Hydroxycitric Acid (HCA), Spook's Vinegar Supposition Options

[Coprolith]

I was reading through the old vinegar threads just now and saw this from Spook early in one of the first threads:

Possibly and this is a big maybe, HCA supplementation together with acetic acid should work synertistically. As the main thing keeping fat burning from happening in such a scenario is going to be the rise in citrates as observed in the rats. Inhibition of ATP-citratelyse could very well cause a temporary shift in the fuel utilization of the cell.

I didn't really see HCA directly mentioned in the thread again (though I might have missed it), so did this ever pan out in the research, or is the consensus sill pretty settled on vinegar/sodium acetate with citric acid/citrate salt as opposed to acetate + HCA?

Forgive me if this is a silly question, as I am under the impression the HCA and Citric Acid are chemically similar but have different effects in the body.

And, just for reference, if the standard protocol is still acetate+citrate, and I was going to use sodium acetate and, say, calcium citrate, what kind of dosing or ratio should I aim for with them? There was a fair amount of speculation on dosing in all of the threads, but I don't recall anything concrete for sodium acetate as opposed to vinegar.

[Coprolith]

Once more, with feeling.

[Stay Puft]

HCA is also a good appetite suppressant.

[dawza]

HCA = ATP-Citrate-Lyase inhibitor. Cell-permeable in vitro, but has not panned out as well as expected in vivo.

ATP-CL = one of the key enzymes in de novo lipogenesis, and a potential target for treatment of obesity. Not quite as sexy as ACC-2, but an interesting enzyme nonetheless.

HCA and citric acid are different chemicals, yes.

[D Sade]

BUMP...anyone want to play with high dose HCA/Vinegar extract/sodium acetate?

[protomike]

BUMP...anyone want to play with high dose HCA/Vinegar extract/sodium acetate?

sounds interesting... if you need someone im down.

[Gdawg]

What's the cost of HCA? I know that sodium acetate is very cheap and I have a bunch on-hand already.

[Colin]

BUMP...anyone want to play with high dose HCA/Vinegar extract/sodium acetate?

I've been taking a spponful of vinegar with CHO meals of 50G or more (discounting pre post w/o) but I'm intrigued enough to up the ante with the trifecta you're contemplating.I'd even use them @ pre+post w/o meals as the combo looks nice on add'l fat loss while in caloric deficit.

So if you're in need of testers,I'm hella game.

[Pup0182]

That's a badass combo...Nutraplanet going to have that up as a stack or you just looking for testers DSade?

[Pipliest]

BUMP...anyone want to play with high dose HCA/Vinegar extract/sodium acetate?

Count me in.

[Colin]

I'd also buy it as a powder to avoid downing vineger shots and capping the rest.

[D Sade]

What's the cost of HCA? I know that sodium acetate is very cheap and I have a bunch on-hand already.

Just waiting on price response. The material is sitting in the warehouse, just waiting for me to place the PO.

[ozzman]

Question on this combo.

I love Apple Cider Vinegar, carbs + ACV = no bloat + no added abdominal fat...problem is whithin a couple of days of doing this, my ass is on fire and the heartburn quotient goes through the roof.

Back to the question, will the HCA stack have the same effects?

[D Sade]

What's the cost of HCA? I know that sodium acetate is very cheap and I have a bunch on-hand already.

HCA is VERY cheap.

We can probably do a 40-50% material for around $10 for 200 grams.

[Gdawg]

Sounds very reasonable.

I'm waiting on your bcaa's and damage control special before ordering, so I'll be sure to order some of this to try out if/when you stock it also.

[D Sade]

Guess I had better get this into gear then, eh?

[Gdawg]

Guess I had better get this into gear then, eh?

[D Sade]

DONE. This is being sent tomorrow. Should have it ready to go by end of week.

Anyone have any thoughts about stacking HCA with Choline Citrate?

[D Sade]

Cellular Basis of Exercise-induced Changes in Substrate Metabolism
Finally, Neil Ruderman, MD, PhD, of the Boston University School of Medicine, a leader in the enzymology of muscle metabolic pathways, discussed the latest information on the cellular basis for exercise-induced changes in substrate metabolism.[7] Dr. Ruderman addressed the regulatory events that allow the muscle cell to utilize glucose or fatty acids at rest and during exercise, and he focused particularly on the role of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) in fatty acid oxidation.
Skeletal muscles consume 80% to 90% of whole body oxygen utilized during exercise. Their choice of substrate for fuel differs during rest and exercise in normal persons. At rest (while fasting) about 90% of fuel consumption is fatty acid-derived and about 10% is carbohydrate-derived. But with moderate exercise, there are substantial increases in both fatty acid and carbohydrate oxidation. How do these shifts occur? There is an important molecular sensor that regulates the change the level of AMP in the cell, which reflects a decrease in the fuel supply.

During exercise, as a result of increased glucose uptake and glycogenolysis, glucose-6-phosphate increases in muscle cells. Normally it is not permitted to accumulate because pyruvate dehydrogenase is activated within seconds, resulting in increased flux through the Krebs cycle leading to increased glucose oxidation. Fatty acids are likewise oxidized but via a different pathway under different regulation. Lipolysis during exercise leads to increased delivery of free fatty acids to muscle cells. These are taken up by the cells, initially bound to a fatty acid binding protein, and then acted on by fatty acyl-CoA synthase to produce long chain fatty acyl-CoA.

A crucial next step is the activation of carnitine palmitoyl transferase I (CPT I) to shuttle the fatty acyl-CoA into the mitochondria for oxidation. CPT I is inhibited by malonyl-CoA, which is synthesized by the action of acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC), ACC is regulated positively by increased citrate (an allosteric activator that accumulates in the presence of insulin and glucose) and negatively by AMPK. Citrate activates ACC, while AMPK phosphorylates and inhibits ACC in a manner that supersedes the effect of insulin and glucose. A third regulator of malonyl-CoA is malonyl-CoA decarboxylase, the activity of which is also increased by AMPK, and which decreases malonyl-CoA levels in the cytosol.

To put these events in a physiologic context: during feeding, in the presence of insulin and glucose, malonyl-CoA accumulates and inhibits CPT I, thus inhibiting fatty acid oxidation. Conversely, when the muscle cell is deprived of glucose, or when it is contracting, malonyl-CoA decreases due to increased AMPK activity (resulting from low fuel supply and increased cellular AMP) as well as increased malonyl-CoA decarboxylase activity -- fatty acyl-CoA can then be transferred to the mitochondrion for oxidation.

So, as a result of AMPK activation during muscle contraction, the activity of ACC goes down and the activity of malonyl-CoA decarboxylase goes up, and they remain in this state for some time after the contraction. During this time the concentration of malonyl-CoA presumably remains low, permitting enhanced fatty acid oxidation. This mechanism may be a major pathway of enhancing lipid oxidation after exercise. There are also other amplifying effects of this mechanism. For instance, AMPK can also phosphorylate and inhibit glycerol phosphate acyl-transferase, an early step in forming diacylglycerol and triglycerides. It would be beneficial to prevent the accumulation of these lipid moieties in the muscle cell, inasmuch as increases in muscle diacylglycerol, triglyceride, fatty acyl-CoA, and the resultant activation of protein kinase C isoforms, are associated with insulin resistance. Furthermore, data from research by Goodyear and colleagues[8] at the Joslin Diabetes Center, Boston, show AMPK activity enhances glucose uptake into muscle cells.[8]

These data underscore the importance of effective lipid oxidation in response


taken from:http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/419032

Correct me, then, if I am wrong...but a DCP/SesaThin/Berberine dose before workout, then HCA/Vinegar/citrate post workout would seem to be an extremely potent Recomp protocol?

Thoughts?

[Gdawg]

Hmm... I think most of the Avant guys have always advised not using sesathin before workouts. Not sure why though, probably just because of the low fat content typically seen preworkout. The post workout mix would be good though.

BTW, do you think the HCA will be up for sale before the end of November? I'm wanting to buy the Extend while it's on sale and would like to just order it together in one shipment if possible.

[Bachovas]

Chuck Rudolph recommends a small serving of peanut butter or some other fat source a few minutes pre-workout to encourage fat oxidation during the workout. Or at least something along those lines.

The addition of SesaThin to that notion would definitely make sense.

[D Sade]

Hmm... I think most of the Avant guys have always advised not using sesathin before workouts. Not sure why though, probably just because of the low fat content typically seen preworkout. The post workout mix would be good though.

BTW, do you think the HCA will be up for sale before the end of November? I'm wanting to buy the Extend while it's on sale and would like to just order it together in one shipment if possible.

November ending tomorrow, I doubt it.

Tell you what...in the comments section, reference Matt Pearson...then put to hold off shipping until the HCA arrives, then include 25 grams, on me.

You have to post a review, though.

[Gdawg]

Thanks, Matt! Good deal, I'd be happy to post feedback.

[Marc McDougal]

Sesathin being anti-inflammatory would probably not be the best choice pre-workout...as this is the one time of day we want to encourage inflammation.

[liorrh]

Chuck Rudolph recommends a small serving of peanut butter or some other fat source a few minutes pre-workout to encourage fat oxidation during the workout. Or at least something along those lines.

The addition of SesaThin to that notion would definitely make sense.

what a stupid advice. much better ways. (peanut butter? geez)

[D Sade]

Sesathin being anti-inflammatory would probably not be the best choice pre-workout...as this is the one time of day we want to encourage inflammation.

good point.

[Kimbo]

FWIW, Spook had actually suggested that I use a dose of Sesathin pre-workout for fatty acid oxidation purposes. I wish I still had the PM he sent me.

[cakes and pies...]

what a stupid advice. much better ways. (peanut butter? geez)

i disagree. have you tried the cut diet? it is very effective and every aspect is well thought out.

[liorrh]

I was saying the peanut butter is a stupid advice.

cakes and pies. what kind of logic is that? do I need to do his diet to invalidate this specific crappy advice?

[cakes and pies...]

I was saying the peanut butter is a stupid advice.

cakes and pies. what kind of logic is that? do I need to do his diet to invalidate this specific crappy advice?

according to chuck rudolph himself, fat intake taken pre-exercise can stimulate the release of fatty acids. He goes on to mention how a negative energy balance leads to an increase in ghrelin and a decrease in leptin and one can modulate this hormonal response by preceding exercise with a poly/monounsaturated fat intake.

are you saying that fat before exercise is stupid advice or fat in the form of PB is stupid?