if the acetic acid should be buffered by the bicarbonates it still should work.

It would be nice, but I am not yet convinced. I just have not seen (maybe cuz I don't know much about chemistry) any references to indicate that buffering acetic acid inside your body will give you acetate in your bloodstream (maybe just inside your stomach ...), or that it will be turn to acetyl-CoA, and then to citrate. Or even if those byproducts were present, that they will be bioavailable long enough to make any difference, let alone them having any effect on your muscle glycogen store.

Virtualcyber, try Nandi's approach with buffering agents and come back to this board in 2 weeks and tell me you didn't notice any improvements in recovery ability! 

Do you mean I should go ahead and experiment before I get additional facts about particular supplements and about how to take them? I think experimenting is good approach, if done "correctly" -- but generally risky in terms of time and money. I think that is why we have discussion boards and try to understand particulars.

In any case, I was not disputing whether buffers work (which I assume they do). Rather, I was asking if buffers neutralizes acetic acid to such an extent that acetic acid is rendered ineffective.
Or does that matter? Like you said above, I suppose it is possible that acetic acid works because it converts to something else in the body. It would be nice to see supporting evidence for this.