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  1. #1
    BOOM Chicka Wah Wah
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    Senior Member sartac's Avatar
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    As a noob, I had not heard of some of these programs. Others I've seen mentioned are "Russian bear" and "Slingshot" training, which both seem to be on the advanced / more complicated end.

    Found some basic info on determining muscle type and whether low or high volume training is a "better" fit:
    "What category do you fall into? You can get an idea by performing what Christian Thibaudeau calls the "80% reps test." Here's how it works: Take 80% of your one rep max on an exercise and perform as many reps as possible with good form. According to Coach Thibaudeau, if you can only perform three reps, then you're extremely fast twitch dominant and need to focus on low reps. If you can perform five to ten reps, then you're also pretty fast twitch dominant and need to stay in that rep range.

    However, if you can perform 14 to 21 reps, you're slow twitch dominant and will be better served with higher rep sets. This is very useful info for designing a high volume program (or any program for that matter)."


    Practically, it seems that the adaptive nature of muscles requires one to mix up rep ranges periodically to promote new growth. Genetics are one influence in muscle fiber development, but there are apparently things that can be done to promote fast twitch fiber growth and efficiency; a number of discussions are on here, including this one.

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sartac View Post
    As a noob, I had not heard of some of these programs. Others I've seen mentioned are "Russian bear" and "Slingshot" training, which both seem to be on the advanced / more complicated end.

    Found some basic info on determining muscle type and whether low or high volume training is a "better" fit:
    "What category do you fall into? You can get an idea by performing what Christian Thibaudeau calls the "80% reps test." Here's how it works: Take 80% of your one rep max on an exercise and perform as many reps as possible with good form. According to Coach Thibaudeau, if you can only perform three reps, then you're extremely fast twitch dominant and need to focus on low reps. If you can perform five to ten reps, then you're also pretty fast twitch dominant and need to stay in that rep range.

    However, if you can perform 14 to 21 reps, you're slow twitch dominant and will be better served with higher rep sets. This is very useful info for designing a high volume program (or any program for that matter)."


    Practically, it seems that the adaptive nature of muscles requires one to mix up rep ranges periodically to promote new growth. Genetics are one influence in muscle fiber development, but there are apparently things that can be done to promote fast twitch fiber growth and efficiency; a number of discussions are on here, including this one.
    I feel as though you are mistaking strength and size in this post. Strength will always be greater with fast twitch, type II muscles. If you are slow switch dominant, you have an up-hill battle at reconditioning your muscle to adapt or convert to type II qualities. Supplements that increase satellite cell pools will help greatly in the long run, here.

    Encouraging Type I fibers in a strength program will get you nowhere very fast. I don't know that I would suggest anything high volume for someone who is slow-twitch dominant.
    Resident Badger
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    Senior Member sartac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    I feel as though you are mistaking strength and size in this post. Strength will always be greater with fast twitch, type II muscles. If you are slow switch dominant, you have an up-hill battle at reconditioning your muscle to adapt or convert to type II qualities. Supplements that increase satellite cell pools will help greatly in the long run, here.

    Encouraging Type I fibers in a strength program will get you nowhere very fast. I don't know that I would suggest anything high volume for someone who is slow-twitch dominant.
    I take this to say that you're against GVT or any high volume training to increase strength, regardless of predisposition to type I (slow) or type II (fast) muscle fibers? As in, those with more type I or lacking alpha-actinin-3 proteins should still best focus on low volume, high loads, and consider supplements (CoQ10) to increase type II expression for strength gains, if that's their goal?
    Found this article to be interesting, fwiw

    Understand that I'm not being argumentative on preference of low vol, high intensity training for strength gains (a reason I put "better" in quotes when describing the above article on volume training). High volume is contrary to most recommendations for strength training, but I am still under the impression that rep ranges and routines should be changed up periodically or when plateaus are hit. Will look around for more info or studies, since there are reports like this floating around: "High volume training has been shown as a less then desirable training method for natural bodybuilders, but a very effective system for steroid enhanced lifters. Workouts have a tendency to turn catabolic (muscle destroying) for natural lifters after 60 minutes." - could just be a load of bollocks (no listed author or refs), and I'm not sure that they're differentiating supersets or drop sets from high volume routines like 10x10..

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sartac View Post
    I take this to say that you're against GVT or any high volume training to increase strength, regardless of predisposition to type I (slow) or type II (fast) muscle fibers? As in, those with more type I or lacking alpha-actinin-3 proteins should still best focus on low volume, high loads, and consider supplements (CoQ10) to increase type II expression for strength gains, if that's their goal?
    Found this article to be interesting, fwiw
    No. I said I was against high volume training for someone who is typeI dominant. I would suggest CoQ10, but I wouldn't stop there. Like I said, increasing the satellite cell pool while training to promote mutation to type II would be very helpful.

    I am curious as to what you think is significant in that link. I am a huge Kelley fan, and some of my opinion on this subject is from reading is articles. This one, in particular, seems to be supporting what I said in my first post - training to promote a faster twitch muscle fiber.

    Understand that I'm not being argumentative on preference of low vol, high intensity training for strength gains (a reason I put "better" in quotes when describing the above article on volume training). High volume is contrary to most recommendations for strength training, but I am still under the impression that rep ranges and routines should be changed up periodically or when plateaus are hit. Will look around for more info or studies, since there are reports like this floating around: "High volume training has been shown as a less then desirable training method for natural bodybuilders, but a very effective system for steroid enhanced lifters. Workouts have a tendency to turn catabolic (muscle destroying) for natural lifters after 60 minutes." - could just be a load of bollocks (no listed author or refs), and I'm not sure that they're differentiating supersets or drop sets from high volume routines like 10x10..
    Plateaus happen because of lack of/poor periodization. Changing routines with a slue of rep ranges is certainly not a requisite of strength training. I also feel like you seem to be using hypertrophy training and strength training as synonymous and it is anything but.
    Resident Badger
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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    GVT can be geared towards a strength program (e.g. 10 sets of 3-5), but, generally speaking, it's usually used by folks to put on size because of the amount of volume.

    Having said that, GVT was originally used by weightlifters in the off season to put on muscle and increase work capacity before moving into a higher-intensity program.

    Individual differences not withstanding, I feel that most lifters should at some point do some higher volume, lower intensity training to increase levels of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but it seems like there is a certain point at which mechanical (functional) hypetrophy gains will slow unless a lifter occasionally spends some time working on sarcoplasmic hypetrophy; or, if you prefer to look at it another way, limit strength gains will slow if the lifter doesn't do some work capacity-style training.


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    Senior Member sartac's Avatar
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    Looked over more of Kelly's articles on bb.com and found all to be rather informative. As for the above article, I was not aware of differences in type II fibers before reading, for one.

    Another popular routine is Doggcrapp training, and is said to emphasize strength/intensity, while frequently hitting the same body parts with different compound movements on a routine schedule. I'm sure its nothing new to you guys, but thought it to be relevant here. An unofficial blog for DC:
    All about Doggcrapp Training AKA DC Training

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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    I thought DC-style training was geared more towards size too? Isn't it based around performing a set to failure or near-failure followed by some intense stretching? (I'm sure it's in the article you posted but I haven't had time to look at it this morning).


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo View Post
    I thought DC-style training was geared more towards size too? Isn't it based around performing a set to failure or near-failure followed by some intense stretching? (I'm sure it's in the article you posted but I haven't had time to look at it this morning).
    It is. Using drop sets to enable as much loading on a muscle group for as long as you can sustain the maximal weight (usually for 6 rep max). Definitely for size, but it's yard stick is loading. Super low volume with very high frequency.
    Resident Badger
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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    It is. Using drop sets to enable as much loading on a muscle group for as long as you can sustain the maximal weight (usually for 6 rep max). Definitely for size, but it's yard stick is loading. Super low volume with very high frequency.
    Thanks Jake.

    One concern I have WRT extreme loaded stretching and strength gains is that it inhibits the stretch reflex at the extreme end of one's ROM. That stretch reflex not only enables a person to reverse the weight faster from eccentric to concentric, it's also a safety mechanism.


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo View Post
    Thanks Jake.

    One concern I have WRT extreme loaded stretching and strength gains is that it inhibits the stretch reflex at the extreme end of one's ROM. That stretch reflex not only enables a person to reverse the weight faster from eccentric to concentric, it's also a safety mechanism.
    Will this be a relatively permanent effect in response to the stretch?

    IOW, DC stretches are done after the last set of the muscle group. Some times after extremely long static holds. Would this stretching technique effect the next workout several days after?
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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    Will this be a relatively permanent effect in response to the stretch?

    IOW, DC stretches are done after the last set of the muscle group. Some times after extremely long static holds. Would this stretching technique effect the next workout several days after?
    That's a good question. Typically loaded stretches do have a permanent effect. But, the lifter may be training the stretch reflex enough during his working sets so that it offsets any sort of permanent "re-wiring" that occurs during the loaded stretch, assuming that they're immediately reversing the weight at the bottom of their ROM. Or by doing a loaded stretch they may also be building up enough strength at the extreme end of the ROM. I'd just be careful when doing this - the real trouble is when it actually extends the ROM past the point where it's useful for whatever activity you're doing (e.g. a PLer shouldn't train himself to be able to do the splits).


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    Product Rep mich29's Avatar
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    great stuff here


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