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  1. #1
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    I'm on Effexor and started Rhodiola a couple of weeks ago.The past week I've been having pretty severe headaches,mostly in the morning upon awakening,it was mostly centered in the back of my head.It goes away when I drink some coffee and take an aspirin.



    Then I remebered reading something about Rhodiola sometimes causing headaches.I did a search on Animals board and came upon this post:



    "rosea rhod is a maoi and comt inhibitor...whichs means stay away from it if you use ssri' or X.....



    it is the herbal version of a "pressor" called phenylphrine....known as neosynephrine in the hospital....make sure you guys know what you are taking





    Only 14 of the nearly 200 different Rhodiola species have been studied for biochemical activity. This species contains phenylpropanoids(PPA), proanthocyanidins and flavinoids...



    It assists in the uptake of more intracellular calcium into the heart (a very vague statement)thus promoting a greater potential for heart muscle contraction. Rhodiola thus regulates the heart beat and counteracts heart arrhythmias.....



    wow this is a huge jump in logic....anybody everhear of calcium channel blockers....so rosea is a positive ionotrope=makes the heart beat harder,,,which over a long time will lead to LVH



    reputation for stimulating the nervous system, decreasing depression, enhancing work performance, eliminating fatigue, and preventing high altitude sickness

    ..so it is a stimulant



    The adaptogenic, cardiopulmonary protective, and central nervous system activities of Rhodiola rosea have been attributed primarily to its ability to influence levels and activity of monoamines and opioid peptides such as beta-endorphins. so it is an adaptogen....it is cardiopulmonary protective....well you could call dobutamine an adaptogen then.....if you call all of the manifestations of chf a stress(Altern Med Rev 2001;6(3):293-302)



    Rhodiola rosea has been intensively studied in Russia and Scandinavia for more than 35 years. Although the majority of this research on Rhodiola rosea is unavailable for review, available literature is supportive of its adaptogenic properties

    ...so most of the literature is not available...how convenient



    Oral administration of a water extract of Rhodiola rosea to rats for 10 days modulated biogenic monoamines in the cerebral cortex, brain stem, and hypothalamus.



    In the cerebral cortex and brain stem, levels of nor-epinephrine and dopamine decreased, while the amount of serotonin increased substantially.

    In the hypothalamus, the results were reversed with a 3-fold increase in the amount of norepinephrine and dopamine, and a trend toward reduced serotonin levels.



    It is believed these changes in monoamine levels are a result of Rhodiola rosea inhibiting the activity of the enzymes responsible for monoamine degradation, monoamine oxidase and catechol-O-methyltransferase.

    ...do you know how many contraindications MAOI's have....not to mention it blocks comt/moa...thus the breakdown of %20 catecholamine.......by the way...the sides of alpha agonists....anxiety, forceful heart beat, sever hypertension with extreme headache....and rebound nasal congestion



    It is also believed Rhodiola rosea facilitates the transport of neurotransmitters within the brain.11



    In addition to these central effects on monoamines, Rhodiola rosea has been reported to prevent both catecholamine release(hello it just said it raised catecholamines by MAOI COMTI, neg feedback induced inhibition of catecholamines....herbal man speak with forked tongue) and subsequent cAMP elevation in the myocardium, and the depletion of adrenal catecholamines induced by acute stress(most likely because they have already been released/negative feedback).12





    so....this herb is like a natural dobutamine/phenylphrine..dobutamine is for the treatment of cardiac decompensation leading to acute congestive heart failure....phenylphrine is used in shock to increase map



    also...anyone with hypertension or passed history HTN...dont take this...you will end up next to all the people that take ephedra on top of HTN...6 feet under from stroke, kidney failure and a billion other things critical htn will cause



    also...if you take any ssri or serotonin modulating drug ie extacy....dont take this...there would be a great chance of life threatening serotonin syndrome'





    i am just a little nervous about guys taking this...please give me some references telling me i am wrong....because this is what i found on my search" - decadon





    ...so I got pretty worried and stopped the Rho two days ago.However,now I'm thinking it's probably some inflamed trap/neck muscles that is giving me the headache(did some 750lbs. rack dead lockouts).Even if the headache is due to the training I'm not sure if it's safe to take w/ Effexor.



    I really like Rho but I need to be sure it's safe.



    Anyone else taking both Anti-D's and Rho?



    Thanks for any advice.
    <span style="colorurple">Nothing works but the Gun, the Whip and the Man on top.</span>

  2. #2
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    I don't know why more people don't take it for the hepato protective effects of RHO..



    Study



    Study



    Almost as good as Silybinin..



    Reduces pancreas injury from hypoxia (renin system activation)



    Increase natural levels of opioids



    May lower blood sugar via hypoglycemic effect



    --



    I've been taking 750mg /day. It gave me a headache one time.. felt great so far. difinitely notice an energy boost. i take it with ALCAR and a touch of R-ALA.

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    careful rho boosts serotonin. worst case scenario; taken with an ssri may lead to serotonin syndrome. talk to your doc that put you on eff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynJuice' date='Feb 7 2004, 10:59 PM
    careful rho boosts serotonin. worst case scenario; taken with an ssri may lead to serotonin syndrome.* talk to your doc that put you on eff.
    My guess is chances are my Doc's never heard of Rhodiola and even if she did there wouldn't be any reports of adverse drug interactions -- at least I couldn't find any on a Google search.All sites said "no adverse drug interactions have been noted so far".So she'd be clueless but probably say "don't take it just to be safe".



    BJ,do you have any links w/ collected Rho research?I know you have posted lots of research at animals(and I have searched for some of it).Specifically research on the alledged Serotonin boosting effect?



    Thanks.



    I think this is the review Decadon referenced:



    http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FDN/3...cle.jhtml?term=
    <span style="colorurple">Nothing works but the Gun, the Whip and the Man on top.</span>

  5. #5
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    bump,



    Im on Lexapro and thinking of adding Rhod...
    eatin aint cheatin


  6. #6
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    Dont do it.



    Im on Lexapro, tried adding Rho and experience the beginning symptoms of awrotonin syndrome. Thankfully I was aware of the risk I was taking and was paying close attention to problems arising.

  7. #7
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    What are the symptons?
    eatin aint cheatin


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    The symptoms of the serotonin syndrome are: euphoria, drowsiness, sustained rapid eye movement, overreaction of the reflexes, rapid muscle contraction and relaxation in the ankle causing abnormal movements of the foot, clumsiness, restlessness, feeling drunk and dizzy, muscle contraction and relaxation in the jaw, sweating, intoxication, muscle twitching, rigidity, high body temperature, mental status changes were frequent (including confusion and hypomania - a "happy drunk" state), shivering, diarrhea, loss of consciousness and death. (The Serotonin Syndrome, AM J PSYCHIATRY, June 1991)



    "The serotonin syndrome is generally caused by a combination of two or more drugs, one of which is often a selective sertonergic medication. The drugs which we know most frequently contribute to this condition are the combining of MAOIs with Prozac (this should also include the other SSRIs) or other drugs that have a powerful effect upon serotonin, ie, clomipramine (Anafranil), trazadone (Deseryl), etc. The combination of lithium with these selective serotonergic agents has been implicated in enhancing the serotonin syndrome. The tricyclic antidepressants, lithium, MAOIs, SSRIs, ECT (electric shock treatment), tryptophan, and the serotonin agonists (fenfluramine) all enhance serotonin neurotransmission and can contribute to this syndrome. Anything which will raise the level of serotonin can bring on this hyperserotonergic condition. The optimal treatment for the serotonin syndrome is discontinuation of the offending medication or medications, offer supportive measures, and wait for the symptoms to resolve. If the offending medication is discontinued, the condition will often resolve on its own within a 24 hour period. If the medication is not discontinued the condition can progress rapidly to a more serious state and become fatal. It should be apparent that the greater the enhancement of serotonin levels, the greater the chances of producing the serotonin syndrome. Therefore it is recommended that Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, Luvox, Serzone, etc. not be used concurrently with each other or any other serotonergic drugs and that these serious adverse reactions should be expected with these combinations (Callahan, 1993). (PROZAC: PANACEA OR PANDORA?, p. 88)"

  9. #9
    Senior Member Max32's Avatar
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    WHAT ABOUT STACKING RHOD WITH DEPRENYL...BTW, WHAT DOSAGE OF RHODIOLA ARE YALL USING, I AM TAKING MIKE'S BRAND @ 3%...
    Battling an Adonis Complex....

  10. #10
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    Jesus. I wonder why I didn't notice this here earlier. It came from Animal's board; figures.



    This is <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Bullshit</span>. Whoever posted it doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. And Brooklyn, you aren't helping.



    This is an example of what happens when the wrong person gets a little bit of knowledge and decides they are an expert.



    Anyway. A response I posted earlier today at the Bulk Nutrition forums.





    "rosea rhod is a maoi and comt inhibitor...whichs means stay away from it if you use ssri' or X.....


    From my article:



    "The mechanisms of action of [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] are many. These include antioxidant activity, propyl endopeptidase inhibition [2, 5], facilitation of monoaminergic activity, and opioid receptor activation. The enzyme propyl endopeptidase metabolizes various proline-containing neuropeptides including vasopressin, substance P, thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone, all of which may play roles in learning and memory processes [5, 7]. Indeed, other propyl endopeptidase inhibitors improve spatial memory in animal models [7-8]. [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] may also inhibit monoamine oxidase (MAO) and catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) and facilitate the transport of neurotransmittors in the brain [1]. Another mechanism of action is the release of endorphins. Russian research indicates that [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] induces opioid peptide biosynthesis by activating opioid receptors in both the central and peripheral nervous system [1]."



    The "may" in reference to MAO and COMT is a very big "may." This effect has been theorized because [ILINK=21]rhodiola[/ILINK] leads to various changes in monoamine levels in rats - both increases and decreases, depending on the area of the brain. It is much more likely that this is downstream to other effects of [ILINK=21]rhodiola[/ILINK]. IOW, there is no solid evidence that [ILINK=21]rhodiola[/ILINK] even has these effects yet. The mechanism of action is primarily related to its effects on various peptides.



    it is the herbal version of a "pressor" called phenylphrine....known as neosynephrine in the hospital....make sure you guys know what you are taking


    [ILINK=21]Rhodiola[/ILINK] does not raise blood pressure. In fact it reduces blood pressure increases caused by various stressors.



    It assists in the uptake of more intracellular [ILINK=14]calcium[/ILINK] into the heart (a very vague statement)thus promoting a greater potential for heart muscle contraction. [ILINK=21]Rhodiola[/ILINK] thus regulates the heart beat and counteracts heart arrhythmias.....



    wow this is a huge jump in logic....anybody everhear of [ILINK=14]calcium[/ILINK] channel blockers....so rosea is a positive ionotrope=makes the heart beat harder,,,which over a long time will lead to LVH


    [ILINK=21]Rhodiola[/ILINK]'s cardioprotective effects are due to increases in opioid peptides and antioxidant effects.



    reputation for stimulating the nervous system, decreasing depression, enhancing work performance, eliminating fatigue, and preventing high altitude sickness

    ..so it is a stimulant


    [ILINK=21]Rhodiola[/ILINK] is not a "stimulant," unless you define the word quite loosely. It does not fit under the drug category though. It increases resistance to situations that cause fatigue, but does not have any significant direct stimulating properties. Thus the term "adaptogen."



    The adaptogenic, cardiopulmonary protective, and central nervous system activities of [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] have been attributed primarily to its ability to influence levels and activity of monoamines and opioid peptides such as beta-endorphins. so it is an adaptogen....it is cardiopulmonary protective....well you could call dobutamine an adaptogen then.....if you call all of the manifestations of chf a stress(Altern Med Rev 2001;6(3):293-302)


    No, there are specific criteria a substance must meet to be termed an adaptogen, dobutamine does not meet these.



    [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] has been intensively studied in Russia and Scandinavia for more than 35 years. Although the majority of this research on [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] is unavailable for review, available literature is supportive of its adaptogenic properties

    ...so most of the literature is not available...how convenient


    The original research is in Russian. Many of the abstracts can be found on pubmed, but not the full texts.



    Oral administration of a water extract of [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] to rats for 10 days modulated biogenic monoamines in the cerebral cortex, brain stem, and hypothalamus.



    In the cerebral cortex and brain stem, levels of nor-epinephrine and dopamine decreased, while the amount of serotonin increased substantially.

    In the hypothalamus, the results were reversed with a 3-fold increase in the amount of norepinephrine and dopamine, and a trend toward reduced serotonin levels.



    It is believed these changes in monoamine levels are a result of [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] inhibiting the activity of the enzymes responsible for monoamine degradation, monoamine oxidase and catechol-O-methyltransferase.


    Where did this come from? Was whoever wrote it trying to pass it off as something they wrote themselves?



    Anyway, I covered this above.



    ...do you know how many contraindications MAOI's have....not to mention it blocks comt/moa...thus the breakdown of %20 catecholamine.......by the way...the sides of alpha agonists....anxiety, forceful heart beat, sever hypertension with extreme headache....and rebound nasal congestion


    Literally tons of the substances in foods we eat, and in drugs we take are MAOI's. It only really matters if a drug is a particularly potent MAOI. So you can't really extrapolate much just from knowing that a drug is an MAOI. It depends on the isoenzyme it inhibits, and what the potency is in various tissues in vivo. And like I said the MAO effect of [ILINK=21]rhodiola[/ILINK] is purely theoretical. There are plenty of other things that more adequately explain its effects.



    It is also believed [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] facilitates the transport of neurotransmitters within the brain.11



    In addition to these central effects on monoamines, [PLINK=784]Rhodiola rosea[/PLINK] has been reported to prevent both catecholamine release(hello it just said it raised catecholamines by MAOI COMTI, neg feedback induced inhibition of catecholamines....herbal man speak with forked tongue) and subsequent cAMP elevation in the myocardium, and the depletion of adrenal catecholamines induced by acute stress(most likely because they have already been released/negative feedback).12





    so....this herb is like a natural dobutamine/phenylphrine..dobutamine is for the treatment of cardiac decompensation leading to acute congestive heart failure....phenylphrine is used in shock to increase map



    also...anyone with hypertension or passed history HTN...dont take this...you will end up next to all the people that take ephedra on top of HTN...6 feet under from stroke, kidney failure and a billion other things critical htn will cause



    also...if you take any ssri or serotonin modulating drug ie extacy....dont take this...there would be a great chance of life threatening serotonin syndrome'


    This is all completely 100% wrong.
    -David Tolson
    My articles

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by omnibus' date='Feb 7 2004, 11:28 PM
    All sites said "no adverse drug interactions have been noted so far".
    Exactly.
    -David Tolson
    My articles

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    Quote Originally Posted by prolangtum' date='Mar 15 2004, 10:36 PM
    bump,



    Im on Lexapro and thinking of adding Rhod...
    This is fine.
    -David Tolson
    My articles

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    And, also to reiterate what I said at BN, serotonin syndrome is very rare.
    -David Tolson
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    After talking to Andrew, I decided to go ahead and order 200g from mike, should be here saturday or monday. What is the dosing on it? Low and High End?
    eatin aint cheatin


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    200-500 mg - although, I've noticed that some people like to go even higher. Personally I don't think there's good reason to go over 400-500 mg though.
    -David Tolson
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    David...I'm on prozac(20mg)wellbutrin 300mg and I'm starting out on either xanax or klonopin shortly.Would rhod be okay in my case,400-500 mg's per day?

    Thanks...



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shpongled' date='Mar 19 2004, 09:25 PM
    200-500 mg - although, I've noticed that some people like to go even higher. Personally I don't think there's good reason to go over 400-500 mg though.
    I've gone as high as 1000mg of high quality RHO



    QUALITY is a definte issue with RHO

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin' date='Mar 19 2004, 10:19 PM
    David...I'm on prozac(20mg)wellbutrin 300mg and I'm starting out on either xanax or klonopin shortly.Would rhod be okay in my case,400-500 mg's per day?

    Thanks...
    You should be fine, as far as the rhodiola, but with all of those drugs, why would you need it?



    Have you been prescribed all of this in person? Seems like an awful lot of meds.
    -David Tolson
    My articles

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    If you have a choice, opt for klonopin. From all Ive heard, prozac is not that great of an anti-depressant, side affect wise, and coming off it can be a bitch.
    eatin aint cheatin


  20. #20
    Senior Member natron's Avatar
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    klonopin has worked extremely well for me

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