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  1. #1
    Senior Member Taal's Avatar
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    I need tips and suggestions on ways you all do (or just any ideas you all have) for calming down and finally getting to sleep from amphetamines.



    Generally I still have trouble getting to sleep even about 15-18 hours after last orally taking any instant release amphetamine. So, I need some suggestions.



    Things I've already tried and their results and/or notes to go along with them:



    1. Taking amphetamine earlier in the day or taking less of it:

    -This is obvious so please don't suggest this. Assume when you're answering the question that this cannot/is not done. I am already aware of this as a solution or suggestion.



    2. Eating Food:

    This helps a ton and I eat a good amount or at least force myself to with milkshakes during the amphetamine experience. At the end of it, food definitely does help to calm me down a ton and I do eat a ton of it at once in an attempt to spike my blood sugar and then make it fall...lol.

    Please don't suggest this - it is an obvious given and I already eat food anyway.



    3. Hot Shower:

    This does help, but only so much. It is also an obvious given.



    4. Valerian root, inositol, l-tryptophan, 5-htp, melatonin, ZMA, etc.:

    -I tried these and I believe they help to some extent, but they simply don't seem to be powerful enough. Regardless, I still take them and pretty good doses of them too. Rhodiola rosea doesn't do jack for me either.



    5. Kava Kava:

    I've tried this. I've tried a variety of brands - some being really expensive and claiming to be the "most pure" ever. This has only ever affected me just a little.



    6. Phenibut:

    I took this once a long time ago. I have NEVER been that dizzy/fucked-up/drunk-like before. I feel more drunk (without the euphoria and lack of cognition) on a little bit of Phenibut than I ever have on alcohol. Phenibut fucks up my inner ear function or something for a LONG time - I hate this stuff - out of the question. Don't suggest this.



    7. Anticholinergenics such as doxylamine succinate or diphenhydramine:

    I was doing this in the past with O.K. results. I'd fall asleep and get a good amount of sleep. However, I felt like my sleep quality was lower and I felt a bit trippy alot of the time. Additionally, I recently had an incredibly bad experience with anticholinergenics. In short, I'm never taking any again. So this is out of the question. Please do not suggest cyproheptadine either - it's an anticholinergenic.



    8. Clonidine:

    I tried this. It didn't really affect me much at all besides makes me feel a bit weird. I also ended up having a terrible experience with it recently. This option is out.



    9. Ambien (Zolpidem):

    I've used this before in the past when I had some severe jet lag when coming back from Asia.

    I have not tried this with amphetamine - but I do know that whenever I took it I would sleep then wake up like 5 hours later - this sucked. Sleep was of O.K. quality, but not great. Also, it makes me trip a bit when I take it - I already experience a bit of that from the Memantine (10mg-15mg daily) that I take for it's supposed amphetamine tolerance (see my other long thread)...so I do want to avoid that a bit.



    As I said, I havn't tried Ambien yet, so perhaps I should but I'm pretty sure I won't sleep for long (or maybe I will?).



    10. Alcohol and/or Marijuana:

    These do work actually - especially if I combine them. Marijuana isn't too good on its own though as I tend to just feel really weird plus it's illegal and a bit hard to get for me. Alcohol works, but it also disrupts my sleep architecture and I end up either feeling hungover or like I got shitty sleep the next day.



    11. Benzodiazapenes:

    Valium - this worked well, but the half life was way way too long. It is 20–100 hours (36-200 hours for main active metabolite - according to wikipedia at least.



    Temazepam (Restoril) - This is what I'm currently using after a doctor prescribed me 10 15mg pills. This is literally the PERFECT thing to take for me so far that I've found. I calm down, get sleepy, go to sleep, stay asleep, get great sleep, and wake up feeling very refreshed. In fact, I've never even gotten sleep this well before that I can remember. The half life is 8-20 hours and I don't feel hungover the next day - it's great stuff. There's one big problem though - it's a benzodiazapene. This means that I have to deal with the following obvious negative things that come along with it:



    -I'll develop a tolerance quickly. I'm already beginning to and I only take it about once every other night (I take anywhere from 20-25mg per sleep session currently - I split the pills apart).

    -I could potentially go through some nasty withdrawals.

    -Benzodiazapenes are incredibly addictive. This isn't good, especially when I'm already taking amphetamines.

    -I could easily end up fully relying on it to get to sleep even when amphetamine isn't in my system - this is also very bad.

    -It's very difficult to get - especially a high quality american brand.



    Temazepam is a great short term solution for now. But I can't rely on it for long - I'm about to run out anyway.



    ==============================================



    So, I'm not sure what to do.



    Will run out of Temazepam soon and it has its obvious downsides as I listed.



    I know another member of this forum uses GBL and that "gives them a great euphoria" and probably helps to calm them down quite a bit. GBL is quite difficult for me to get in the US, plus its quite illegal too - and probably shares some similar downsides as Temazepam anyway - however, I am not sure as I've never had it....perhaps it would be a worthwhile solution.



    I'm also thinking something like Flexeril (Cyclobenzaprine). I've taken that in the past when it was prescribed for back problems I was having. It really just made me go to sleep though...and for quite a while. It seems to last quite a while for me though and makes me feel kind of tired the next day. Then again I can get it and it's not as addictive as benzos.



    I tried some Gabapentin once in the past but it really wasn't that sedating. I just felt more "drunk". It didn't really have that great of an effect on me.



    Many times I will also drink pure 100% cranberry juice (a whole freaking bottle of it) in order to try to get any amp out of my system. Seems to help a bit.



    I did a bit of research on this forum and noticed a few people mentioning:

    -Bacopa

    -Holy Basil

    -Ashwaganda



    I've tried ashwaganda before. It didn't do anything for me.



    I have not tried Bacopa or Holy Basil though - so perhaps I will check those out.



    Then again, I really almost never feel anything from herbal supplements.





    Anyone have any suggestions/comments? I need some help here!
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    I get bugged the hell out and can not sleep if I smoke any weed. I used to love it when I was a kid. Always had a good time laughed and all that, but now that I am older with wife/kids/work/ and all that when ever I get high I just get bugged out. Start to think about stuff and worry about any and everything one could worry about.. Its so weird how the experience of it all has changed so much for me. I get high and I will stay up 2 days str8 worring about shit lmao... Now if I need to get to sleep quick I take a few Need2sleep and I am out like a light. %-htp,Melatonin, and Valerain root all in the right amounts can get almost any one to a deep sleep quick.. I used to take seroquel but always woke up feeling like I got ran over by a truck. I also noticed that I had to use more, and more, and more of it each time. I hate that about most drugs....

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    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Cyproheptadine?

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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    and probably shares some similar downsides as Temazepam anyway
    Not at all.



    But one question, doesnt your NMDA antagonist prevent tolerance to the sedative effects of benzo's?
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    i've use a high-dose of bacopa successfully for calming down after an adderall crash.

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    Senior Member Taal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needtogetaas View Post
    I get bugged the hell out and can not sleep if I smoke any weed. I used to love it when I was a kid. Always had a good time laughed and all that, but now that I am older with wife/kids/work/ and all that when ever I get high I just get bugged out. Start to think about stuff and worry about any and everything one could worry about.. Its so weird how the experience of it all has changed so much for me. I get high and I will stay up 2 days str8 worring about shit lmao... Now if I need to get to sleep quick I take a few Need2sleep and I am out like a light. %-htp,Melatonin, and Valerain root all in the right amounts can get almost any one to a deep sleep quick.. I used to take seroquel but always woke up feeling like I got ran over by a truck. I also noticed that I had to use more, and more, and more of it each time. I hate that about most drugs....


    I know, same thing with the weed thing here. What is "Need2sleep"? Yeah, 5-htp, melatonin, and valerian root don't do much for me. Interesting you took seroquel, an antipsychotic. Don't know if I want to play around with antipsychotics though



    Quote Originally Posted by kassem23 View Post
    Cyproheptadine?


    Anticholinergenics = bad for me. See the original post:

    7. Anticholinergenics such as doxylamine succinate or diphenhydramine:

    I was doing this in the past with O.K. results. I'd fall asleep and get a good amount of sleep. However, I felt like my sleep quality was lower and I felt a bit trippy alot of the time. Additionally, I recently had an incredibly bad experience with anticholinergenics. In short, I'm never taking any again. So this is out of the question. Please do not suggest cyproheptadine either - it's an anticholinergenic.


    Thanks anyway though



    Quote Originally Posted by MeDieViL View Post
    Not at all.



    But one question, doesnt your NMDA antagonist prevent tolerance to the sedative effects of benzo's?


    In regards to
    Not at all.


    Hmmmmmm, I guess with GBL I'm just a little scared to try it...let alone attempt to acquire it in the US somehow, heh. Especially after I posted this thread on the internet . So you're saying it's not really that addictive and you don't develop a tolerance to it? I mean, if it metabolizes into GHB in the body, I feel like it would end up being quite addictive. Then again, most of the horror stories about GHB I read were when people weren't taking it just to get to sleep.



    How long have you been using GBL...does it let you sleep if you want to/calm you down?



    I guess I'm just afraid to open that door, heh. Already opened so many...



    ==========



    In regards to:

    But one question, doesnt your NMDA antagonist prevent tolerance to the sedative effects of benzo's?




    Actually, you're right according to alot of those studies both you and I found. Also, I found some on pregnenolone doing that as well. In fact I think its more substantiated that the NMDA antagonists prevent tolerance to the desired user effects of benzos in comparison to amphetamine. I posted those in that other thread too.



    I guess the tolerance isn't really the biggest thing I'm worried about. It's mostly that I'd be taking benzos AND amphetamines quite often....hrmmm. Also, it a bit difficult for me to acquire again...hrmmm...
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Taal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csrpj View Post
    i've use a high-dose of bacopa successfully for calming down after an adderall crash.


    I really guess that is the next thing for me to try.



    Do you have a specific brand that you use? I've found that brand plays a big difference when dealing with herbal supplements.



    Also how much exactly is "high-dose"?
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    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taal View Post
    Anticholinergenics = bad for me. See the original post:


    Sorry about that. I just thought cyproheptadine could be a viable choice, since this one actually increases sleep quality.



    Also, what about a shot or two of some vodka? That may be able to affect you enough to give you a nice and calm sleep. Remember, one or two glasses of red-wine has been shown to improve longevity, not reduce it. So maybe red wine is a better alternative, actually, heh.

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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    High dose taurine on an empty stomach? I'm talking 10-20g.


    If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.

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    Senior Member Taal's Avatar
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    A small bit of alcohol may help, I just hate drinking it I feel like it poison. But yeah red wine does have some good stuff in it and I probably do need some resveratrol for my heart after enduring the torture I'm putting my body contiuously through, heh. Thank you for your input though. I still have yet to try cyptroheptadine actually...it's just that anticholinergenics scare me alot after an episode heh...also its not OTC in the US





    Kimbo I do actually already take about 2-3 grams of acamprosate during these times and it does seem to help a bit to relax me, but sometimes it also kind I stimulates me - acamprosate does have some nmda antagonism properties which I'm sure you've read a bit about in regards to drug tolerance around the forum...so it could also reactivate the amphetamine...which is actually what I do use it for heh - and yes it does work well.



    only reason I'm bringing all this up is because Acamprosate is taurine that is able to cross the blood brain barrier - it's "homo-taurine".



    Then again, it IS different than "l-taurine". Your suggestion does intrigue me alot so I'm probably going to order a crapton of taurine now.



    I'm assuming you've megadoses it before, how often have you done that, how well did it seem to work for you, and have you used it to calm yourself down before on any drugs like amphetamine? you just use "l-taurine" and not some other form, right?



    very curious about this as if that works it'd be exactly the solution I was looking for - nice and natural.



    really looking forward to your response on this as I've read some posts by you about the taurine stuff before
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    Try a beta blocker like propranolol.

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    Senior Member Kimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taal View Post
    A small bit of alcohol may help, I just hate drinking it I feel like it poison. But yeah red wine does have some good stuff in it and I probably do need some resveratrol for my heart after enduring the torture I'm putting my body contiuously through, heh. Thank you for your input though. I still have yet to try cyptroheptadine actually...it's just that anticholinergenics scare me alot after an episode heh...also its not OTC in the US





    Kimbo I do actually already take about 2-3 grams of acamprosate during these times and it does seem to help a bit to relax me, but sometimes it also kind I stimulates me - acamprosate does have some nmda antagonism properties which I'm sure you've read a bit about in regards to drug tolerance around the forum...so it could also reactivate the amphetamine...which is actually what I do use it for heh - and yes it does work well.



    only reason I'm bringing all this up is because Acamprosate is taurine that is able to cross the blood brain barrier - it's "homo-taurine".



    Then again, it IS different than "l-taurine". Your suggestion does intrigue me alot so I'm probably going to order a crapton of taurine now.



    I'm assuming you've megadoses it before, how often have you done that, how well did it seem to work for you, and have you used it to calm yourself down before on any drugs like amphetamine? you just use "l-taurine" and not some other form, right?



    very curious about this as if that works it'd be exactly the solution I was looking for - nice and natural.



    really looking forward to your response on this as I've read some posts by you about the taurine stuff before


    Taurine is my go-to supplement for relaxation, either when I am anxious, too jacked up on stimulants, or after a particularly intensive workout. I've never actually used it to calm down from amphetamines, but since it has worked well for me in those other cases I figured I should suggest it. I often had problems sleeping after really intensive Olympic lifting workouts, and high dose taurine post-workout and/or before bed really helped me chill out and get to sleep. As an added bonus, I often have to get up several times a night to take a piss because of consuming too much liquid in the evenings, and taurine helps mitigate this.


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    Switch to vyvanse (d-amphetamine) or desoxyn(methamphetamine) if possible. Both are much easier to stay calm and sleep on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taal View Post
    I really guess that is the next thing for me to try.



    Do you have a specific brand that you use? I've found that brand plays a big difference when dealing with herbal supplements.



    Also how much exactly is "high-dose"?


    hey taal.



    i used Planetary Herbals brand.



    i took 810mg (20% A+B of 4050mg) and felt relaxed (versus insanely, and i mean insanely, anxious). two hours later, i took another 810mg and very deeply relaxed, and felt i was on a very high level of consciousness.

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    Senior Member kassem23's Avatar
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    Remind me. The reason you've been prescribed amphetamine is for ADHD, right? If so, have you ever tried using amphetamine without the NMDA antagonism? I am just thinking that many of your side-effects will go away if you stop the NMDA antagonism.



    At least, all the pro-energetic feelings of amphetamine tend to abate after a couple of weeks use (due to down-regulation of receptor D2 and D3, as I recall) so, treatment-wise, you have to weigh costs and benefits from your current treatment regime.



    If you see fit that NMDA antagonism is indeed required, finding a viable way to get decent sleep is indeed necessary, but if not, many of your problems may well dissapear with chronic amphetamine treatment. I even recall Frangible saying that chronic amphetamine treatment increases sleep quality in ADHD subjects due to a reduction in RLS during sleep, and a normalizing effect from the daily cortisol rise, and fall during the evening, controlling melatonin response, and what not.



    In conclusion, my point is that The Whole Amphetamine Experience™, may not be for you in the long-term.

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    Senior Member Tussmann's Avatar
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    What mg range of AMPH are you taking? When sleep became an issue with me, I simply tapered my AMPH dosage down and used alternative stimulants like caffeine if I needed an energy boost later on in the day.



    Also, try L-Glycine. There's a thread on it somewhere around here. I've recently bought some and it has definitely helped my time-to-sleep onset once I actually get in bed with the lights out. Plus, L-glycine doesn't have negative consequences in regards to sleep architecture and has been studied in up to 9 gram dosages.





    If I'm really needed to hit the hay, my knockout formula is the following:



    -Valerian Root (I like Swanson's superior herb extract)

    -1.5 mg of Melatonin

    -6-10 grams of Taurine & 3-6 grams of L-glycine in a protein shake



    + if I'm really fucked - 1 or 2 beers and/or 12.5 mg of benadryl (yeah you might not be keen on this one, but low doses can really do the job while avoiding the hangovers)



    Also Kimbo, your quote: "If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true," is awesome.

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    Yes, this is a problem for many. To the OP, if you don't mind my asking, how much amphetamine are you prescribed to take daily? I'm kind of curious, I take 60mg/day and definitely experience this. I've actually found muscle relaxants to be the most helpful when trying to "calm down and get some sleep" after a day of amphetamine use. Baclofen and cyclobenzaprine work very well - they help in the transition from productive bordering on edgy to a relaxed, peaceful state of mind.
    "When men are most sure and arrogant they are commonly most mistaken, giving views to passion without that proper deliberation which alone can secure them from the grossest absurdities." - David Hume

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    Senior Member DavidWebb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobM View Post
    Try a beta blocker like propranolol.


    beta blockers decrease melatonin.



    OP: try a tiny bit of lithium orotate. you might be pleasantly surprised.

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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    20 mg haldol IM.
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    Senior Member Taal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobM View Post
    Try a beta blocker like propranolol.


    Ehhh Ill admit I havn't tried beta blockers - but looking for something a bit different. Do they tend to make you sleepy/calm down?



    Quote Originally Posted by csrpj View Post
    hey taal.



    i used Planetary Herbals brand.



    i took 810mg (20% A+B of 4050mg) and felt relaxed (versus insanely, and i mean insanely, anxious). two hours later, i took another 810mg and very deeply relaxed, and felt i was on a very high level of consciousness.


    Nice, I'll try to find that. Thanks.



    Quote Originally Posted by kassem23 View Post
    Remind me. The reason you've been prescribed amphetamine is for ADHD, right? If so, have you ever tried using amphetamine without the NMDA antagonism? I am just thinking that many of your side-effects will go away if you stop the NMDA antagonism.



    At least, all the pro-energetic feelings of amphetamine tend to abate after a couple of weeks use (due to down-regulation of receptor D2 and D3, as I recall) so, treatment-wise, you have to weigh costs and benefits from your current treatment regime.



    If you see fit that NMDA antagonism is indeed required, finding a viable way to get decent sleep is indeed necessary, but if not, many of your problems may well dissapear with chronic amphetamine treatment. I even recall Frangible saying that chronic amphetamine treatment increases sleep quality in ADHD subjects due to a reduction in RLS during sleep, and a normalizing effect from the daily cortisol rise, and fall during the evening, controlling melatonin response, and what not.



    In conclusion, my point is that The Whole Amphetamine Experience™, may not be for you in the long-term.


    Yeah, but without the NMDA antagonism I don't really get the effects I want as well as crash pretty severely and quickly most of the time. For now, I don't really plan on living this way long term - I'm just trying to get my financial situation in order at the moment - it's a bit crazy. Interesting though that chronic amphetamine treatment does increase sleep quality. For the record, I'm really not sure if (in my opinion) I have ADHD - in fact, there's probably a good chance that I don't. I really need it for the therapeutic motivational effects that allow me to focus only on computer work and not think about going out and doing stuff with friends, etc. at the moment. I've been able to generally keep those with my NMDA antagonism stack and amphetamine.



    Guess I have to take the good with the bad then - that's why I'm trying to figure out a solution to the sleep thing here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tussmann View Post
    What mg range of AMPH are you taking? When sleep became an issue with me, I simply tapered my AMPH dosage down and used alternative stimulants like caffeine if I needed an energy boost later on in the day.



    Also, try L-Glycine. There's a thread on it somewhere around here. I've recently bought some and it has definitely helped my time-to-sleep onset once I actually get in bed with the lights out. Plus, L-glycine doesn't have negative consequences in regards to sleep architecture and has been studied in up to 9 gram dosages.



    If I'm really needed to hit the hay, my knockout formula is the following:



    -Valerian Root (I like Swanson's superior herb extract)

    -1.5 mg of Melatonin

    -6-10 grams of Taurine & 3-6 grams of L-glycine in a protein shake



    + if I'm really fucked - 1 or 2 beers and/or 12.5 mg of benadryl (yeah you might not be keen on this one, but low doses can really do the job while avoiding the hangovers)



    Also Kimbo, your quote: "If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true," is awesome.


    I'll try mega-dosing with valerian and perhaps I should try a better brand as you suggested. Will try the l-glycine suggestion too and +1 for the taurine megadosing.





    Quote Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
    Yes, this is a problem for many. To the OP, if you don't mind my asking, how much amphetamine are you prescribed to take daily? I'm kind of curious, I take 60mg/day and definitely experience this. I've actually found muscle relaxants to be the most helpful when trying to "calm down and get some sleep" after a day of amphetamine use. Baclofen and cyclobenzaprine work very well - they help in the transition from productive bordering on edgy to a relaxed, peaceful state of mind.


    I take about 60mg per day session. It is instant release adderall. Most of the time I'll end up resdosing 60mg later. This ends up to about 25 hour work sessions lol - I've done this frequently. However, I usually try to get to sleep about 15 hours or so after the last redose (I know the math isnt exact there - they are approximates). It shouldn't be affecting me at that time I would suppose.



    I'm glad you've noted you're experience on cyclobenzaprine as I put that up as a suggestion in my OP. It's worked well for me before and easy to get - perhaps I should try that - it seems like a good solution. Do you recall it's mechanism of action for the calming effect exactly? It doesn't involve any anticholinergenicism or antihistimate perhaps does it?



    Quote Originally Posted by DavidWebb View Post
    beta blockers decrease melatonin.



    OP: try a tiny bit of lithium orotate. you might be pleasantly surprised.


    Never heard of lithium orotate, where would I get that. On the wikipedia page there is a big warning in all caps (quite weird) though, ha. It says on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_orotate



    "[NOTE FROM A PHARMACOLOGIST - LITHIUM IS EXTREMELY TOXIC IN DOSES ONLY SLIGHTLY HIGHER THAN THOSE REQUIRED TO OBTAIN A THERAPEUTIC EFFECT! SELF-MEDICATION WITH ANY LITHIUM SALT IS VERY DANGEROUS AND COULD EASILY KILL YOU.]"



    Then again, the accuracy of wikipedia can be questioned. Not sure what to make of that.



    Quote Originally Posted by MeDieViL' timestamp='1302270485' post='657084

    20 mg haldol IM.


    Pfft antipsychotics!





    Switch to vyvanse (d-amphetamine) or desoxyn(methamphetamine) if possible. Both are much easier to stay calm and sleep on.


    I've tried vyvanse - it lasts too long in my system - I feel like something more instant releasing with a shorter half life would work better. Vyvanse is L-lysine-D-amphetamine - it slowly releases in one's stomach. Although you probably already knew that. I think desoxyn would also have a very long half life - also I'd probably have difficulty getting my doctor to prescribe it lol.
    America, Fuck Yeah.

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