[virtualcyber]

I have been taking 5 g of ginseng extract (6% ginsenosides, which works out to be 300 mg of the active substance), divided in two doses daily.

It has been 3 days; I am really beginning to feel good. I wonder if it is caused by ginseng. Basically, there is elevation in mood. Oh, yeah, and the morning wood. (Other "supps "that have similar effect: dopamine agonists, l-theanine, excess calories, tribulus). This makes me suspect it is affecting dopamine receptors and hypothalamus.

Has anyone tried high dose ginseng and experienced anything similar?

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Studies on ginseng show that its effects are mainly on brain cells. It is neurotrophic, actually neuroprotective. Long term physical effect (manifested 6-months to a year after 1 month administration of ginseng) is that, in aged animals, metabolic rate increases and in younger animals, it decreases. One might speculate that ginseng does something to nervous system, such that it "renormalizes."

In the East, aged people do not want to take ginseng, because, when one is close to death, it supposedly makes them linger and do not let them pass away quickly.

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So, I wonder if my elevation in mood is real or placebo?

[Vitrius]

Yeah, I noticed the same, especially sex drive-wise. Several phytochems from the panax variety have adreno- and dopamine-active/modulating effects in vitro, as far as that goes. I never noticed any effect till I got one of GNC's usually grossly overpriced liquid cap standardized versions on sale though, so solution extract might be important. What's your product?

Medline various ginseng species: it's got a number of putative benefits - blood pressure regulation, adrenal protection, neuroprotection, nootropic activity, antioxidant action, etc.

It tends to be pretty expensive for a standardized product, however, considering the doses needed.

[virtualcyber]

By whatever mechanism, ginseng seems to be affecting DNA. See the abstract below.

About the abstracts:

(1) The first one talks about delta polymerase. This particular molecule is responsible for making corrections to DNA during replication. The first abstract hints that DNA's error correction mechanism is triggered by ginsenosides.

(2) The second study illustrates the positive effects on DNA, by ginsenosides. This confirms what the preceding abstract suggets.

(3) The third abstract talks about apoptosis of cancer cells. If those cancer cells develop due to DNA problems, it would make sense that "corrections" (due to delta polymerase) to it may cause those cells to commit suicide.

(4) A random study -- I thought I throw it in for those who are worried about receding hairlines.

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(1) Ginsenosides activate DNA polymerase delta from bovine placenta.

Cho SW, Cho EH, Choi SY.

Department of Biochemistry, College of Medicine, University of Ulsan, Seoul, Korea.

The activation of a DNA polymerase delta (pol delta) purified from bovine placenta by ginsenosides from Panax ginseng C. A. Meyer has been studied. Preincubation of the enzyme with ginsenosides increased the polymerase activity 2.2-fold in a dose-dependent manner. There was a reproducible decrease in Km, in addition to a substantial increase in Vmax, in response to increasing concentrations of ginsenosides. Ginsenosides also activated the proofreading ability of 3'- to 5'-exonuclease activity associated with DNA pol delta. The coordinated activation of both polymerase and exonuclease activities of DNA pol delta by ginsenosides is consistent with the view that its polymerase and its exonuclease activities residue on the same protein molecule. UV/Vis difference spectroscopic studies suggested that the activation of DNA pol delta by ginsenosides might be due to the conformational change induced by ginsenosides binding.

PMID: 7564883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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(2) Panax notoginseng saponins attenuated cisplatin-induced nephrotoxicity.

Liu SJ, Zhou SW.

Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Xin Qiao Hospital, Third Military Medical University, Chongqing 400037, China.

AIM: To study protective effects of Panax notoginseng saponins (PnS) against cisplatin-nephrotoxicity. METHODS: Cisplatin-induced nephrotoxicity in mice in vivo, and primary culture of rabbit proximal tubular cells (PTC) in vitro were established. Blood urea nitrogen, serum creatinine, cell viability, DNA interstrand cross-link, DNA-protein cross-link, and cytosolic free [Ca2+]i were assayed with diacetyl monoxime, alkaline picrate, trypan blue, ethidium bromide binding, 125I-postlabelling, and Fur 2-AM, respectively. RESULTS: With pretreatment for 2 d in mice, PnS 100 and 200 mg.kg-1.d-1 suppressed cisplatin-induced high blood urea nitrogen level to 83% and 31%, and serum creatinine level to 86% and 42%, respectively (P < 0.01). Preincubated with PTC for 24 h, PnS 10 and 100 mg.L-1 inhibited cisplatin-induced decrease of cell viability from 78% to 81% (P < 0.05) and 89% (P < 0.01), respectively. PnS 10 and 100 mg.L-1 suppressed formations of DNA interstrand cross-link to 47% and 40%, DNA-protein interstrand cross-link to 77% and 42%, and cytosolic free [Ca2+]i overload in PTC to 70% and 63%, respectively. (P < 0.01). CONCLUSION: PnS was a prophylactic for cisplatin-induced nephrotoxicity, and mechanisms were relevant to the effects that PnS reduced cisplatin-induced cytosolic free [Ca2+]i overload, and formations of DNA interstrand cross-link and DNA-protein cross-link.


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(3) Induction of apoptosis by a novel intestinal metabolite of ginseng saponin via cytochrome c-mediated activation of caspase-3 protease.

Lee SJ, Ko WG, Kim JH, Sung JH, Moon CK, Lee BH.

College of Pharmacy and Medicinal Resources Research Center, Wonkwang University, Iksan, 570-749, Chonbuk, South Korea.

Ginseng saponins exert various important pharmacological effects with regard to the control of many diseases including cancer. The novel intestinal bacterial metabolites of ginseng protopanaxadiol saponins have recently been found and isolated after the oral administration of ginseng extract in human and rats. 20-O-(beta-D-Glucopyranosyl)-20(S)-protopanaxadiol (IH-901) formed from ginsenosides Rb1, Rb2, and Rc is of particular interest in cancer chemoprevention and treatment. We investigated the effects of IH-901 on the human myeloid leukemia cell line HL-60 in terms of inhibition of proliferation and induction of apoptosis. IH-901 showed a significant cytotoxic activity in HL-60 cells (IC(50) = 24. 3 microM) following a 96-hr incubation. Treatment of HL-60 cells with IH-901 resulted in the formation of internucleosomal DNA fragments. The dose- and time-dependent induction of apoptosis by IH-901 was demonstrated in sandwich enzyme immunoassay and the results were confirmed by flow cytometric analysis. Morphological examination of IH-901-treated samples showed cells with chromatin condensation, cell shrinkage, and nuclear fragmentation, all typical characteristics of apoptotic cells. The treatment of HL-60 cells with IH-901 caused activation of caspase-3 protease and subsequent proteolytic cleavage of poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase. IH-901 did not affect the expression of antiapoptotic protein Bcl-2 but did cause a release of mitochondrial cytochrome c into cytosol. In conclusion, our results demonstrate that IH-901 dramatically suppresses HL-60 cell growth by inducing programed cell death through activation of caspase-3 protease, which occurs via mitochondrial cytochrome c release independently of Bcl-2 modulation. These results may provide a pivotal mechanism for the use of IH-901 in the prevention and treatment of leukemia.

PMID: 10927026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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(4) Panax ginseng prevents apoptosis in hair follicles and accelerates recovery of hair medullary cells in irradiated mice.

Kim SH, Jeong KS, Ryu SY, Kim TH.

Department of Anatomy, College of Veterinary Medicine, Chonnam National University, Kwangju, South Korea.

We studied the effect of the water fraction of Panax ginseng, one of traditional oriental medicine herbs on apoptosis and the formation of medullary cell in the hair follicles of irradiated mice. The hair follicle or its differentiated product, the hair, which represents a linear historical record of follicular proliferative activity, could provide a biological indicator of the effect of radioprotective drugs. Adult N:GP(s) mice with hair follicles synchronously in the middle of the hair growth cycle received whole-body doses of gamma-radiation. The hair follicles were analysed either 12 hours after irradiation with 2 Gy in the experiment on the apoptosis, or 3 days after irradiation with 3 Gy in the experiment on the forming medulla. The number of medullary cells per unit length (100 microns) were measured by H and E staining. Apoptosis was detected by a nonisotopic in situ DNA end-labeling (ISEL) technique and H and E stain applied to the serial histologic sections. ginseng administration before irradiation resulted in a suppression of apoptosis, as shown by a reduced number of cells stained with ISEL for fragmented DNA, both i.p. (0.3 mg/head, p < 0.05) and p.o. (2 mg/ml of drinking water, p < 0.05) treatment. In addition, ginseng treatment was associated with an increase in the number of medullary cell per unit length as compared with the vehicle treated mice (p < 0.001, i.p.; p < 0.05, p.o.). These results indicate that the water fraction of ginseng can exert a potent effect on the recovery of the hair follicles by its combined effects on proliferation and apoptosis of the cells in the hair follicle.

[prolangtum]

Where are you getting the ginseng extract from? By feeling good, what exactly do you mean?

[Benson]

virtualcyber, on Feb 18 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

In the East, aged people do not want to take ginseng, because, when one is close to death, it supposedly makes them linger and do not let them pass away quickly.

Its also specifically contraindicated in cases of "pathogenic invasion" because it will "nourish the pathogen" and actually make you sicker.

[BR00KLYNJUICE]

Ginseng I would say is in the same league as RHO as long as quality and the extracts are high.

[virtualcyber]

prolangtum, on Feb 26 2005, 03:27 AM, said:

Where are you getting the ginseng extract from? By feeling good, what exactly do you mean?

(1) Mine is from BAC. I was dosing at around 300 mg of the active ingredient (7 grams of the stuff).

(2) By feeling good, I do not mean that I am feeling high, euphoric, or ecstatic. It is more like the absense of any negative mood.

In daily life, one's brain generally contains a degree of bad mood, which originates from psychological (e.g., bad memory of an incident in the morning) and physical (e.g., recurring muscular pain, fatigue, hunger) causes. Depending on days, one has more or less of it.

This "bad mood" seems to be squeezed out.

[virtualcyber]

BR00KLYNJUICE, on Feb 26 2005, 10:09 AM, said:

Ginseng I would say is in the same league as RHO as long as quality and the extracts are high.

As for psychological response, perhaps they evoke similar sense of well being.

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However,

(1) Based on pubmed abstracts, I don't think ginseng and rhodiola work via the same mechanisms.

(2) I also think rhodiola gives one much faster response (about 2 weeks). If ginsensg does exert its effects via DNA, it will take months for its effects to manifest itself. Furthermore, its effects should be MUCH longer lasting as well.

[Colin]

What kind of dose would you suggest for tring out a combo run of rhodalia and ginsinoside for improved mood and the nootropic effects?

I've decided to give this a try as they're both relatively inexpensive if bought in powder form.

[virtualcyber]

Colin, on Feb 28 2005, 09:40 PM, said:

What kind of dose would you suggest for tring out a combo run of rhodalia and ginsinoside for improved mood and the nootropic effects?

I've decided to give this a try as they're both relatively inexpensive if bought in powder form.

RHODIOLA ROSEA:

This stuff works, based on research studies and my personal experience.



DOSAGE:

It can be anywhere from 300-2000 mg ED. I prefer the high end, but it may not be necessary. I also took them in relatively empty stomach.



EFFECTS:

You should be able to see your cardio ability improving over time AFTER the first two weeks of administration (You may need to be patient; your sleeping pattern may get disturbed). In addition, you should be able to see shortened recovery period after each set of your workout. Even though not proven, I suspect rhodiola also helps with one's strength as well.

If you are using androgens, though, its effect maybe overshadowed.

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As for ginseng, I have not accumulated sufficient evidence to confirm my belief in the product or to recommend it to anyone; you maybe disappointed in its use. There has to be more to it than just psychological effect of "mood elevation" and increased horniness, both of which can be caused by placebo effect.

[virtualcyber]

I have dropped ginseng from my supplement stack.

I have been accumulating body fat, and I think it is pretty reasonable at this point to attribute this to ginseng.

The previous time I tried ginseng, I dropped it for the same reason.

I am pretty convinced that it makes me fattier.

[Benson]

I have found it tends to be an appetite stimulant.

[virtualcyber]

It is more than just appetite stimulant, IMO.

I have been keeping track of weight, strength and caloric intake.

[Benson]

Hmmm. Can you theorize then VC on the effect...partitioning? Ginseng improves insulin sensitivity so it does seem to impact the body's response to food but the few studies I am aware of seem to point to an anti-obesity effect...

[virtualcyber]

Benson:

I remember reading about increased insulin sensitivity as well.

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Possible reasons why I am getting fatter from ginseng:

(1) Gingseng maybe increasing insulin sensitivty through the wrong path (with regard to "bodybuilding" goals). This is consistent with some people's claim that they get "energy" months after they take ginseng. It maybe that those people were storing fat during the time of ginseng administration.

(2) A number of studies hint that ginsenosides tend to restore "optimal" parameters of one's genetics. If it includes one's setpoint, ginseng would not be good for me, because I want to become abnormally lean and muscular.

[Benson]

I've just added it to my routine and I'll see how it goes for a month or so. I've had a killer appetite the last few days which I thought might be the ginseng. It does seem to have normalizing effects on a number of parameters.

[virtualcyber]

Also, another consensus is that ginseng does not seem to have much effect on athletic performance. This would make sense.

EDIT: I am convinced that for those who are at high muscle to fat ratio, ginseng has catabolic effect.

[Benson]

After a little experimentation over the last month or so I have to say I now concur with your assesment VC re: ginseng and BF. Despite a ketogenic diet, I was seeing little change in my BF while taking ginseng 2g/day. I dropped the ginseng and BF is now responding as I would expect it to.

I wonder if the ginseng kept me out of ketosis? I never bothered to check with a strip but the same sort of diet usually has me in ketosis in a couple of days...hmmm

[virtualcyber]

Thanks for the feedback.

[andr3as]

It may be the case that gingsenosides trigger nonspecific phosphrylation of CRE binding proteins in the hypothalamic neurons especially in the PVN. Existing equilibrium between NPY and a-MSH may be exaggerated or both signals may become amplified.
Contrary gingsenosides may worsen some neurodegenerative pathologies through c-fos and c-jun expression increment in the hippocampus.

Don't mix it with cocaine or amphetamine.