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  1. #661
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No1 View Post
    What is SA?

    It is sustain alpha by PP. It's suppose to act like a mild serm and AI.

  2. #662
    Junior Member No1's Avatar
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    Oh, right. If it lives up to label claims, then that could be a good combination, yes. I've never used SA myself, so I can't say from personal experience, though.

    I'm about to hit the road, will be back in a couple of days. I will have a more detailed follow-up for you then.

    In the meantime, lets just say the protocol I outlined above is the frickin shiznit!
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  3. #663
    Junior Member No1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistic7 View Post
    How would Cloid and SA be?
    I just re-read your question and realized that I misunderstood it. I thought you were asking about d-aspartic acid and Sustain Alpha, but you were asking about Clomid and Sustain Alpha.

    Looking at the ingredients of Sustain Alpha, it seems that it is basically trans-resveratrol and 7,8 benzoflavone.

    Now, trans-resveratrol is good stuff and has many anti-aging benefits, and I have seen studies that show it binds to estrogen receptors, but I have yet to see any work that shows a SERM-like effect on the HPTA or anywhere else. It certainly canít compare to Clomid.

    7,8 benzoflavone is a pretty potent AI in vitro, but if I recall correctly, it has serious oral bioavailability issues. This may be why all the positive reviews of Sustain Alpha which I found were by guys who used the trans-dermal version.

    So, personally, I see no reason to stack Clomid and Sustain Alpha. A better combination might be Clomid and 6-OXO, or Clomid and Exemestane, because the elevated testosterone resulting from the low-dose Clomid will result in elevated estrogen levels unless you counteract that with an aromatase inhibitor.

    At least, that's my theory. I haven't tested the combination yet.
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  4. #664
    Senior Member djremix's Avatar
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    if you want to go full dose on the AI with clomid , please add in an SHBG inhibitor like nettle etc.

    with EOD low dosing AI, you wont need it

    from MOPE
    Currently remixing this old body!

  5. #665
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No1 View Post
    I just re-read your question and realized that I misunderstood it. I thought you were asking about d-aspartic acid and Sustain Alpha, but you were asking about Clomid and Sustain Alpha.

    Looking at the ingredients of Sustain Alpha, it seems that it is basically trans-resveratrol and 7,8 benzoflavone.

    Now, trans-resveratrol is good stuff and has many anti-aging benefits, and I have seen studies that show it binds to estrogen receptors, but I have yet to see any work that shows a SERM-like effect on the HPTA or anywhere else. It certainly can’t compare to Clomid.

    7,8 benzoflavone is a pretty potent AI in vitro, but if I recall correctly, it has serious oral bioavailability issues. This may be why all the positive reviews of Sustain Alpha which I found were by guys who used the trans-dermal version.

    So, personally, I see no reason to stack Clomid and Sustain Alpha. A better combination might be Clomid and 6-OXO, or Clomid and Exemestane, because the elevated testosterone resulting from the low-dose Clomid will result in elevated estrogen levels unless you counteract that with an aromatase inhibitor.

    At least, that's my theory. I haven't tested the combination yet.
    Thanks No1 and DJ. So, nix the SA, keep the Clomid (25mg/day), add Endosurge which could bind some SHBG and reduce prolactin. Which AI should be added?

  6. #666
    Senior Member djremix's Avatar
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    i prefer low dose weak AI to provide support for a test raising cycle.

    if you only have access to a strong AI then maybe EOD would work.

    personally i use this : Gaspari Novedex XT

    as its weak enough not to interfere ;-)
    Currently remixing this old body!

  7. #667
    Junior Member No1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistic7 View Post
    Thanks No1 and DJ. So, nix the SA, keep the Clomid (25mg/day), add Endosurge which could bind some SHBG and reduce prolactin. Which AI should be added?
    Whoah... 25 mg ED is way too much for chronic use. That's more in line with what you would use during PCT after a cycle of a mild androgen like Anavar. Give me a few minutes and I will post up some bloodwork that was obtained while taking 5 mg ED.

    Quote Originally Posted by djremix View Post
    i prefer low dose weak AI to provide support for a test raising cycle.

    if you only have access to a strong AI then maybe EOD would work.

    personally i use this : Gaspari Novedex XT

    as its weak enough not to interfere ;-)
    Yeah, I agree. I had in mind maybe 100 mg 6-OXO ED (by comparison, the Baylor study used dosages of 300 anf 600 mg).
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  8. #668
    Junior Member No1's Avatar
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    Default Bloodwork for 5mg Clomid + 5g DAA daily

    Okay, here are the results, reported by an individual who shall remain nameless, but whose details look like this: male, 6 ft, 205 lbs, age 57, lifts every second day, diet 2200 cal/day consisting of 40% protein, 30% fat, 30% carbs.

    The protocol consisted of 5g d-aspartic acid and 5mg Clomid ED, along with general health supplementation as indicated in previous posts (multivitamins, minerals, antioxidants and mitochondrial support). Testfoce 2 may have been preferrable to generic DAA, but DAA was available, whereas TF2 was not.

    (Sorry about the messy tables, but this site stripped out all my nice formatting when I pasted them into this post -- does abybody know a way around that?)
    Sex Hormones (nmol/L) Before During {Min Max}
    Total Testosterone 20.3 30.5 {10.0 30.0}
    Bioavailable Test. 10.8 15.5 {2.0 16.0}
    Free Test. 0.461 0.661 {0.090 0.700}
    SHBG 44 53 {10 70}
    Estradiol <0.100 0.235 {n/a 0.150} <==
    Liver Enzymes (U/L) Before During {Min Max}
    ALT 32 40 {n/a 60}
    AST 26 24 {n/a 35}
    Blood Lipids (nmol/L) Before During {Min Max}
    Total Cholesterol 5.10 4.90 {2.00 5.19}
    LDL Cholesterol 3.36 3.21 {1.50 3.39}
    HDL Cholesterol 1.37 1.34 {0.90 n/a}
    HDL / Total Ratio 3.72 3.66 {n/a 4.90}
    Triglycerides 0.81 0.77 {0.45 2.29}

    As you can see, sex hormones were already at pretty decent levels at the beginning of the study, so we are dealing with a guy who was pretty healthy to start with. Even so: total, bioavailable, and free testosterone all increased by about 50%, ending up at the very top of the "normal" range. Total testosterone actually went a bit over the top.

    SHBG increased by about 20%, but remained well within acceptable limits. Liver enzymes and blood lipids stayed well within the normal range, so there are no issues there, either.

    The only concern is that the estradiol level ended up too high. Now, the Clomid is in the system blocking estrogen receptors, so this is not as much of a problem as it seems at first sight. Still, Clomid acts primarily centrally if I'm not mistaken, so there could very well be some peripheral estrogenic effects which one would want to counter. So far, no changes have been noted in prostate or breast tissue, but maybe there is a bit more abdominal fat on the subject than there might otherwise be.

    So Iím now waiting for some 6-OXO to arrive. That should bring the estradiol level down into the acceptable range.

    It will be interesting to try the various combinations. More bloodwork will be posted as it becomes available.
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  9. #669
    Product Rep mich29's Avatar
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    thanks for the update


  10. #670
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    Default Androxal trials

    Quote Originally Posted by No1 View Post
    Okay, here are the results, reported by an individual who shall remain nameless, but whose details look like this: male, 6 ft, 205 lbs, age 57, lifts every second day, diet 2200 cal/day consisting of 40% protein, 30% fat, 30% carbs.

    The protocol consisted of 5g d-aspartic acid and 5mg Clomid ED, along with general health supplementation as indicated in previous posts (multivitamins, minerals, antioxidants and mitochondrial support). Testfoce 2 may have been preferrable to generic DAA, but DAA was available, whereas TF2 was not.

    (Sorry about the messy tables, but this site stripped out all my nice formatting when I pasted them into this post -- does abybody know a way around that?)
    Sex Hormones (nmol/L) Before During {Min Max}
    Total Testosterone 20.3 30.5 {10.0 30.0}
    Bioavailable Test. 10.8 15.5 {2.0 16.0}
    Free Test. 0.461 0.661 {0.090 0.700}
    SHBG 44 53 {10 70}
    Estradiol <0.100 0.235 {n/a 0.150} <==
    Liver Enzymes (U/L) Before During {Min Max}
    ALT 32 40 {n/a 60}
    AST 26 24 {n/a 35}
    Blood Lipids (nmol/L) Before During {Min Max}
    Total Cholesterol 5.10 4.90 {2.00 5.19}
    LDL Cholesterol 3.36 3.21 {1.50 3.39}
    HDL Cholesterol 1.37 1.34 {0.90 n/a}
    HDL / Total Ratio 3.72 3.66 {n/a 4.90}
    Triglycerides 0.81 0.77 {0.45 2.29}

    As you can see, sex hormones were already at pretty decent levels at the beginning of the study, so we are dealing with a guy who was pretty healthy to start with. Even so: total, bioavailable, and free testosterone all increased by about 50%, ending up at the very top of the "normal" range. Total testosterone actually went a bit over the top.

    SHBG increased by about 20%, but remained well within acceptable limits. Liver enzymes and blood lipids stayed well within the normal range, so there are no issues there, either.

    The only concern is that the estradiol level ended up too high. Now, the Clomid is in the system blocking estrogen receptors, so this is not as much of a problem as it seems at first sight. Still, Clomid acts primarily centrally if I'm not mistaken, so there could very well be some peripheral estrogenic effects which one would want to counter. So far, no changes have been noted in prostate or breast tissue, but maybe there is a bit more abdominal fat on the subject than there might otherwise be.

    So Iím now waiting for some 6-OXO to arrive. That should bring the estradiol level down into the acceptable range.

    It will be interesting to try the various combinations. More bloodwork will be posted as it becomes available.

    I'm applying for a clinical phase 3, 12 week study for Androxal. It is just beginning. I have a pre-screen blood draw appointment for next Thursday. All I had to do was fill out the questionnaire on the following link and they called me a few days later.


    On first attempt to post the link, I was denied do to low post count, so here it is in non link like form: www helpmylowt . com

    I'm 215lbs, 6'1", prolly right around 25% BF.

    T2 diabetic hypertensive taking metformin 500 mg 2/day split, lisinopril/HCTZ (20/25mg) 1/day

    I train alternating 4 day splits one week and 5 day splits the next. These are my basic measurement moves that I'm currently at.

    Bench 230lbs x 8reps
    Squat 225lbs x 8reps
    Rows 300lbs x 8reps

    Being a nub, I want to ask you, should I start a thread if I get into the trial? Do you have any experience with clinical trials? I wonder if they allow participants to post logs during the trials.

  11. #671
    Junior Member No1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistic7 View Post
    I'm applying for a clinical phase 3, 12 week study for Androxal. It is just beginning. I have a pre-screen blood draw appointment for next Thursday. All I had to do was fill out the questionnaire on the following link and they called me a few days later.

    On first attempt to post the link, I was denied do to low post count, so here it is in non link like form: www helpmylowt . com

    I'm 215lbs, 6'1", prolly right around 25% BF.

    T2 diabetic hypertensive taking metformin 500 mg 2/day split, lisinopril/HCTZ (20/25mg) 1/day

    I train alternating 4 day splits one week and 5 day splits the next. These are my basic measurement moves that I'm currently at.

    Bench 230lbs x 8reps
    Squat 225lbs x 8reps
    Rows 300lbs x 8reps

    Being a nub, I want to ask you, should I start a thread if I get into the trial? Do you have any experience with clinical trials? I wonder if they allow participants to post logs during the trials.
    Very cool! Iíve been interested in Androxal for some time now. Iím glad to see theyíre finally making some progress with it.

    Iíve never been involved in a clinical trial, no. But unless they make you sign a non-disclosure agreement, youíre free to post whatever you want, wherever you want.

    As to whether you should start a thread about it, well, it sure as hell isnít up to me, but if you decide to log it, please give me a heads-up so I can follow your log!
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  12. #672
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ubiyca;645113]a) not sure
    b) low-dose exemestane.. 12.5mg/day, boosts IGF-1, boosts free test significantly, counteracts the unwanted estrogen increase which is inevitable on clomid.
    c) in combination with elevated SHBG from clomid, there is also elevated prolactin levels, estradiol. Also, the possibility that clomid when taken longterm is much more carcinogenic than we give it credit for being.

    exemestane takes care of the estradiol and maybe some of the prolactin issues, but perhaps running a super low-dose DA agonist would be something to think about. Unfortunately, all the best DA agonists seem to be bad for your heart, even the non-ergot pramipexole, which is almost just as bad as cabergoline as far as heart damage goes, it`s right up there, contrary to popular belief.

    That leaves, stuff like selegiline and piribedil as potential options... or perhaps something more natural, like chaste berry (vitex), vitamin B6, zinc, etc...[/QUOTE

    Thoughts on Divinyl/Mucuna combo and Clomiphene 25mg ed?

  13. #673
    Senior Member djremix's Avatar
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    a good extract of vitex is pretty good for pct

    i dont know about chronic use for men though
    Currently remixing this old body!

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistic7 View Post
    Thoughts on Divinyl/Mucuna combo and Clomiphene 25mg ed?
    I had considered binding SHBG by adding divanil (specifically, (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran from nettle root) to my stack until I found this paper:

    Sahin, M, Yilmaz, H, Gursoy, A, Demirel, A N, Tutuncu, N B, & Guvener, N D, 2007: Gynaecomastia in a man and hyperoestrogenism in a woman due to ingestion of nettle (Urtica dioica). N. Z. Med. J. 120(1265):U2803.

    Nettle (Urtica dioica) is commonly sold as a herbal tea in Turkey. We report a case of gynaecomastia in a man (in which the only aetiologic factor identified was nettle tea consumption) and a case of galactorrhoea in a woman (in which the only aetiologic factor identified was also nettle tea ingestion).

    The problem is that SHBG binds estradiol more strongly than testosterone, and divanil binds SHBG more strongly than either. So, if estradiol is elevated start with, binding SHBG with divanil releases more estradiol than testosterone into the bloodstream, which is the oppossite of what you want.

    I think lowering estradiol with an aromatase inhibitor will lead to a reduction in SHBG, but I haven't actually tried it, so I can't be sure.

    Mucuna pruriens is very high in l-dopa, and this will support dopamine production in the body. The only effect Iíve ever noticed is increased bowel motility, but Iíve never had any bloodwork done while on it, so I canít say beyond that. I guess the long-term advisability of Mucuna pruriens depends on whether chronically elevated l-dopa is beneficial or detrimental to the substantia nigra.

    The bloodwork posted above is the result of 5mg ED Clomid, and you can see for yourself that it was pretty damn good. This suggests that 25mg ED of Clomid is way too much for chronic use, though a few weeks at that dosage makes a very effective PCT after a prolonged cycle of a mild androgen like Anavar.
    When you take the Void as your Way, your Way becomes Void.

  15. #675
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No1 View Post
    I had considered binding SHBG by adding divanil (specifically, (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran from nettle root) to my stack until I found this paper:

    Sahin, M, Yilmaz, H, Gursoy, A, Demirel, A N, Tutuncu, N B, & Guvener, N D, 2007: Gynaecomastia in a man and hyperoestrogenism in a woman due to ingestion of nettle (Urtica dioica). N. Z. Med. J. 120(1265):U2803.

    Nettle (Urtica dioica) is commonly sold as a herbal tea in Turkey. We report a case of gynaecomastia in a man (in which the only aetiologic factor identified was nettle tea consumption) and a case of galactorrhoea in a woman (in which the only aetiologic factor identified was also nettle tea ingestion).

    The problem is that SHBG binds estradiol more strongly than testosterone, and divanil binds SHBG more strongly than either. So, if estradiol is elevated start with, binding SHBG with divanil releases more estradiol than testosterone into the bloodstream, which is the oppossite of what you want.

    I think lowering estradiol with an aromatase inhibitor will lead to a reduction in SHBG, but I haven't actually tried it, so I can't be sure.

    Mucuna pruriens is very high in l-dopa, and this will support dopamine production in the body. The only effect I’ve ever noticed is increased bowel motility, but I’ve never had any bloodwork done while on it, so I can’t say beyond that. I guess the long-term advisability of Mucuna pruriens depends on whether chronically elevated l-dopa is beneficial or detrimental to the substantia nigra.

    The bloodwork posted above is the result of 5mg ED Clomid, and you can see for yourself that it was pretty damn good. This suggests that 25mg ED of Clomid is way too much for chronic use, though a few weeks at that dosage makes a very effective PCT after a prolonged cycle of a mild androgen like Anavar.
    Thanks again. You seem very knowledgable. I had ordered some Serophine from a website and should be receiving in a few days, BUT.... I was just informed that I have qualified for the Androxal study (test levels lower than 300 on 2 subsequent tests.) I'll have to read over the stuff I signed to see if it precludes logging. I'll let you know.

  16. #676
    Senior Member djremix's Avatar
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    and thats why you add in the nettle after :
    DAA+ (clomid then clomid + AI)
    stop the clomid and AI and maintain DAA with divanix

    ofcourse none is relevant for chronic use :-)
    Currently remixing this old body!

  17. #677
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    How about french roast coffee, black. Haha. Coffee contains opioid-antagonist so expect LH to rocket. Also caffeine inhibits phosphodiesterase which by some pathway is androgenic. I haven't figured all the angles. But it works. I prefer this regimen to clomid.

  18. #678
    Member Shrivelled's Avatar
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    thanks for the posts guys very interesting

  19. #679
    Junior Member mistic7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrivelled View Post
    thanks for the posts guys very interesting
    you should check out clinicaltrials.gov and search androxal. They are recruiting all across the country for about 500 participants for 3 different studies on the drug. I just got in one of them.

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    Just got clomid prescribed to me for low testosterone. Doctor wants me on this because I'm 24 and still want a family. The only reason I'm iffy about taking it, is because of the visual disturbances people said they have had. He said I should be fine with my doseage at 50mg every other day but I was wondering if anyone had any visual disturbances at a dose similar to mine. Any input would be useful.

    First blood test 9am - routine blood work. Nothing more. This was from my GP who told me I was fine, but I knew it was low for my age. My fathers was close to 600 and he's 49. I also know testosterone is at its highest in the morning.

    Total 403 NG/DL

    Second testosterone test 11am

    Total T 378 (270-1070 NG/DL)

    Bioavailable 175.7 (113.1-397.7 NG/DL)

    Albumin 4.5 (3.5-5.0 G/DL)

    Free test 71.8 (48.2-169.6 PG/ML)

    SHBG 35.2 (17.3- 65.8 NMOL/L)

    Prolactin 13 (2-17 NG/DL)

    LH 1.9 (1.5-9.3 mIU/ML) - assuming ts means its secondary.



    I randomly ran across someone who had been dealing with similar symptoms as me and he was talking to me about low testosterone. Now me, being 24 and going to the gym regularly and eating clean most of the time, was like there's no way I have low t. I never had any sexual diminishes or sexual performance problems. Maybe a decline in the sexual desire actually. Anywho, I lacked energy and motivation. I was depressed...who am I kidding... I still am. I new to all this. So some of my questions or concerns might seem stupid to someone knowledgeable on the topic so I apologize in advance. I'm just seeing such a variety on the results. It seems like everyone either totally hates clomid or totally loves it. Either way....just looking for someone who is in a similar situation as me or someone who can lead me in the right direction.

    Johnny.

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