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    Senior Member Lohengrin's Avatar
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    Default BCAA 4:1:1 or Just Leucine?

    What do you guys think? If price was no object, which is the better option for recovery? I've read that BCAA mix offers advantages over plain leucine, or that they can be interchanged without much difference. I've also read a convincing argument that leucine by itself is actually better than BCAA because valine and isoleucine compete for amino transporters with leucine, hindering its effect, which is more significant/important.

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    google mtor leucine

    5g of leucine pre and post activates this mechanism-

    im not saying neglect BCAA mixes- but add MORE leucine in

    JMO

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    Senior Member Stackedcop's Avatar
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    I just switched to a 4:11 and am thinking of doing a 8:11 since the lice of 2:11 is getting freaking insane. So far I notice no difference from 4:11 / 2:11.
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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohengrin View Post
    I've read that BCAA mix offers advantages over plain leucine, or that they can be interchanged without much difference.
    While it looks great on paper and appears to activate anabolic changes in humans, nobody has ever been able to show an anabolic effect (greater LBM) from leucine supplementation alone...they have with BCAA.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Senior Member Lohengrin's Avatar
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    HAve you seen tests of this nature done on leucine alone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohengrin View Post
    HAve you seen tests of this nature done on leucine alone?
    it does help with strength, but even in newbies not with mass
    Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2011 Mar;6(1):38-50.
    Daily L-leucine supplementation in novice trainees during a 12-week weight training program.

    Ispoglou T, King RF, Polman RC, Zanker C.
    Source

    Carnegie Faculty of Sport and Education, Leeds Metropolitan University, Leeds, UK.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE:

    To investigate the effects of daily oral L-leucine ingestion on strength, bone mineral-free lean tissue mass (LTM) and fat mass (FM) of free living humans during a 12-wk resistance-training program.
    METHODS:

    Twenty-six initially untrained men (n = 13 per group) ingested either 4 g/d of L-leucine (leucine group: age 28.5 ± 8.2 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2) or a corresponding amount of lactose (placebo group: age 28.2 ± 7.3 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2). All participants trained under supervision twice per week following a prescribed resistance training program using eight standard exercise machines. Testing took place at baseline and at the end of the supplementation period. Strength on each exercise was assessed by five repetition maximum (5-RM), and body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA).
    RESULTS:

    The leucine group demonstrated significantly higher gains in total 5-RM strength (sum of 5-RM in eight exercises) and 5-RM strength in five out of the eight exercises (P < .05). The percentage total 5-RM strength gains were 40.8% (± 7.8) and 31.0% (± 4.6) for the leucine and placebo groups respectively. Significant differences did not exist between groups in either total percentage LTM gains or total percentage FM losses (LTM: 2.9% ± 2.5 vs 2.0% ± 2.1, FM: 1.6% ± 15.6 vs 1.1% ± 7.6).
    CONCLUSION:

    These results suggest that 4 g/d of L-leucine supplementation may be used as a nutritional supplement to enhance strength performance during a 12-week resistance training program of initially untrained male participants.
    and an older review says:
    Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2010 May;13(3):265-70.
    Long-term effects of leucine supplementation on body composition.

    Balage M, Dardevet D.
    Source

    INRA, UMR 1019 Nutrition Humaine, Saint Genès Champanelle, France.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW:

    Leucine does not only serve as a substrate for protein synthesis but is also recognized as a potent signal nutrient that regulates protein metabolism. Accordingly, leucine supplementation has been suggested to develop muscle mass or prevent protein loss in several conditions characterized by muscle protein wasting. In the present review, we reported the recent results related to the effect of dietary leucine or leucine-rich amino acid mixture and proteins on whole body composition.
    RECENT FINDINGS:

    Although recent studies corroborate that increasing plasma leucine concentration generally induces an increase in muscle protein synthesis, long-term dietary leucine supplementation has been poorly investigated. Chronic free leucine supplementation alone did not improve lean body or muscle mass during resistance training or in elderly, whereas it was able to limit the weight loss induced by malnutrition. Contradictory data were also reported concerning the effect of leucine supplementation for weight management in obese patients. Leucine-rich amino acid mixture or proteins appeared more efficient than leucine alone to improve muscle mass and performance, suggesting the efficacy of leucine depends nevertheless on the presence of other amino acids.
    SUMMARY:

    Until now, there is no evidence that chronic leucine supplementation is efficient in promoting muscle mass or preventing protein loss during catabolic states. Further studies are required to determine the duration and nutritional conditions of long-term leucine supplementation and to establish whether such nutritional interventions can help to prevent or treat muscle loss in various pathological or physiological conditions.
    the latter takes us back to the real stimulus that is training and reminds me of my blogpost from yesterday on the non-anabolic effects of creatine >

    Creatine a Proven Non-Anabolic! It's the Increase in Training Intensity that Will Give You the Hypertrophic Edge.

    creatine probably does even less than leucine in terms of "anabolism", but anything (creatine, leucine or whatever) that helps you train harder will in the end help with mass gains
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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    For the record 4:1:1 is the ratio of BCAAs, which would give you 4 times as much leucine as isoleucine and valine. So, the product is essentially adding more leucine without him having to think about it.

    Leucine BCAAs are definitely useful and the mTOR driver behind them IS leucine, and mTOR definitely has a significant effect around exercise.

    I'll agree with what physicus said, kind of. Training "harder" is insignificant. Training "better" or "stronger" is significant. BCAA+CHO with help with this. Creatine increases anaerobis work capacity, which is also very desirable. However, any 'direct' increase in LBM is almost certainly correlated very closely with intracellular volume increases.
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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohengrin View Post
    HAve you seen tests of this nature done on leucine alone?
    Yes. And ironically, although leucine supplementation appears to improve exercise performance in some individuals, it does not result in increased LBM over control (PMID:21487148, 19321567 et al)

    It could be because they did not use enough or that leucine must be taken more frequently than TID to be effective but in the meantime, if larger muscles are what you are looking for, a BCAA supplement has more science to support it.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    For the record 4:1:1 is the ratio of BCAAs, which would give you 4 times as much leucine as isoleucine and valine. So, the product is essentially adding more leucine without him having to think about it.

    Leucine BCAAs are definitely useful and the mTOR driver behind them IS leucine, and mTOR definitely has a significant effect around exercise.

    I'll agree with what physicus said, kind of. Training "harder" is insignificant. Training "better" or "stronger" is significant. BCAA+CHO with help with this. Creatine increases anaerobis work capacity, which is also very desirable. However, any 'direct' increase in LBM is almost certainly correlated very closely with intracellular volume increases.
    just a misinterpretation of "harder" I meant exactly that; harder = increased progression

    wrt to direct increase it is notable that in the study I cite there was no "water retention" or rather no increase in cellular volume without training from creatine alone; and I can say for myself that (CEE aside) I've never had that "side effect" either
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  10. #10
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    mTOR ftw

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    just a misinterpretation of "harder" I meant exactly that; harder = increased progression

    wrt to direct increase it is notable that in the study I cite there was no "water retention" or rather no increase in cellular volume without training from creatine alone; and I can say for myself that (CEE aside) I've never had that "side effect" either
    I read your article, but I still don't see where it says this. Can you help me out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeshorts View Post
    I read your article, but I still don't see where it says this. Can you help me out?
    it does not say that, but if you look at figure 2 you will see that there is no gain in muscle weight from creatine alone... if oral creatine would induce intramuscular water retention, there would have been an increase in muscle weight even in the non-exercised rats
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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    IMHO, if you're getting in adequate protein intake, isoleucine and valine aren't really needed, because you're getting adequate quantities already.


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

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    Senior Member 1fast400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo View Post
    IMHO, if you're getting in adequate protein intake, isoleucine and valine aren't really needed, because you're getting adequate quantities already.
    If that were the case, then supplemental leucine with protein would show greater effects. It's my understanding with the way leucine is metabolized, the 2:1:1 ratio is the best. Otherwise creating an imbalance.

    These 4:1:1 and 8:1:1's were only created because leucine used to be the cheapest of the 3 amino's. Since then, it has doubled and almost tripled in price. Companies will either lie and substitute in 2:1:1, raise prices drastically or discontinue the product.

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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1fast400 View Post
    If that were the case, then supplemental leucine with protein would show greater effects.
    Which it doesn't in older men (PMID:17697406) while does in younger men (PMID:15562251) or, maybe it works the same regardless of age (PMID:16960178)...the jury appears to still be out on the value of additional leucine over and above whey.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Quote Originally Posted by physicus007 View Post
    just a misinterpretation of "harder" I meant exactly that; harder = increased progression

    wrt to direct increase it is notable that in the study I cite there was no "water retention" or rather no increase in cellular volume without training from creatine alone; and I can say for myself that (CEE aside) I've never had that "side effect" either
    I'm sure the opposite has been shown in other studies. It's a very interesting study but I'm not completely convinced yet. For one, creatine is a myostatin inhibitor in healthy humans. Also, creatine in conjunction with training amplifies the training-induced increase in satellite cells and myonuclei in muscle fibers.

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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sterling100 View Post
    I'm sure the opposite has been shown in other studies.
    It has. PMID:17957000 shows that creatine supplementation in humans changes cellular osmolarity and increases total body water.

    For one, creatine is a myostatin inhibitor in healthy humans. Also, creatine in conjunction with training amplifies the training-induced increase in satellite cells and myonuclei in muscle fibers.
    IMO, all of these effects are ancillary to creatine's primary function as an intramuscular ADP recyler.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Senior Member 1fast400's Avatar
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    As someone on the manufacturing end, I'm dying to see what companies are going to do with these new price issues. I know for a fact some companies are lying about what materials they are using. This job was a lot more fun when I was just an internet guy and could rat people out lol

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    Senior Member Stackedcop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1fast400 View Post
    As someone on the manufacturing end, I'm dying to see what companies are going to do with these new price issues. I know for a fact some companies are lying about what materials they are using. This job was a lot more fun when I was just an internet guy and could rat people out lol
    Crete a fake name and rat people out that way lol
    Mind and Muscle Rep

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    Senior Member 1fast400's Avatar
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    I got way too much to risk for that

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