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  1. #1
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    Default Is Low Testosterone Reversible? Without Long Term Therapy?

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    Can testosterone levels return and stay at healthy/normal levels, after cessation of Novadex, Clomid, or HCG therapy?

    Or once a man has low testosterone, will he always have it? And indefinite pharmaceutical intervention is needed to keep testosterone levels within a normal range?

    I'm 34 with all the symptoms of low T. Bloodwork done last week. Results next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    ...

    Can testosterone levels return and stay at healthy/normal levels, after cessation of Novadex, Clomid, or HCG therapy?

    Or once a man has low testosterone, will he always have it? And indefinite pharmaceutical intervention is needed to keep testosterone levels within a normal range?

    I'm 34 with all the symptoms of low T. Bloodwork done last week. Results next week.
    It depends on the individual, of course. Low testosterone could be corrected by making adjustments to your diet. I believe we should always explore natural remedies before resorting to drugs because I think drugs generally cause more harm than good. They don't solve the underlying problem, they merely mask it and cause more problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musclehead View Post
    It depends on the individual, of course. Low testosterone could be corrected by making adjustments to your diet. I believe we should always explore natural remedies before resorting to drugs because I think drugs generally cause more harm than good. They don't solve the underlying problem, they merely mask it and cause more problems.
    I agree with musclehead. Make sure your diet has an adequate amount of fat in it and that you are getting your daily zinc and vitamin d. Although drugs may help for some, everyone is different and some people will react well to the drugs and for others it will have no effect at all. If you think you might have low testosterone, get it checked out by your doctor right away. DON'T WAIT.

    The longer you wait the more likely you might have to stay on TRT your entire life and besides, who wants to rely on their testosterone from an external source? Not me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    Bloodwork done last week. Results next week.
    So did you get the results?

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    Low testosterone is reversible in animals, I've read about some wolf studies on the subject. A captive wolf that is fed daily becomes lazy and adapts to scheduled feedings after a few months but when released again, and having to hunt in the company of other wolves again, the testosterone returned to normal.

    I'd venture a guess but your habits and environment might be the cause of low testorsterone, try changing those?

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    BigBigFan is right, it is reversible. In fact, many conditions like this can be reversed through corrections in your diet and lifestyle. You need to evaluate your diet and lifestyle honestly before making changes to raise your testosterone levels.

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    I'd say that a lot of it can be due to the initial cause of low testosterone in the first place. Of course, you've got to consult with your physician to be sure.

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    It depends on the person, I'd recommend consulting with your doctor about this if you're interested

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    Hey Guys. Thanks for the interest. The blood work was completed a few months ago. According to my Doctor, the results came back normal, and are posted below. Interestingly, not all steroid hormones were tested for. The test results are comprehensive - 4 pages. So I'll just post what I think is relevant:

    Cholesterol 3.16 (ref range <5.20 mmol/L)
    Triglycerides 0.51 (ref range < 2/30 mmol/L)
    HDL Cholesterol 1.11 (ref range >= 1.00 mmol/L)
    LDL Cholesterol 1.82

    Vitamin B12 436 (ref range > 220 pmol/L)
    Ferritin 231 (ref range 80 - 300 Normal iron stores)


    TSH 0.73 (ref range 0.35 - 5.00 mIU/L)
    LH 4 (ref range 2 - 9 IU/L)
    FSH 2 (ref range 2 - 12 IU/L)
    Testosterone 23.9 (ref range M: 7.6 - 31.4 nmol/L)
    Prolactin 6 (ref range <18 ug/L)


    It was a fasted test. Blood was drawn around 2pm, in the afternoon. They didn't test for estrogen or estradiol, dht, shbg, free testosterone, cortisol etc.

    Doctor suggested I cut out all vitamins and supplements for a month. Some are oil-based (a, d, e, fish oil) and bio-accumulate over time. At high doses, they can interfere with other stuff. I did that for a month and a half - no effect. Got an appointment to see a urologist this March. Symptoms are the same - little to no libido. No morning erections. Weak erections. Little drive. I use Cialus which does the job, but at 35, I'll be popping this stuff for another 40 years. I thought my low sex drive was related to 5 years of shift work (day time sleep). I quit that last summer (back to regular night time sleep) - no effect. I was overweight - had a 42 inch waist back last summer (6'4). I got in the gym and dieted - no effect. I'm now at the 35 inch waist, and in good shape. That's about all i can think of. Experimenting now with ~100 mg zinc per day. Asked my dad, and he got morning wood well into his 50's. Odd, yes. But relevant.

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    For most accurate results hormones at best tested around 8am. I proved the theory when I had my levels tested at 10 Am and then later at 8AM. My test levels were even lower at 8Am. I'm dealing with low-T myself right now and looking into HCG treatment. That's the direction I'd go in if you can. This means it doesn't have to be a very long term treatment.

    When I look at your test results I'd say your TSH is too low. I'd have more tests done on your thyroid (TSH,T3/T4) Your FSH is definitely too low for 2pm and I'm willing to bet your LH and T would be much lower around 8 AM. HCG works like LH in your body to get you to make more TEST naturally so this would definitely be the preferred treatment. Make sure to get your blood work done fasting around 8 am next time!

    As far as what you can do right now, first thing I was gonna say is increase your zinc intake which you have already done. Stay on that regimen for awhile and see how you feel from week to week. I'm currently taking in around 60mg supplemental zinc right now and I have noticed some differences in just a weeks time. I'd also recommend you get your vitamin D levels tested and start taking atleast 2,000IU of D3 gel caps. Take it with fat. Also 3 grams of Fish oil a day. I had low D levels and started up on 5,000IU for the last 3 weeks or so. It helps me sleep a lot better but haven't noticed much other than that. The fish oil helps your mood and the joint pain associated with Low-t and low estrogen which you probably have too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    For most accurate results hormones at best tested around 8am. I proved the theory when I had my levels tested at 10 Am and then later at 8AM. My test levels were even lower at 8Am. I'm dealing with low-T myself right now and looking into HCG treatment. That's the direction I'd go in if you can. This means it doesn't have to be a very long term treatment.

    When I look at your test results I'd say your TSH is too low. I'd have more tests done on your thyroid (TSH,T3/T4) Your FSH is definitely too low for 2pm and I'm willing to bet your LH and T would be much lower around 8 AM. HCG works like LH in your body to get you to make more TEST naturally so this would definitely be the preferred treatment. Make sure to get your blood work done fasting around 8 am next time!

    As far as what you can do right now, first thing I was gonna say is increase your zinc intake which you have already done. Stay on that regimen for awhile and see how you feel from week to week. I'm currently taking in around 60mg supplemental zinc right now and I have noticed some differences in just a weeks time. I'd also recommend you get your vitamin D levels tested and start taking atleast 2,000IU of D3 gel caps. Take it with fat. Also 3 grams of Fish oil a day. I had low D levels and started up on 5,000IU for the last 3 weeks or so. It helps me sleep a lot better but haven't noticed much other than that. The fish oil helps your mood and the joint pain associated with Low-t and low estrogen which you probably have too.
    Thanks Flaw! Much appreciated! Nice to get feedback from another guy with similar issues. The D3 I take everyday - 5-10k iu. Fish oil, I'll start again. The zinc, been on it for about 4 days (~100 mgs, day).

    What causes libido and erections, to start with? Cause my test, even at 2pm in the afternoon (fasted), isn't that low? Insufficient data - impossible to say (could be high estrogen, high shbg, low dht). Are FSH and TSH implicated in libido? Anyway, this is strange and frustrating. My dad was fine into his 50's. This is year four for me with messed up libido. Started at 31. Why is this happening? Did God really design men to be limp dicks at 30? Is this a cruel joke? I'm rambling. Thanks for posting.

    Edit: ya, I'll try the clomid/resveratrol route if the urologists can't get me back to normal. There is no way, I'll do TRT. Permanent atrophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    Thanks Flaw! Much appreciated! Nice to get feedback from another guy with similar issues. The D3 I take everyday - 5-10k iu. Fish oil, I'll start again. The zinc, been on it for about 4 days (~100 mgs, day).

    What causes libido and erections, to start with? Cause my test, even at 2pm in the afternoon (fasted), isn't that low? Insufficient data - impossible to say (could be high estrogen, high shbg, low dht). Are FSH and TSH implicated in libido? Anyway, this is strange and frustrating. My dad was fine into his 50's. This is year four for me with messed up libido. Started at 31. Why is this happening? Did God really design men to be limp dicks at 30? Is this a cruel joke? I'm rambling. Thanks for posting.

    Edit: ya, I'll try the clomid/resveratrol route if the urologists can't get me back to normal. There is no way, I'll do TRT. Permanent atrophy.
    I doubt your estrogen is high and high estrogen concerns are WAYYYYY overhyped in the body building and general health community when it comes to men. I even fell for it too at one time. Truth is a lot of men that have Low-T also have Low-E. This happens because more T equals more E so if you have Low T you get less estrogen conversion. My estrogen levels weren't even traceable they were so low. I had at one time taken the SERM 6-oxo and I did notice a positive difference but my T must have been higher then and my estrogen too. I would not touch any AI or anything that controls estrogen right now. It could be very detrimental and make your issues worse. I have all the symptoms of low E. Our estrogen levels are supposed to be on the lower side but we need some. It serves a good purpose for us as well as in women.

    Hormones have the most to do with libido and erections because that's what jump starts puberty but that's not everything. It's a complex system involving amino acids, different hormones, blood flow and oxygen flow. The brain has it's role too. Dopamine plays a big role in arousal. Testosterone treatment alone has not helped some men with ED. You really have to look at the whole system. Yes FSH has it's role as well as even the thyroid.

    Why is it happening? There's no easy answer but I wouldn't blame God. He didn't design us to live in the world man created today. Today we deal with stress that we never had to deal with before and even in stressful situations we handled them better years ago. We are becoming weaker as a species. (Many will argue against this but the evidence is mounting otherwise) You can find studies where men's T levels were higher decades ago. You will also find studies where people over 70 years old say they handle stress well while we got the young generations who are so sensitive to stress and have a inability to handle it like their grandfathers did. A lot of us in our 20's and 30's know that our grandparents were stronger than us. What do we have to look forward too? It's a scary thought. Claims are out there saying we are living longer than ever but aren't we only delaying the inevitable better by loading us up on meds? Our grandfathers and grandmothers didn't take nothing and lived into their 80's, 90's and even some 100's. I feel that our best times are behind us and man is the reason to blame for the world he designed. That's my rambling, I can go on and on about that. lol. LIke you said your pops had morning wood into his 50's. For us we'd be fortunate to have that into our 40's. Most of my friends in their 40's have ED and poor libido and are always asking me what to take.

    If your going to take the natural route to bump up your T. Look into DAA and Testofen. Maybe even low DHEA 25-50mg a day used cautiously while getting routine blood work to make sure your not getting a majority of conversion to estrogen.

    You definitely wanna avoid TRT at all costs. If your going to be treated by the doctor go with the HCG treatment if possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    They didn't test for estrogen or estradiol, dht, shbg, free testosterone, cortisol etc.
    The more details you know the more things you can try to modify to see if it leads you in the right direction. If you want to get to the bottom of this you should get numbers for these hormones too.

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    It would be interesting to see what your SHBG and Free T are....considering that is what actually matters when it comes to active testosterone. However, your LH is normal, which is a really good sign that your pituitary is functioning normaly.
    Everything I say on mindandmuscle.net/forum is hypothetical and for entertainment purposes only. Nothing I say constitutes medical advice. I am not a medical professional nor am I educated in medical practice.

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    Another option would be a new natural suplement, which helps increasing the libido. It's called Supernal Booster, it's worth trying it.

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    Thanks again for the interest, guys.

    My second set of blood work:

    Testosterone: 13.39 nmol/l (Ref range: 10 -35 nmol/l)
    Free Testosterone: 3.29 nmol/l (Ref range: 2 - 8.6 nmol/l)

    That's all that was tested for. Basically, I've got the T levels of an 80 year old. Urologist won't prescribe TRT - levels are still within reference range.

    I'm thinking low dose clomid for 2-3 months. Possible trans-dermal formestene as an AI.

    PCT seems like the logical option...but what to take?

    Another complicating factor is I live in Canada. Bloodwork must be requisitioned by a MD. Can't walk into a private lab and order a full hormonal panel. IOW, I need to find a good specialist that will work with me, monitor, and order appropriate, timely bloodwork. Otherwise, I'll have to wing it, based on how I feel. Complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musclehead View Post
    It depends on the individual, of course. Low testosterone could be corrected by making adjustments to your diet. I believe we should always explore natural remedies before resorting to drugs because I think drugs generally cause more harm than good. They don't solve the underlying problem, they merely mask it and cause more problems.
    but still then trying a run of clomid is still a good option before going right to hrt test shots that will in fact shut the rest of you down.

    Try Clomid for a couple months before going to test shots, I have seen studies where it has helped men with low T, but not everyone of course because issues can vary. but diet and supps would be first step IMO, then clomid, then MAYBE HCG, then just hrt test shots.


    Good luck man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    Thanks again for the interest, guys.

    My second set of blood work:

    Testosterone: 13.39 nmol/l (Ref range: 10 -35 nmol/l)
    Free Testosterone: 3.29 nmol/l (Ref range: 2 - 8.6 nmol/l)

    That's all that was tested for. Basically, I've got the T levels of an 80 year old. Urologist won't prescribe TRT - levels are still within reference range.

    I'm thinking low dose clomid for 2-3 months. Possible trans-dermal formestene as an AI.

    PCT seems like the logical option...but what to take?

    Another complicating factor is I live in Canada. Bloodwork must be requisitioned by a MD. Can't walk into a private lab and order a full hormonal panel. IOW, I need to find a good specialist that will work with me, monitor, and order appropriate, timely bloodwork. Otherwise, I'll have to wing it, based on how I feel. Complicated.
    So you go to your GP and ask him to give you the papers for a request... I live in canada and that is not excuse... even if you make up some lie about some herbal supp you used to try boost test but now you feel down and think maybe it hurt you. many things you can say to get the blood work. just think it over BEFORE you go in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juced View Post
    So you go to your GP and ask him to give you the papers for a request... I live in canada and that is not excuse... even if you make up some lie about some herbal supp you used to try boost test but now you feel down and think maybe it hurt you. many things you can say to get the blood work. just think it over BEFORE you go in.
    I already had 2 sets of bloodwork done. One by my MD and one by a urologist. Both didnt test for a slew of hormones. I can try a third time, ask for all hormones to be tested, doesn't mean they will be. I'll see what goes. I'm pretty much decided on clomid and an ai.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles28 View Post
    Another complicating factor is I live in Canada. Bloodwork must be requisitioned by a MD. Can't walk into a private lab and order a full hormonal panel. IOW, I need to find a good specialist that will work with me, monitor, and order appropriate, timely bloodwork. Otherwise, I'll have to wing it, based on how I feel. Complicated.
    I have no experience with them but I was told some canadian naturopaths can either order hormonal tests from a Canadian lab or send blood/saliva samples in the US for testing. You'll have to pay the full costs for the tests and I don't know if there are limitations on what kind of tests they're allowed to do. Call a few naturopaths in your area and ask them what kind of blood/hormonal tests they can do.

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