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  1. #1
    Senior Member BlackFlag's Avatar
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    Default Progesterone....the missing link?

    I have been on TRT for over 5 years. I have used just about every method of delivery and brand. I started experimenting with a small does of Progesterone cream (8-10mgs) with my TRT and I have to say that it has dramatically increased: libido, erections, mood, and healthier skin. Has anyone here tried Prog cream? If so, what were your results?
    "Sounds like JEWniversity fag talk to me."

  2. #2
    Senior Member BlackFlag's Avatar
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    Oh, I forgot to mention that this stuff cuts me up like nothing else! I cannot believe how well I can see my abs now!
    "Sounds like JEWniversity fag talk to me."

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    Yes, I have tried this as well. Progesterone is not the evil villain that it is frequently made out to be. Just like everything else, there is optimal and there is excess.

    I noticed a diuretic effect as well. If you search around this is apparently one of the known properties of progesterone.

    If you are planning on staying on it or increasing your dose it would be a good idea to get some blood drawn. I have used privatemdlabs.com (normal blood test) and zrtlabs.com (quick at-home blood spot test) for this, both have reasonable prices. I noticed that with progesterone creams I actually drove my progesterone too high (from a low 0.4 ng/ml) so I switched to oral pregnenolone which got me in range. Then I increased my saturated fat intake substantially and now I don't even need the pregnenolone to stay at 1.0-1.2 ng/ml.

    Is your cholesterol low? Mine was, which is probably the reason I was low on downstream hormones. Increased saturated fat and optimal thyroid seem to be key here, although there is disagreement across the internet as far as what exactly happens to chololesterol->pregnenolone when someone is on exogenous T. There is frustratingly little research on the topic. Anyway, n=1 but increasing my saturated fat intake fixed me up.

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    Progesterone is a god send for me. It takes my mood down, helps me relax, reduces estrogenic effects and makes me sleep like a baby. I think ippon is right though, the benefits are great, just keep the dose low and don't go over board.

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    About how much are you guys taking? Is it oral, or transdermal?

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    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippon View Post
    If you are planning on staying on it or increasing your dose it would be a good idea to get some blood drawn. I have used privatemdlabs.com (normal blood test) and zrtlabs.com (quick at-home blood spot test) for this, both have reasonable prices. I noticed that with progesterone creams I actually drove my progesterone too high (from a low 0.4 ng/ml) so I switched to oral pregnenolone which got me in range. Then I increased my saturated fat intake substantially and now I don't even need the pregnenolone to stay at 1.0-1.2 ng/ml.
    So oral pregnenolone gave you the same benefits of transdermal PROGESTERONE? It seems these two hormones get mixed up a lot, or is it that they are one in the same?

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    Here's the chart I always reference, which helps a lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg

    They are definitely two separate hormones but from my experience taking either one (progesterone or pregnenolone) increases the other. Obviously preg flows downstream so that makes sense, and I'm guessing that prog increases preg by "backfilling" or something. Not sure. Both were low for me, although I considered progesterone to be the better indicator because it's one step further downstream (thankfully it's also a much cheaper blood test then pregnenolone).

    The main difference in dosing is that progesterone creams pack a LOT more punch than pregnenolone creams. I don't know why, I thought it would have been the other way around. Really I wouldn't even bother with pregnenolone creams, although I know they are highly regarded on Dr. Crislers forum. The explanation over there is that pregnenolone creams don't raise blood levels much because the blood test isn't accurate; however, from experience progesterone creams, progesterone pills, or pregnenolone pills do raise blood levels so this doesn't make much sense.

    I agree 100% with BlackFlag that the difference between lower progesterone levels and optimal progesterone levels is enormous in terms of the way you feel, I just wouldn't use too much cream without getting some testing done. I would guess that 10-15mg/day should really be the "ceiling" if you haven't had blood drawn.

    One more thing to consider: I have read in hypothyroidism, transdermal creams don't work as as well. I don't have experience with this and I can't even remember if the source was legitimate or not, but I'm just throwing it out there.

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    Pregnenolone can convert to DHEA OR progesterone (so only some of it becomes progesterone). I am female so can't tell you about your bodies exactly, but I take 30mg pregnenolone pill to ward off hormonal cancer from taking DHEA and I cannot take more than 30mg because it causes water retention for me if I do. I have 3 genes that cause high blood pressure and progesterone is known to cause water retention (idk wehere the diaretic idea comes from?) But for sure u want ALL the hormones of nature or u will not feel as good as u can with ALL those hormones? For instance, for women they give bio estrogen and bio progesterone (no testosterone! - what a mistake!). I take DHEA and pregnenolone and let my body make the hormones it wants to. But I also take an I3C/DIM (broccoli) supplement from www dot lef dot org to ward off cancer. The best hormone lab I or my doctors have ever seen is from Meridian Valley - it is a urine lab (yucky) but it tells you every breakdown product of your hormones so u can see if there is anyplace your hormones are going wacko and correct b4 problems. i get this test through lef dot org - i dunno if u can get it direct thru the lab. my doctors are very pleased with my hormone results.

    Rydra

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFlag View Post
    I have been on TRT for over 5 years. I have used just about every method of delivery and brand. I started experimenting with a small does of Progesterone cream (8-10mgs) with my TRT and I have to say that it has dramatically increased: libido, erections, mood, and healthier skin. Has anyone here tried Prog cream? If so, what were your results?
    Do you take "natural" or synthetic cream?

  10. #10
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    what is TRT?

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    Is the progesterone cream prescription or OTC, and if so, what brand?

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    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    Senior Member BlackFlag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclypz View Post
    Yeah that is the one I use (well from vitamin world, but same thing). I have used both Preg and Progesterone. Preg makes my heart race and that is about it. I take 1/4 teaspoon a night. One thing to be careful of with the creams is to be sure that they do not contain Paraben which binds to E2.
    "Sounds like JEWniversity fag talk to me."

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    So does progesterone increase sensitivity to hormones? I see a little note down near the bottom left


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    Where did you get the above chart? It is interesting because it shows the P450 pathways which are used to convert one hormone to another. I did not know all this happened on P450 pathways. Drugs and herbs interact with P450 pathways too and it is useful to keep tabs on what is interactibe with what. I would like to be able to cite this chart.

    btw, near the top right, you note the 2-methoxyestradiol metabolite -- this is being patented as anti-cancer. To make it, you meed to be achieving adequate methylation. You can do an estimation of your methylation status by getting a blood test for homocysteine (runs about $60 and may be covered by insurance if you have high blood pressure or potential heart issues). You want your homocysteine to be 6.3. For every 3 points more you have a 35% greater risk of stroke and other cardiac event. Not to mention you may not have enough methyls to make 2-MeOE2.

    I take pregnenolone and DHEA by pill. I am female. This works for me. It does not make my heart race. However I cannot tolerate much pregnenolone...I only take 30mg. However I know a guy who takes 100mg and it does not make his heart race either. I think if your heart races you should consider whether you get enough magnesium in your diet (such as from greens, as the central ion of clorophyll is magnesium) or whether you might even by borderline hyperthyroid (John Johnson at ithyroid.com seems to believe this problem arises from low copper, but that's not so usual in men unless perchance you are a smoker as cadmium from smoke displaces copper).

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    Cool thread. Sad to see it die

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    This may have the answer, haven't read it enough times to digest it fully yet.

    http://mend.endojournals.org/content/17/4/575.long

    Although interactions between estrogen and growth factor signaling pathways have been studied extensively, how growth factors and progesterone regulate each other is less clear. In this study, we found that IGF-I sharply lowers progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA and protein levels in breast cancer cells. Other growth factors, such as epidermal growth factor, also showed the same effect. The decrease of PR levels was associated with reduced PR activity. Unlike progestins, IGF-I does not utilize the proteasome for down-regulating PR. Instead, the IGF-I-mediated decrease in PR levels is via an inhibition of PR gene transcription. In addition, the phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K)/Akt/mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) pathway was found to be specifically involved in this IGF-I effect. Our data also suggest that the IGF-I down-regulation of PR is not mediated via a reduction of estrogen receptor (ER) levels or activity. First, IGF-I induced ligand-independent ER activity while reducing ER-dependent PR levels. Second, whereas PR and cyclin D1 are both ER up-regulated, IGF-I increased cyclin D1 levels while decreasing PR levels. Third, constitutively active PI3K or Akt induced ER activity but reduced PR levels and activity. Taken together, our data indicate that IGF-I inhibits PR expression in breast cancer cells via the PI3K/Akt/mTOR pathway. Because low or absent PR in primary breast cancer is associated with poor prognosis and response to hormone therapy, our results suggest that low PR status may serve as an indicator of activated growth factor signaling in breast tumor cells, and therefore of an aggressive tumor phenotype and resistance against hormonal therapy.

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    good thread !

  19. #19
    Junior Member Steve King's Avatar
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    Amazing...I thought that was a prescription medication?
    Over 60...R U Kidding me!!!

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