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  1. #1
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    Default Pyrroloquinoline Quinone (PQQ)

    I've been taking it for a few weeks. Definitely one of my favorite supplements I've ever taken for CFS. I feel almost completely normal energy-wise (although post exertional malaise is another story).

    Benefits I've noticed: Improved concentration, major improvement in memory, energy, seems to have gotten rid of my chronic gut irritation. I wake up much easier on it. I have to actually watch myself carefully when working out because I'll easily push myself too far and get some PEM the next day or two.

    I should add that while it's the only thing I've added to my regimen in the last 4 or 5 months, I do take other mitochrondrial-boosting supplements Acetyl l carnitine, and alpha lipoic acid which no doubt have synergism with PQQ, but PQQ is where it's at.

    I take 10mg bid.


    Some stuff I found interesting when doing a little research on it:

    -Pyrroloquinoline Quinone Stimulates Mitochondrial Biogenesis

    -Pyrroloquinoline Quinone (PQQ) Prevents Cognitive Deficit Caused by Oxidative Stress in Rats

    -Effects of pyrroloquinoline quinone on glutamate-induced production of reactive oxygen species in neurons.

    -Further evidence that pyrroloquinoline quinone interacts with the N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor redox site in rat cortical neurons in vitro.

    There's a lot more info on it though. Has anyone else tried it or have any thoughts on it?

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    Yea, I've gotten some impressive results with Life Extensions mitochondrial optimizer with PQQ along with methylene blue. Thanks for the links, I had no idea that it regulated NMDA receptor activity, very cool.
    All the king's horses and all the king's men...

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    It does the opposite as nac on the nmda receptors, it negatively modulates NMDA so nothing for me, it does have potential for many and has postive reviews on bluelight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeDieViL View Post
    It does the opposite as nac on the nmda receptors, it negatively modulates NMDA so nothing for me, it does have potential for many and has postive reviews on bluelight.
    What do you mean by it 'negatively' modulates nmda? Mind extrapolating on that?

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    It oxidizes the redox site, nac does the opposite, besides it acts as antagonist too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeDieViL View Post
    It oxidizes the redox site, nac does the opposite, besides it acts as antagonist too.
    Gotcha, thanks man

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    On bluelight people have tried it for amphetamine tolerance i beleive, epsilon alpha's thread in the advanced section, i think several had succes.

    The negatives is that nmda antagonism can cause your cognition to decline a bit, you would also inhibit long term potentiation.
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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite1 View Post
    Yea, I've gotten some impressive results with Life Extensions mitochondrial optimizer with PQQ along with methylene blue. Thanks for the links, I had no idea that it regulated NMDA receptor activity, very cool.
    I missed this post, thats very interesting you got it to sync with methylene blue, perhaps i should try it, everything that syncs with methylene blue is welcome, as that stuff is strong, something added to it that works is impressive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite1 View Post
    Yea, I've gotten some impressive results with Life Extensions mitochondrial optimizer with PQQ along with methylene blue. Thanks for the links, I had no idea that it regulated NMDA receptor activity, very cool.
    What have you noticed with the addition of MB to PQQ? Is there definite synergism?

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    I talked too soon, its cognitively enhancing despite negatively modulating glutamate, it looks very interesting.
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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Interesting
    Our results reveal endogenous potentiation of NMDAR function via mass reduction of redox sites as a novel mechanism that may enhance epileptogenesis and facilitate the transition to status epilepticus. The results further suggest that redox-active compounds may have therapeutic use by reversing NMDAR-mediated pathophysiology without blocking physiological NMDAR function.
    Novel role for the NMDA receptor redox modulatory... [J Neurosci. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI
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    I tried 10mg for 3 days once, as it was a sample with my CoQ10/EPA supplement, and noticed some subtle benefits. It felt like CoQ10 for me, so I was slightly sharper and energetic than usual.

    Decent results but not worth the price on my budget.

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    Daerus, how long were you taking PQQ before you started to notice its benefits for CFS?

    Are we talking days, weeks, or months?

    I took 10 mg PQQ daily for around a week, and noticed perhaps some mild effects in improving my CFS, but nothing significant.

    I have 4 new jars of PQQ here now, waiting to retest, so I might do a test taking 40 mg of PQQ daily for 30 days. I also have LE mitochondrial energy optimizer, which has PQQ plus other things like acetyl-L-carnitine arginate, which I will add to the brew.

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    What effect does nac have on nmda? I thought nac enhanced glutamate cycling and reuptake, not increasing nmda activation. I take acamprosate and 2400mg of nac, is that counterproductive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satsumass View Post
    What effect does nac have on nmda? I thought nac enhanced glutamate cycling and reuptake, not increasing nmda activation. I take acamprosate and 2400mg of nac, is that counterproductive?
    It modulates the redox site of NMDA (no expert on this) in the opposite way as this stuff, this potentiates the NMDA receptor, besides that it lowers synaptic glutamate and raises extrasynaptic glutamate while mglur 2 and 3 get aganozid.

    Overall it acts as a glutamate antagonist, while also being agonistic, hard to exaplain. Its possible nac decreases the benefits of this stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hip View Post
    Daerus, how long were you taking PQQ before you started to notice its benefits for CFS?

    Are we talking days, weeks, or months?

    I took 10 mg PQQ daily for around a week, and noticed perhaps some mild effects in improving my CFS, but nothing significant.

    I have 4 new jars of PQQ here now, waiting to retest, so I might do a test taking 40 mg of PQQ daily for 30 days. I also have LE mitochondrial energy optimizer, which has PQQ plus other things like acetyl-L-carnitine arginate, which I will add to the brew.
    It took 2-3 days maybe at 20mg/day. 20mg was even a little stimulating for me at first, but it seems to have died down into a nice constant energy boost throughout the day, along with some of the other benefits.

    I would add in ALCAR and Alpha Lipoic Acid. In my opinion, I think there is definite synergism with other mitochrondrial enhancing supps. I'm possibly going to be throwing in methylene blue into the mix as well.

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    In case anyone is interested, here's my current regimen that's gotten me to about 70-90+% functioning. I often times feel better than I did even before the CFS shittrain hit, but alas...

    Morning
    ----------
    -Sertraline (Was 100mg, at 75, tapering down to 50mg)
    -PQQ 10mg
    -AOR Multi Basics 3, 1 cap
    -Acetyl-L-Carnitine 1000mg
    -ALA 600mg
    -Jarrow Saccharomyces Boulardii 1 cap
    -Ester-C 1000mg

    Lunch
    -------
    -AOR Multi Basics 3, 1 cap

    Afternoon/Dinner
    --------
    -AOR Multi Basics 3, 1 cap
    -Acetyl-L-Carnitine 1000mg
    -Jarrow Saccharomyces Boulardii 1 cap
    -Ester-C 1000mg
    -Jarrow Famil-E 1 Cap
    -Jarrow Zinc Balance 15mg
    -Magnesium Malate 400mg

    I also do a ton of whey protein isolate. I'm considering adding Methylene Blue into the mix.

    Actually, I should probably add that for the past year or so, I've smoked weed multiple time a day, almost every day. Taking week long breaks every couple months or so. Only strains of sativa variants, just so you know. Lol.

    This is what works for the best out of everything I've tried, and I've tried a shit ton over the last 3 years or so.

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    Default Mitochondrial Boosting for CFS: Complex I and III

    Interesting new paper on the activity of the four mitochondrial complexes during coxsackievirus B3 myocarditis:

    The mitochondrial respiratory chain has a critical role in the antiviral process in Coxsackievirus B3-induced myocarditis.

    I think coxsackievirus B myocarditis may be an excellent model for studying chronic fatigue syndrome; the symptoms are very different, but chronic, lingering CVB infection often seems to be a common denominator in both diseases.

    This paper compared mice strains that were able to completely clear the CVB infection, against mice strains that could not, and so had lingering infection/immune activation.

    After 90 days, they found that the non-clearing mice showed permanently restricted complex I activity, whereas the mice that cleared the virus normalized all four complexes.

    Note that these authors say that replicating viruses were no longer detectable after 90 days in both mice strains, but in fact, it is known that non-cytolytic Coxsackie B viruses can remain indefinitely in cells, even when replicating virus particles are no longer detectable, thus likely explaining the lingering immune activation observed in chronic myocarditis, as well as in chronic fatigue syndrome.

    In general, the authors found that reduced CVB3 titers correlated with increased complex I and III activity.

    So complex I and III are possibly the ones you want to boost most, to try to get viral clearance.

    The paper concluded: "the regulation of energy metabolism appears crucial for an effective virus elimination and may be of prognostic and therapeutic significance"


    Notes (mostly unverified):

    PQQ stimulates complex I (ref: here).
    Gingko biloba stimulates complexes I and III.
    Melatonin stimulates complexes I and IV.
    Methylene blue stimulates complex IV.
    Deprenyl stimulates complex IV

    MDMA ("ecstasy") inhibits complex I activity in mice.
    The pyrethroid pesticides permethrin and cyhalothrin are potent inhibitors of complex I.
    The organophosphate pesticide malathion inhibits complex IV.

    I'd like to get more verified information on supplements and drugs that boost the various mitochondrial complexes, or just support mitochondrial function in general.

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    Also of interest: Wikipedia's article on complex III says: "mutations in complex III cause exercise intolerance".

    Given this, I wonder if virally induced restrictions in complex III might explain the post exertional malaise (PEM) in CFS, which is an exercise intolerance.

    It adds weight to the idea of boosting complex I and III as a CFS treatment.

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