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    hi everyone. i am new here. i have a lack of ACTH coming from the pituitary gland. Which does not send the signal to my adrenals to make cortisol. Therefore i cannot handle any stress literaly, thryoid meds don't work because I don't have the cortisol to get the thyroid into my cells etc. They put me on a steroid (hydrocortisone) way back. Well, i did the research and steroids bind to gaba receptors. When the two meet, I cannot even describe what i went through. I take a anti anxiety med. I thought I was going to die. So I absolutely cannot take any steroids in any form at all. Even the people who are trying to come off of benzo's have been hit by a steroid unknowingly, and their symptoms came back. I have done some research on cdp choline and everyone website including pub med claims that this raises ACTH. out of desperation, i ordered it. But have not taken it. I'm wondering if someone can shed some light on my question. if this does raise my ACTH, will it do it naturally, or will the ACTH start causing problems with my receptors again.

    i realize that ACTH is a hormone, but when I was injected with it for a test which i failed, it made me feel very strange mixed with the klonopin. it's seems to be all about receptors. I have tried to do research if aceylcholine binds to gaba or steroid receptors and really can't undertand what they are saying. I feel like I'm dying everyday, but it this binds to my receptors again, I probably will die for what it did to me. i stopped the HC, I had to it was driving me out of my mind, and have just been existing. I can't go through another steroid detox. Yes, i literally detoxed from the steroid because it kept clinging on the the receptor. 4 months later it finally let go. i hope someone understands my question.



    Thank you,

    Mamie

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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    hi everyone. i am new here. i have a lack of ACTH coming from the pituitary gland. Which does not send the signal to my adrenals to make cortisol. Therefore i cannot handle any stress literaly, thryoid meds don't work because I don't have the cortisol to get the thyroid into my cells etc.


    What were your 8 AM ACTH levels? Is your condition idiopathic (of unknown origin) or due to a specific pathology?




    They put me on a steroid (hydrocortisone) way back. Well, i did the research and steroids bind to gaba receptors. When the two meet, I cannot even describe what i went through. I take a anti anxiety med. I thought I was going to die. So I absolutely cannot take any steroids in any form at all. Even the people who are trying to come off of benzo's have been hit by a steroid unknowingly, and their symptoms came back.


    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, but this simply isn't the case. Hydrocortisone is the appropriate therapy if you legitimately have a defect in pituitary (or hypothalamic) ACTH release. I'd like to see evidence that corticosteroids bind to the GR, but regardless, if you found hydrocortisone therapy objectionable, I suspect it was not coordinated appropriately. There should not be a particularly potent interaction with benzodiazepines, and corticosteroid therapy is not likely to interact with withdrawal.




    I have done some research on cdp choline and everyone website including pub med claims that this raises ACTH. out of desperation, i ordered it. But have not taken it. I'm wondering if someone can shed some light on my question. if this does raise my ACTH, will it do it naturally, or will the ACTH start causing problems with my receptors again.


    CDP-choline raises ACTH in healthy humans, but you apparently have a defect in ACTH production, which means CDP-choline may act differentially depending on the root cause of your problems. The last question doesn't make sense, because there is no such distinction between "naturally" raising ACTH and "artificially" raising ACTH.




    i realize that ACTH is a hormone, but when I was injected with it for a test which i failed, it made me feel very strange mixed with the klonopin. it's seems to be all about receptors. I have tried to do research if aceylcholine binds to gaba or steroid receptors and really can't undertand what they are saying. I feel like I'm dying everyday, but it this binds to my receptors again, I probably will die for what it did to me. i stopped the HC, I had to it was driving me out of my mind, and have just been existing. I can't go through another steroid detox. Yes, i literally detoxed from the steroid because it kept clinging on the the receptor. 4 months later it finally let go. i hope someone understands my question.


    Sure, it's all about receptors in the sense that all hormones and neurotransmitters work through receptors, but that's not a very specific criterion. ACh (acetylcholine) does not bind to the GR (glucocorticoid receptor) and does not bind to GABA receptors. It does induce activity in the HPA at the level of the hypothalamus, and this is why it induces ACTH release in healthy humans.



    Steroid (more precisely, corticosteroid) withdrawal has nothing to do with "clinging" to the receptor and is rather a product of the downregulation of natural cortisol production that ensues when artificial hydrocortisone therapy is applied. But yes, typically withdrawing from corticosteroids taken for a long duration is not pleasant.



    The short answer is that we need more information about the details of your condition to be able to advise you on CDP-choline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    What were your 8 AM ACTH levels? Is your condition idiopathic (of unknown origin) or due to a specific pathology?







    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, but this simply isn't the case. Hydrocortisone is the appropriate therapy if you legitimately have a defect in pituitary (or hypothalamic) ACTH release. I'd like to see evidence that corticosteroids bind to the GR, but regardless, if you found hydrocortisone therapy objectionable, I suspect it was not coordinated appropriately. There should not be a particularly potent interaction with benzodiazepines, and corticosteroid therapy is not likely to interact with withdrawal.







    CDP-choline raises ACTH in healthy humans, but you apparently have a defect in ACTH production, which means CDP-choline may act differentially depending on the root cause of your problems. The last question doesn't make sense, because there is no such distinction between "naturally" raising ACTH and "artificially" raising ACTH.







    Sure, it's all about receptors in the sense that all hormones and neurotransmitters work through receptors, but that's not a very specific criterion. ACh (acetylcholine) does not bind to the GR (glucocorticoid receptor) and does not bind to GABA receptors. It does induce activity in the HPA at the level of the hypothalamus, and this is why it induces ACTH release in healthy humans.



    Steroid (more precisely, corticosteroid) withdrawal has nothing to do with "clinging" to the receptor and is rather a product of the downregulation of natural cortisol production that ensues when artificial hydrocortisone therapy is applied. But yes, typically withdrawing from corticosteroids taken for a long duration is not pleasant.



    The short answer is that we need more information about the details of your condition to be able to advise you on CDP-choline.




    Hi balls and thank you for commenting.

    First off let me say that steroids bind to gaba receptors. I went through hell while i was on them. i finally figured this out not only by my symptoms, but after i learned to put the right words in the engine. When I stopped the HC the symptoms went away. This tells me something also.



    i have had baseline ACTH three of them come back <5, 8, 13, and 23. Your ACTH is probably 45 or 50. Even 23 is not enough to get my cortisol going. HC will make ACTH non existent to begin with. I have has nothing higher than a 6 in the morning of cortisol.

    from everything I read, when you mention healthy humans, it does not state that anywhere. in fact, if people who have high ACTH should not take cdp choline because it would make the condition worse and worsening the hypercortisolism. so if people who have a health ACTH, I would think it would even raise it. These are just my thoughts.



    So in my case and my brains receptors, steroids bind to gaba receptors. Symptoms tell the whole story. especially when I stopped it. I went through anxiety and paced my floors for 8 or 9 hours a day when HC was in me. Anxiety in the bones. Strange thoughts, heart pounding so hard thought it was going to fly out the window. and so much more. All of the stopped when I titrated down HC. Its very clear that they bind.

    on my benzo forum, i was not the only one that got struck with a steroid, and all of there symptoms came back. I realize there is more than one gaba receptor, and it hit me really bad. It did cling to my gaba receptor for four months until it let go. finally. i also took progesterone which is supposed to be calming. same thing. progesterone is a steroid.

    so doctors are telling me that I have this conditon, and then others don't. Because i'm in range. NOT. <5 is not in range. But when i was injected with it, yes my number came up. Of course they did. i was ingected with something I needed. But before i was injected, my level was <5.

    So my adrenals do work if they have the signal coming from the brain. IT was coordinated appropriately. Even 2.5 mgs. I would react like that.

    very strange except that they bind.



    I have not found anything about the cdp binding except on pubmed, that my anxiety meds might not work as much as needed. I am just desperate to get the ACTH up. People have suggested ginseng.. All of these herbs have triterpene, saponins, they are all steroidal. Even tried black cohosh.

    it bound to the gaba recector. same feelings. estrogen. phytoestrogen, but still they bind.

    I woke up one morning and went to the bathroom, and had this overwhelming more than fatigue sensation. I thought it was hormones, so i went to a doc and he did a random cortisol check on me. it came back 3. So I went to a endo, and he found out it was coming from the pit gland.



    I'm doomed.

    Thank you for your response.

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    In that case you should just take GABA, which will then bind to your steroid receptors, reverse your ACTH, and cause a rebound of your cortisol. Or not.



    I think you're better off leaving this to your doctors. And no, CDP-choline is not gonna help anything here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adreno View Post
    In that case you should just take GABA, which will then bind to your steroid receptors, reverse your ACTH, and cause a rebound of your cortisol. Or not.



    I think you're better off leaving this to your doctors. And no, CDP-choline is not gonna help anything here.


    No doctor has yet to help. why do you think the cdp choline would not help? gaba supplements do not cross the BBB.



    Thanks..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    Hi balls and thank you for commenting.

    First off let me say that steroids bind to gaba receptors. I went through hell while i was on them. i finally figured this out not only by my symptoms, but after i learned to put the right words in the engine. When I stopped the HC the symptoms went away. This tells me something also.


    Unless you have a reference, I simply don't believe your assertion that steroids -- I presume you mean corticosteroids -- bind to GABA receptors. I've never seen so much as an allusion to that claim in a decade of reading medical literature.



    Instead of telling me that you "went through hell", why don't you tell my what corticosteroids you took (hydrocortisone, right?), at what dose, with what dosing pattern, and for how long. Then we can talk.



    Yes, taking corticosteroids can cause side effects, but not typically anything like you describe.




    i have had baseline ACTH three of them come back <5, 8, 13, and 23. Your ACTH is probably 45 or 50. Even 23 is not enough to get my cortisol going. HC will make ACTH non existent to begin with. I have has nothing higher than a 6 in the morning of cortisol.

    from everything I read, when you mention healthy humans, it does not state that anywhere. in fact, if people who have high ACTH should not take cdp choline because it would make the condition worse and worsening the hypercortisolism. so if people who have a health ACTH, I would think it would even raise it. These are just my thoughts.


    Were those ACTH blood tests done in the morning? Were they done when you were or when you were not taking hydrocortisone? Typically 20-100 pg/mL is considered acceptable, but that range only applies to ACTH drawn in the morning, in a fasted state. Anything taken from the afternoon would be lower. And of course hydrocortisone reduces ACTH production, it is expected to do so and this is normal.



    As to the second part, yes the idea is that CDP-choline raises ACTH via actions in the hypothalamus. However, if you are not producing sufficient ACTH, there is either a problem with your pituitary or a problem with your hypothalamus. In either case, depending on the type of problem, the mechanism by which CDP-choline induces ACTH release may be essentially broken. Without knowing the cause of your condition, I can neither confirm nor deny this.




    So in my case and my brains receptors, steroids bind to gaba receptors. Symptoms tell the whole story. especially when I stopped it. I went through anxiety and paced my floors for 8 or 9 hours a day when HC was in me. Anxiety in the bones. Strange thoughts, heart pounding so hard thought it was going to fly out the window. and so much more. All of the stopped when I titrated down HC. Its very clear that they bind.


    Yeah, they don't bind to GABA receptors. Your symptoms indicate that something is wrong to be sure, but this is hardly proof of anything relating to a specific receptor or subtype.



    Regardless, I ask again: how much HC? What dosing pattern? How long? What other drugs were you taking at the same time?




    on my benzo forum, i was not the only one that got struck with a steroid, and all of there symptoms came back. I realize there is more than one gaba receptor, and it hit me really bad. It did cling to my gaba receptor for four months until it let go. finally. i also took progesterone which is supposed to be calming. same thing. progesterone is a steroid.


    You experienced withdrawal, not "clinging". Steroids clear your body in a matter of hours or days, but withdrawal -- if you've taken them for a long time -- can last months.



    Progesterone is a steroid, but not a corticosteroid. Progesterone and hydrocortisone are completely different.




    so doctors are telling me that I have this conditon, and then others don't. Because i'm in range. NOT. <5 is not in range. But when i was injected with it, yes my number came up. Of course they did. i was ingected with something I needed. But before i was injected, my level was <5.

    So my adrenals do work if they have the signal coming from the brain. IT was coordinated appropriately. Even 2.5 mgs. I would react like that.

    very strange except that they bind.


    What the hell are you talking about? What was injected and when? When, at what time of day, under what circumstances, did you have an ACTH of 5 pg/mL?




    I have not found anything about the cdp binding except on pubmed, that my anxiety meds might not work as much as needed. I am just desperate to get the ACTH up. People have suggested ginseng.. All of these herbs have triterpene, saponins, they are all steroidal. Even tried black cohosh.

    it bound to the gaba recector. same feelings. estrogen. phytoestrogen, but still they bind.

    I woke up one morning and went to the bathroom, and had this overwhelming more than fatigue sensation. I thought it was hormones, so i went to a doc and he did a random cortisol heck on me. it came back 3. So I went to a endo, and he found out it was coming from the pit gland.


    Again, you have dozens of different molecules that are steroids in your body right now. The problem isn't steroids -- which is an incredibly diverse class of molecules -- but rather corticosteroids, which are compounds that bind to the GR (glucocorticoid receptor).



    I'm trying to help you out here, but we need specifics as I said before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    Unless you have a reference, I simply don't believe your assertion that steroids -- I presume you mean corticosteroids -- bind to GABA receptors. I've never seen so much as an allusion to that claim in a decade of reading medical literature.



    Instead of telling me that you "went through hell", why don't you tell my what corticosteroids you took (hydrocortisone, right?), at what dose, with what dosing pattern, and for how long. Then we can talk.



    Yes, taking corticosteroids can cause side effects, but not typically anything like you describe.







    Were those ACTH blood tests done in the morning? Were they done when you were or when you were not taking hydrocortisone? Typically 20-100 pg/mL is considered acceptable, but that range only applies to ACTH drawn in the morning, in a fasted state. Anything taken from the afternoon would be lower. And of course hydrocortisone reduces ACTH production, it is expected to do so and this is normal.



    As to the second part, yes the idea is that CDP-choline raises ACTH via actions in the hypothalamus. However, if you are not producing sufficient ACTH, there is either a problem with your pituitary or a problem with your hypothalamus. In either case, depending on the type of problem, the mechanism by which CDP-choline induces ACTH release may be essentially broken. Without knowing the cause of your condition, I can neither confirm nor deny this.







    Yeah, they don't bind to GABA receptors. Your symptoms indicate that something is wrong to be sure, but this is hardly proof of anything relating to a specific receptor or subtype.



    Regardless, I ask again: how much HC? What dosing pattern? How long? What other drugs were you taking at the same time?







    You experienced withdrawal, not "clinging". Steroids clear your body in a matter of hours or days, but withdrawal -- if you've taken them for a long time -- can last months.



    Progesterone is a steroid, but not a corticosteroid. Progesterone and hydrocortisone are completely different.







    What the hell are you talking about? What was injected and when? When, at what time of day, under what circumstances, did you have an ACTH of 5 pg/mL?







    Again, you have dozens of different molecules that are steroids in your body right now. The problem isn't steroids -- which is an incredibly diverse class of molecules -- but rather corticosteroids, which are compounds that bind to the GR (glucocorticoid receptor).



    I'm trying to help you out here, but we need specifics as I said before.
    Thanks for trying to help me out.

    I know everything you are saying but unless you have the disease, or have gone through I have then you don't understand.

    the only other drug i was taking was levoxyl and Klonopin. Levoxyl and Klonopin don't interact. Steroids of ANY type interfere with gaba receptors. All of the ACTH was drawn early in the morning fasting.



    It's called a ACTH stimulation test. that's what I am talking about. They inject you with ACTH and then draw your blood 30 minutes and 60 minutes later. Before they draw the blood the first draw ACTH which on both stim tests, mine came back <5. THEN when they inject you with ACTH your numbers go up. well of course my numbers went up. I was injected with something i needed. I explained this in one of my posts. Sorry if you did not understand. THe klonopin and the hydrocortisone interacted so badly. obviously, because when i stopped the HC, the symptoms went away. Steroids bind to gaba receptors. unless you take benzo's, you would not understand. So, yes i have a hpa axis problem. I cannot feel my cortisol rising to meet any occasion. unless you don't have this disease, you take that for granted. like i did before i got it.

    I have no adrenaline to fight or fight. can't handle stress. When I stopped the hc, I went through several withdrawl. i took them for 6 months.

    And then they hit. the highest i ever took was 17.5 mgs and the lowest was 2.5 which 2.5 did the same thing to me. i remember on a thyroid forum where a girl wrote if you take steroids with a benzo it will wreak havoc on your life. Then i thought I would start researching. But I was already having symptoms before this.



    In time of stress, my cortisol does not rise. in times of happiness my cortisol does not rise. When you lose this, you KNOW it. When you have it you really don't know. you get into a stessful situation, and your cortisol rises to be able to handle that. then after all is said and done it slowly goes back down. and your good to go. I cannot take any kind of a steroid being a corticosteroid, progesterone, anything of the like. And yes i know the difference between the two. I suppose i came to the wrong place except for ya'll to say that CDP choline won't raise my ACTH levels. But I'm not quite sure why that is. you would know if you had the disease.

    I hope I have explained myself better. But just want to know why cdp choline won't help in your opinion if it says that what it does. It should not be taken at all with people who have a different type of HPA axis problem either where there ACTH is to high. but that is getting into cushing's and off the subject. noboby will tell me any different that the two drugs interact. Been there. But people don't undertand unless they have been there too.



    A girl got partially electricuted who was titrating from benzo's. doctor gave her prednisone to protect her heart. Sent her right back into withdrawl. It's very real and very true. i know my symptoms just like you know yours. i really don't need any help and i obviously can't be helped. Just wanted to know why anybody thought the cdp choline would not help. Still don't understand that part.

    Oh yes, progesterone and hc are completely different but they are both steroids. Nobody understands the benzo world except people who take them. i was put on them for GAD. People are suffering so badly to the point where they can't even describe there symptoms sometimes. And i know what they mean, because i tried it once myself. They want the original gaba back. It's not like an alcohol detox, or a meth etc, detox where in 4 or 5 days you are done. It can last for up to 18 months depending on the person, how long you took them. This if after they finish the detox.



    It's a rare disease. Unless you know people who have hypopituitarism.



    people and their make-up are so different, yes so alike in many way. So if you went through what I went through, you would know. You are probably going through things that nobody understand either. only you.



    thanks for your time. But still, I don't understand why it says it raises ACTH, but would not raise mine. That's all i dont get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    Thanks for trying to help me out.

    I know everything you are saying but unless you have the disease, or have gone through I have then you don't understand.

    the only other drug i was taking was levoxyl and Klonopin. Levoxyl and Klonopin don't interact. Steroids of ANY type interfere with gaba receptors. All of the ACTH was drawn early in the morning fasting.



    It's called a ACTH stimulation test. that's what I am talking about. They inject you with ACTH and then draw your blood 30 minutes and 60 minutes later. Before they draw the blood the first draw ACTH which on both stim tests, mine came back <5. THEN when they inject you with ACTH your numbers go up. well of course my numbers went up. I was injected with something i needed. I explained this in one of my posts. Sorry if you did not understand. THe klonopin and the hydrocortisone interacted so badly. obviously, because when i stopped the HC, the symptoms went away. Steroids bind to gaba receptors. unless you take benzo's, you would not understand. So, yes i have a hpa axis problem. I cannot feel my cortisol rising to meet any occasion. unless you don't have this disease, you take that for granted. like i did before i got it.

    I have no adrenaline to fight or fight. can't handle stress. When I stopped the hc, I went through several withdrawl. i took them for 6 months.

    And then they hit. the highest i ever took was 17.5 mgs and the lowest was 2.5 which 2.5 did the same thing to me. i remember on a thyroid forum where a girl wrote if you take steroids with a benzo it will wreak havoc on your life. Then i thought I would start researching. But I was already having symptoms before this.



    In time of stress, my cortisol does not rise. in times of happiness my cortisol does not rise. When you lose this, you KNOW it. When you have it you really don't know. you get into a stessful situation, and your cortisol rises to be able to handle that. then after all is said and done it slowly goes back down. and your good to go. I cannot take any kind of a steroid being a corticosteroid, progesterone, anything of the like. And yes i know the difference between the two. I suppose i came to the wrong place except for ya'll to say that CDP choline won't raise my ACTH levels. But I'm not quite sure why that is. you would know if you had the disease.

    I hope I have explained myself better. But just want to know why cdp choline won't help in your opinion if it says that what it does. It should not be taken at all with people who have a different type of HPA axis problem either where there ACTH is to high. but that is getting into cushing's and off the subject. noboby will tell me any different that the two drugs interact. Been there. But people don't undertand unless they have been there too.



    A girl got partially electricuted who was titrating from benzo's. doctor gave her prednisone to protect her heart. Sent her right back into withdrawl. It's very real and very true. i know my symptoms just like you know yours. i really don't need any help and i obviously can't be helped. Just wanted to know why anybody thought the cdp choline would not help. Still don't understand that part.

    Oh yes, progesterone and hc are completely different but they are both steroids. Nobody understands the benzo world except people who take them. i was put on them for GAD. People are suffering so badly to the point where they can't even describe there symptoms sometimes. And i know what they mean, because i tried it once myself. They want the original gaba back. It's not like an alcohol detox, or a meth etc, detox where in 4 or 5 days you are done. It can last for up to 18 months depending on the person, how long you took them. This if after they finish the detox.



    It's a rare disease. Unless you know people who have hypopituitarism.



    people and their make-up are so different, yes so alike in many way. So if you went through what I went through, you would know. You are probably going through things that nobody understand either. only you.



    thanks for your time. But still, I don't understand why it says it raises ACTH, but would not raise mine. That's all i dont get.

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    I'm trying to give a link for something for you to read, but it won't let me yet.

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    First, let me be clear. Telling people they won't understand, can't understand, or can't help because they don't have your disease is a great way to alienate the people you're asking for help. This board is founded on scientific reasoning much more than anecdotal advice, and the science is strictly objective. The point being that one does not need to have hypopituitarism to offer erudite advice, and you should not reject that advice based on the false premise that only individuals suffering from the disease can relate.



    That said, I happen to have hypopituitarism, so you can dispense with saying I don't understand.



    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    Thanks for trying to help me out.

    I know everything you are saying but unless you have the disease, or have gone through I have then you don't understand.

    the only other drug i was taking was levoxyl and Klonopin. Levoxyl and Klonopin don't interact. Steroids of ANY type interfere with gaba receptors. All of the ACTH was drawn early in the morning fasting.


    Indeed, Levoxyl and Klonopin do not interact.



    Not all steroids have appreciable affinity for GABA receptors. Neurosteroids, including DHEA, pregnenolone, progesterone, and allopregnanolone, all have considerable affinity for GABA, though the first two are inhibitory (i.e. oppose the effects of benzodiazepines) whereas the latter two are excitatory (i.e. potentiate the effects of benzodiazepines).



    As noted in (PMID: 17108970), only steroids with a C3alpha hydroxyl and a C20 ketone have affinity for GABA-A. This includes the aforementioned steroids, but does not include cortisol, which is merely another name for hydrocortisone.




    It's called a ACTH stimulation test. that's what I am talking about. They inject you with ACTH and then draw your blood 30 minutes and 60 minutes later. Before they draw the blood the first draw ACTH which on both stim tests, mine came back <5. THEN when they inject you with ACTH your numbers go up. well of course my numbers went up. I was injected with something i needed. I explained this in one of my posts. Sorry if you did not understand.


    Actually your numbers went up because you were injected with the very compound they were measuring. If I inject ACTH into you and then draw blood samples, your ACTH levels are higher.



    However, in an ACTH stimulation test, cortisol is the hormone being sampled and ACTH is the hormone being injected. ACTH is not sampled in a normal ACTH stimulation test because there would be no point.



    I am trying to ascertain whether the numbers you are referring to are cortisol or ACTH.



    Regardless of the details, the point is clear. You have secondary adrenal insufficiency due to inadequate hypothalamus/pituitary output.




    THe klonopin and the hydrocortisone interacted so badly. obviously, because when i stopped the HC, the symptoms went away. Steroids bind to gaba receptors. unless you take benzo's, you would not understand. So, yes i have a hpa axis problem. I cannot feel my cortisol rising to meet any occasion. unless you don't have this disease, you take that for granted. like i did before i got it.


    Yeah, hydrocortisone really doesn't bind to GABA receptors, but it does have other effects in the brain that might cause problems.



    You have observed a negative response to hydrocortisone and are inappropriately attributing an event (hydrocortisone binding to GABA) that simply does not occur. I understand your frustration, but this is simply false.



    Moreover, I don't need to take benzodiazepines to know which receptors cortisol binds to. Lucky for us, medical science allows us to ascertain details of human physiology without having experienced the subject of study.




    I have no adrenaline to fight or fight. can't handle stress. When I stopped the hc, I went through several withdrawl. i took them for 6 months.

    And then they hit. the highest i ever took was 17.5 mgs and the lowest was 2.5 which 2.5 did the same thing to me. i remember on a thyroid forum where a girl wrote if you take steroids with a benzo it will wreak havoc on your life. Then i thought I would start researching. But I was already having symptoms before this.


    Right, this is typical -- when you become reliant on HC you do end up with withdrawal. I hope you tapered the dose of HC before going off of it, because not doing so would have made it considerably worse.




    In time of stress, my cortisol does not rise. in times of happiness my cortisol does not rise. When you lose this, you KNOW it. When you have it you really don't know. you get into a stessful situation, and your cortisol rises to be able to handle that. then after all is said and done it slowly goes back down. and your good to go. I cannot take any kind of a steroid being a corticosteroid, progesterone, anything of the like. And yes i know the difference between the two. I suppose i came to the wrong place except for ya'll to say that CDP choline won't raise my ACTH levels. But I'm not quite sure why that is. you would know if you had the disease.

    I hope I have explained myself better. But just want to know why cdp choline won't help in your opinion if it says that what it does. It should not be taken at all with people who have a different type of HPA axis problem either where there ACTH is to high. but that is getting into cushing's and off the subject. noboby will tell me any different that the two drugs interact. Been there. But people don't undertand unless they have been there too.


    Yeah, everyone on this board is pretty familiar with what you're describing, it's not mysterious, but it is of course severely impairing.



    I didn't say CDP-choline won't raise your ACTH levels. I said it won't necessarily do so because you had not clarified the nature of the pathology. Assuming your pituitary and hypothalamus are intact, then it should do so, although it may be associated with significant side effects.



    There are many threads on this forum discussing solutions to hypoactive HPA function and low ACTH/cortisol. SSRIs (e.g. Lexapro), St. John's Wort, and curcumin are three very worthwhile drugs to consider in addition to CDP-choline.



    And finally once again, benzodiazpines and corticosteroids do not directly interact at the GABA receptor, but benzodiazepines do heighten the sensitivity of the hypothalamus to cortisol-induced negative feedback and thereby result in significant side effects when taken with hydrocortisone. It's understandable why you had so much trouble there, but I'm just trying to clarify that it has nothing to do with the GABA receptor, at least not directly.




    A girl got partially electricuted who was titrating from benzo's. doctor gave her prednisone to protect her heart. Sent her right back into withdrawl. It's very real and very true. i know my symptoms just like you know yours. i really don't need any help and i obviously can't be helped. Just wanted to know why anybody thought the cdp choline would not help. Still don't understand that part.


    Again, probably, assuming your pituitary and hypothalamus are intact, which is what I've been trying to ascertain, it should work. Whether it will work in the long-term or work without side effects is not clear.




    Oh yes, progesterone and hc are completely different but they are both steroids. Nobody understands the benzo world except people who take them. i was put on them for GAD. People are suffering so badly to the point where they can't even describe there symptoms sometimes. And i know what they mean, because i tried it once myself. They want the original gaba back. It's not like an alcohol detox, or a meth etc, detox where in 4 or 5 days you are done. It can last for up to 18 months depending on the person, how long you took them. This if after they finish the detox.


    I get it, you've met a lot of doctors who do not know what they're talking about, as have I. It's incredibly frustrating and it makes you lose faith in the medical profession. But I've been reading medical journals for a decade, been studying hypopituitarism for longer, and am extremely well versed in this area. I'm not trying to tell you "it's all in your head", but try to dispense with the notion that I can't possibly help you because I don't understand.



    Progesterone and HC are both steroids, but only progesterone interacts with the GABA receptor. However, because benzodiazepines sensitize the HPA to negative feedback, they both could easy lead to negative effects when taken with benzodiazepines. If you want me to explain this in more detail, I'm happy to do so.



    And indeed, benzodiazepines are a blessing and curse and their withdrawal is quite severe.




    It's a rare disease. Unless you know people who have hypopituitarism.



    people and their make-up are so different, yes so alike in many way. So if you went through what I went through, you would know. You are probably going through things that nobody understand either. only you.


    Yes, but mostly what's going on is not that everyone is hopelessly unique but rather that most doctors are woefully incompetent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    First, let me be clear. Telling people they won't understand, can't understand, or can't help because they don't have your disease is a great way to alienate the people you're asking for help. This board is founded on scientific reasoning much more than anecdotal advice, and the science is strictly objective. The point being that one does not need to have hypopituitarism to offer erudite advice, and you should not reject that advice based on the false premise that only individuals suffering from the disease can relate.



    That said, I happen to have hypopituitarism, so you can dispense with saying I don't understand.







    Indeed, Levoxyl and Klonopin do not interact.



    Not all steroids have appreciable affinity for GABA receptors. Neurosteroids, including DHEA, pregnenolone, progesterone, and allopregnanolone, all have considerable affinity for GABA, though the first two are inhibitory (i.e. oppose the effects of benzodiazepines) whereas the latter two are excitatory (i.e. potentiate the effects of benzodiazepines).



    As noted in (PMID: 17108970), only steroids with a C3alpha hydroxyl and a C20 ketone have affinity for GABA-A. This includes the aforementioned steroids, but does not include cortisol, which is merely another name for hydrocortisone.







    Actually your numbers went up because you were injected with the very compound they were measuring. If I inject ACTH into you and then draw blood samples, your ACTH levels are higher.



    However, in an ACTH stimulation test, cortisol is the hormone being sampled and ACTH is the hormone being injected. ACTH is not sampled in a normal ACTH stimulation test because there would be no point.



    I am trying to ascertain whether the numbers you are referring to are cortisol or ACTH.



    Regardless of the details, the point is clear. You have secondary adrenal insufficiency due to inadequate hypothalamus/pituitary output.







    Yeah, hydrocortisone really doesn't bind to GABA receptors, but it does have other effects in the brain that might cause problems.



    You have observed a negative response to hydrocortisone and are inappropriately attributing an event (hydrocortisone binding to GABA) that simply does not occur. I understand your frustration, but this is simply false.



    Moreover, I don't need to take benzodiazepines to know which receptors cortisol binds to. Lucky for us, medical science allows us to ascertain details of human physiology without having experienced the subject of study.







    Right, this is typical -- when you become reliant on HC you do end up with withdrawal. I hope you tapered the dose of HC before going off of it, because not doing so would have made it considerably worse.







    Yeah, everyone on this board is pretty familiar with what you're describing, it's not mysterious, but it is of course severely impairing.



    I didn't say CDP-choline won't raise your ACTH levels. I said it won't necessarily do so because you had not clarified the nature of the pathology. Assuming your pituitary and hypothalamus are intact, then it should do so, although it may be associated with significant side effects.



    There are many threads on this forum discussing solutions to hypoactive HPA function and low ACTH/cortisol. SSRIs (e.g. Lexapro), St. John's Wort, and curcumin are three very worthwhile drugs to consider in addition to CDP-choline.



    And finally once again, benzodiazpines and corticosteroids do not directly interact at the GABA receptor, but benzodiazepines do heighten the sensitivity of the hypothalamus to cortisol-induced negative feedback and thereby result in significant side effects when taken with hydrocortisone. It's understandable why you had so much trouble there, but I'm just trying to clarify that it has nothing to do with the GABA receptor, at least not directly.







    Again, probably, assuming your pituitary and hypothalamus are intact, which is what I've been trying to ascertain, it should work. Whether it will work in the long-term or work without side effects is not clear.







    I get it, you've met a lot of doctors who do not know what they're talking about, as have I. It's incredibly frustrating and it makes you lose faith in the medical profession. But I've been reading medical journals for a decade, been studying hypopituitarism for longer, and am extremely well versed in this area. I'm not trying to tell you "it's all in your head", but try to dispense with the notion that I can't possibly help you because I don't understand.



    Progesterone and HC are both steroids, but only progesterone interacts with the GABA receptor. However, because benzodiazepines sensitize the HPA to negative feedback, they both could easy lead to negative effects when taken with benzodiazepines. If you want me to explain this in more detail, I'm happy to do so.



    And indeed, benzodiazepines are a blessing and curse and their withdrawal is quite severe.







    Yes, but mostly what's going on is not that everyone is hopelessly unique but rather that most doctors are woefully incompetent.


    In no way am i trying to alienate myself from getting help. that is why i came here. let me clarify something. There are thousands of people that don't understand people' problems. you on the other hand might be a different person. I know this from experience. because of the way people are.



    What kind of hypopit do you have? What hormone are you lacking in. or are you pan? i'm just lacking in the ACTH part. the rest are normal. And i truly meant to add in another post that IF IF you don't have the disease. i'm sorry you have this dreaded disease as well. The number i am talking about are both. have you ever had a ACTH stim test? you know they draw the blood for ACTH first and cortisol, then inject you. my Cortisol rose because i was injected with the ACTH. just like you said. But did not even double.



    Yes, ACTH is sampled before a stim test. i have had two. Yes, i am well aware i have SAI, know everything about it. I am just trying to tell you that i cannot take steroids in any fashion. Something hit in my brain and receptors. There was nothing else I was doing at all except for those meds. i think you know things that i don't and i think i know things that you don't.

    And yes, i have read that SSRI's raise ACTH. i don't know how true that is, I tried lexapro one time. i thought i was going to blow up. not literally like in mad, my body had this sensation. i contributed that to thenor epinephrine and my adrenals not holding up. i have no idea if i am correct on that one. yes, and i do know that cdp increases norepinephrine. i thought about that too.

    What I mean by i think I know things that you don't is because of my symptoms. And just because you can give me these numbers which is very interesting, does not mean it did not happen to me. There is more than one gaba receptor as I'm sure you know. Quite possible it interacted with a different one. Possibly steroids like you said might have caused these problems in my brain. Each time I'm hit, I react the same way. like with progesterone. Then i got stupid, and ordered a homeopathic rememdy off the internet. it contained ACTH, hypothalamus, pit, tsh, cigmifuga racemosa, and amygdala amara. incidentally i have been studying the amygdala.

    The homeopathy remedy hit hard after two weeks. Something is definetly wrong and as you know without being able to take hc, this is next to impossible. Well, if it is not directly, then it is indirectly which can cause just as much harm and or suffering. I never said you could NOT help me literally. i was mostly talking about benzo's. This is the drug i am quite versed in. And I meant IF you don't take a benzo, that you have no idea what they can do, except for maybe other people that you know who are on them. But maybe don't take hc with them. you know? And why did it happen to 6 people acutally on the benzo board. This has to be happening somehow.



    Triterpene saponins are steroidal. This is what is in SJW. It is mostly in all the herbs. a form of it anyway.

    Do you have thyroid disease as well? This usually goes hand in hand in alot of cases.

    i would be happy for you to explain anything to me in more detail. i am not aleinating anyone or anything. But hypopit is rare to a wide extent. I would like to know if anyone else on the board like you said is hypopit. But just not on benzos. There is a correlation here somewhere and i know it. Just don't know what. I'm getting sick to death trying to figure it out. i have a child, I am 50 years old and my son is 13. had him late in life. We lost his father to cancer. i'm scared to death of a adrenal crisis if something should happen. I'm tellin you Ex, if I did go into one, I want to go like that. Because I want to go to heaven and If I have to have hc to save my life, i could not live like that again.. That's how bad it was. Now, you tell me what you think about my symptoms dissappearing after i stopped the hc.



    I have lost faith in all the medical profession. HOWEVER, if I could take hc, then i guess it would not be their fault. But i have been told I don't have it when it is clear that I do.

    Now, what do you take for your hypopit, and like I asked before, what kind do you have?

    I even went to a homeopathic doctor who gave me homeo ACTH. I came home and drank that stuff. WOW. i felt endorphins that I have not felt in three years. NEXT DAY, BOOM. It did not last as long as after the hc. I stopped Hc in April of 09. In June the withdrawl hit me. Isn't this some weird stuff? That lasted for four months. I can't begin to explain the withdrawl symptoms. They were just too weird. Then I looked into cranial sacral massage. That got me through that following Christmas. I always wondered why it took that long to go into withdrawl.

    Do you know what caused your hypopit? I want to try coming off the benzo again. But even after withdrawl, it takes a long time for those receptors to upregulate again. And I wonder what that would do to my adrenal glands. All i want to do is see my child grow up and see my grandchilden if that should happen.

    you must have an understanding what it is like to have this and not take the drug you need. Even the simplest stress, i have to lay down for several hours till this strange feeling passes. i can actually feel my cortisol wanting to rise. it just won;t get there. That is where the strange feelings come in.

    So, what i was saying is we are all different and it could be anything that is causing this, and maybe i will never find out.



    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17086936



    i hope that goes through. This is about steroid receptors. i can't take B-6. I know i've tried it. i put the nicotine patch on and told my son i feel like i'm on steroids. This explains it. I did not know why that patch was doing this to me, until I looked it up. Makes perfect sense. I have explained myself about wanting help. You are the first person i have encountered that has hypopit, other than the people on the thyroid board. The posts are kind of harsh yet at the same time helpful. You can't hear my tone of voice or see my body language. if you could, you may not have taken it that way.



    And I do thank you. i would like to see you go head to head with other people who will tell you everything about hypopit. I have read alot. LOL........ now don't take that wrong either. loll..I have read the mortality rate is not good if not supported.

    All i can do is hold onto my FAITH.............



    Once again,

    thanks.................

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    no reply from Dubio? Where did you go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    no reply from Dubio? Where did you go?


    Currently dealing with a repetitive use injury of my wrist/elbow, so give me some time. I will reply, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    Currently dealing with a repetitive use injury of my wrist/elbow, so give me some time. I will reply, though.


    I've struggled with this for years. You should check out Dragon NaturallySpeaking, if you haven't already.

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    ok........... I hope you feel better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    What kind of hypopit do you have? What hormone are you lacking in. or are you pan? i'm just lacking in the ACTH part. the rest are normal. And i truly meant to add in another post that IF IF you don't have the disease. i'm sorry you have this dreaded disease as well. The number i am talking about are both. have you ever had a ACTH stim test? you know they draw the blood for ACTH first and cortisol, then inject you. my Cortisol rose because i was injected with the ACTH. just like you said. But did not even double.


    Panhypopituitarism with functional, but subpar, ACTH output.



    I've had an ACTH stimulation test, and I came out on the low side, but keep in mind that the ACTH stimulation test is as much a test of the adrenals as it is of the pituitary/hypothalamus. They didn't draw ACTH when I did it, and that's not part of the typical method, but your doctor(s) may have deviated from the standard protocol.



    Just for the sake of completeness, I'll clarify that the ACTH tests examines the responsivity of your adrenal glands to ACTH. In ACTH deficiency, the adrenals shrink and become subsensitive, so low ACTH output can cause low ACTH stimulation test results. However, dysfunctional in the adrenal glands themselves can also cause low ACTH stimulation test results. I imagine, though, from the rest of what you've said, that the problem for you is in the pituitary/brain.




    Yes, ACTH is sampled before a stim test. i have had two. Yes, i am well aware i have SAI, know everything about it. I am just trying to tell you that i cannot take steroids in any fashion. Something hit in my brain and receptors. There was nothing else I was doing at all except for those meds. i think you know things that i don't and i think i know things that you don't.


    Still a bit puzzled on the steroid thing, but I don't doubt you've explored it. More on that later.




    And yes, i have read that SSRI's raise ACTH. i don't know how true that is, I tried lexapro one time. i thought i was going to blow up. not literally like in mad, my body had this sensation. i contributed that to thenor epinephrine and my adrenals not holding up. i have no idea if i am correct on that one. yes, and i do know that cdp increases norepinephrine. i thought about that too.


    Anything that increases serotonin (5-HT) or acetycholine (ACh) in the hypothalamus is typically going to increase CRH and thus ACTH secretion. SSRIs have been shown to do this with chronic treatment, but they do have side effects -- particularly at the start. Part of the key here, though, is choosing an appropriate dose; I've had good luck with dosing in the lower end of the range, something like 2.5 mg escitalopram (Lexapro) or 10 mg fluoxetine (Prozac). The effect may take some time to appear, but it's quite pleasant. It is true, as you say, that SSRIs can acutely increase adrenal output (in terms of norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine (E)), but this goes away with sustained treatment.



    If you haven't tried them at a low dose or haven't given them much time, SSRIs may be worthwhile. Also, buspirone added to an SSRI -- but not by itself -- has worked well for me when I've tried it.



    CDP-choline works toward the other pathway, namely increasing ACh, and may have validity here, but almost any drug that will increase ACTH output will also increase sympathetic nervous system activity (i.e. E/NE) as well. You can also try acetycholinesterase inhibitors like huperzine A or donepezil.



    Curcumin, which is a pretty amazing little herb, also has some indirect effects that may result in enhanced ACTH output, but more importantly curcumin reduces inflammation throughout the body. Since many of the effects of low cortisol output are due to unchecked inflammation, curcumin can be very helpful here. Something like 500 mg/day is a good place to start. As an added bonus, it protects against cancer and has an incredible number of positive benefits.



    Another idea advanced by some doctors to increase ACTH output is to take clonidine (0.1-0.3 mg) at night before bedtime. The rebound from this in the morning will increase the cortisol awakening response by increasing ACTH output. Careful of sending blood pressure too low, however.



    Bupropion is another antidepressant with the potential to enhance cortisol output, though it may increase NE/E too much for your liking. Not sure if you've tried it.



    Finally, though it's not ideal from a safety standpoint, nicotine is one of the single best compounds in existence for enhancing ACTH output. Obviously smoking is far from ideal, but nicotine patches and nicotine gum are rather superb. They can be excessively stimulating at first, but after the initial effects pass -- with chronic use, that is -- they can be quite useful. There are some relatively mild long-term risks, but if nicotine works for you, it's likely worth it.




    What I mean by i think I know things that you don't is because of my symptoms. And just because you can give me these numbers which is very interesting, does not mean it did not happen to me. There is more than one gaba receptor as I'm sure you know. Quite possible it interacted with a different one. Possibly steroids like you said might have caused these problems in my brain. Each time I'm hit, I react the same way. like with progesterone. Then i got stupid, and ordered a homeopathic rememdy off the internet. it contained ACTH, hypothalamus, pit, tsh, cigmifuga racemosa, and amygdala amara. incidentally i have been studying the amygdala.


    I realize that there are still a great many unknowns in the brain, but the distinct GABA receptors (namely GABA-A and GABA-, their subunits, and their allosteric receptors (like where benzodiazepines bind on the GABA-A receptor) are fairly well recognized. As I said before, a number of steroids do bind to the receptors, but cortisol/hydrocortisone very much seems not to bind to either.



    But, that doesn't in the slightest mean your symptoms aren't real. To expand on what I said before, let me explain a bit. Some -- or even all -- of this you may already know.



    Cortisol is regulated in the body by binding to glucocorticoid receptor (GR) sites in the pituitary and hypothalamus where it exerts negative feedback. This way, high levels of cortisol result in less ACTH output, and the system controls itself. However, sensitivity of the hypothalamus in particular to negative feedback varies based on a number of other parameters.



    See, part of the hypothalamus called the paraventricular nucleus (PVN) continually induces CRH -- and thus ACTH -- release when it's active. But a number of influences dampen the activity of the PVN. One such influence is cortisol itself; cortisol binds to GRs in the PVN and reduces the PVN's activity as part of its normal negative feedback system. But there are also GABA-A receptors in the PVN; when GABA binds to those receptors, the PVN reduces its activity and -- likewise -- becomes more sensitive to cortisol negative feedback. Benzodiazepines, as you know, increase the extent of GABA-A receptor activation and thereby enhance the sensitivity of the PVN to cortisol.



    The result is that the PVN "perceives" an adequate level of cortisol when in fact serum cortisol is insufficient. This is all because cortisol is resulting in far too strong of a negative feedback signal being propagated when it binds in the hypothalamus and is, in part, an unavoidable consequence of benzodiazepines.



    The upshot of all of this is that when you take exogenous glucocorticoids, like hydrocortisone, they may actually result in a net reduction in cortisol levels. They initially increase the level of plasma cortisol, but then the hypothalamus "over-reacts" by too strongly curtailing ACTH production and this results in a lower level of serum cortisol than you started with!



    The point of all of this is that hydrocortisone (and other steroids) need not bind to GABA receptors to cause the kinds of problems you describe. Obviously the situation is not immediately remedied, but there is a great deal of hope. In particular, SSRIs and cholinergics -- like the compounds I mentioned above -- can decrease the sensitivity of the hypothalamus to cortisol negative feedback and therefore reset the system. This is why I recommended them.



    More in the following post.

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    The homeopathy remedy hit hard after two weeks. Something is definetly wrong and as you know without being able to take hc, this is next to impossible. Well, if it is not directly, then it is indirectly which can cause just as much harm and or suffering. I never said you could NOT help me literally. i was mostly talking about benzo's. This is the drug i am quite versed in. And I meant IF you don't take a benzo, that you have no idea what they can do, except for maybe other people that you know who are on them. But maybe don't take hc with them. you know? And why did it happen to 6 people acutally on the benzo board. This has to be happening somehow.


    Yeah, it's hard to know what's in the so-called homeopathy remedy, so it's hard to say much.



    I tried to explain above why benzodiazepines in combination with hydrocortisone probably results in so many problems. I hope it made sense. I've certainly used benzodiazepines before, though never chronically, but I'm also well aware of their benefits, drawbacks, and side effects in long-term use. Their withdrawals are likewise atrocious. But I digress.




    Triterpene saponins are steroidal. This is what is in SJW. It is mostly in all the herbs. a form of it anyway.

    Do you have thyroid disease as well? This usually goes hand in hand in alot of cases.


    I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around your response to exogenous steroids. You have plenty of steroids circulating in your blood stream right now, including testosterone, estradiol, estriol, estrone, DHEA, pregnenolone, progesterone, and so on. Of course, supplementing exogenous hormones can to some extent upset the balance, but it still seems hard to believe that all exogenous steroids have caused problems -- steroids are just an incredible diverse group of molecules.



    I know you've mentioned hydrocortisone and progesterone, but have you tried any other steroids and experienced adverse reactions?




    i would be happy for you to explain anything to me in more detail. i am not aleinating anyone or anything. But hypopit is rare to a wide extent. I would like to know if anyone else on the board like you said is hypopit. But just not on benzos. There is a correlation here somewhere and i know it. Just don't know what. I'm getting sick to death trying to figure it out. i have a child, I am 50 years old and my son is 13. had him late in life. We lost his father to cancer. i'm scared to death of a adrenal crisis if something should happen. I'm tellin you Ex, if I did go into one, I want to go like that. Because I want to go to heaven and If I have to have hc to save my life, i could not live like that again.. That's how bad it was. Now, you tell me what you think about my symptoms dissappearing after i stopped the hc.


    Hypopituitarism is indeed rare. I've seen others with a form of it post here, but I'm not sure if any frequent it right now. We likewise have a number of people who have used or are using benzodiazepines chronically, if that helps.



    Sorry to hear of how hard it's been for you, but I wouldn't give up just yet. There's still many ideas left to try. I see why hydrocortisone has been such a problem for you, but bad response to hydrocortisone is actually more common than you might think for similar reasons as the ones I laid out before. Many people have hyperactive cortisol negative feedback systems either through genetics or other drugs, and the result is often that hydrocortisone therapy does more harm than good. Many individuals on this forum have similar stories in that regard.



    And as I alluded to above, there are a great many more drugs, supplements, and ideas to look into. For what it's worth, too, if you are scared of an adrenal crisis, carry some hydrocortisone around with you on your keychain or in another suitable container that's easy to keep around. Obviously don't take it regularly, but it will certainly save your life in the midst of a legitimate adrenal crisis.




    I have lost faith in all the medical profession. HOWEVER, if I could take hc, then i guess it would not be their fault. But i have been told I don't have it when it is clear that I do.

    Now, what do you take for your hypopit, and like I asked before, what kind do you have?


    Answered what kind above.



    I've taken a number of different combinations of things over the years. For the lack of LH and FSH I take testosterone and hCG. For lack of GH, I said injectable GH. For lack of TSH, I take levothyroxine (Levoxyl). I have enough natural ACTH production that I won't die without hydrocortisone, but I was never content with merely not dying, and wanted to not be miserable.



    So to deal with subpar ACTH levels I've used SSRIs, SJW, buspirone (combined with SSRIs), nicotine, bupropion, ALCAR, 5-HTP, SAMe, and other compounds I can't remember offhand. I had some luck with all of them, but I had the best long-term experience with low-dose SSRIs (10 mg fluoxetine or 2.5 mg escitalopram, as I mentioned before). They caused a great deal of agitation at first, but benefited me greatly in the long-term. If SSRIs don't work, 5-HTP and SAMe are both potential means by which one can accomplish similar goals, as they both increase serotonin release, albeit less effective than SSRIs. Finally, I still use nicotine sporadically, as it is just incredibly effective for me.




    I even went to a homeopathic doctor who gave me homeo ACTH. I came home and drank that stuff. WOW. i felt endorphins that I have not felt in three years. NEXT DAY, BOOM. It did not last as long as after the hc. I stopped Hc in April of 09. In June the withdrawl hit me. Isn't this some weird stuff? That lasted for four months. I can't begin to explain the withdrawl symptoms. They were just too weird. Then I looked into cranial sacral massage. That got me through that following Christmas. I always wondered why it took that long to go into withdrawl.


    The problem with taking any form of ACTH is that you end up with the same problems as with hydrocortisone, at least in the long-term. Since the problem is in part with the hypothalamus not signaling the pituitary to produce enough ACTH, exogenous ACTH just increases cortisol levels and then stimulates the same hyperactive cortisol negative feedback system, leading to lower cortisol levels than you started with. This is probably why it failed the day after.



    The delayed withdrawal from HC is weird as hell, and I don't have a good theory for that. Part of what complicates everything, though, is that highly stressful experiences can send "shocks" through the system and result in temporary (or even permanent) alterations in function. The withdrawal symptoms themselves were no doubt awful, though, as long-term treatment with HC causes moderate adrenal atrophy, so you'd be unable to produce even your previous "normal" level of endogenous cortisol for a few months. I don't envy you that experience.




    Do you know what caused your hypopit? I want to try coming off the benzo again. But even after withdrawl, it takes a long time for those receptors to upregulate again. And I wonder what that would do to my adrenal glands. All i want to do is see my child grow up and see my grandchilden if that should happen.


    Mine was probably caused by head trauma, but it is to this day considered idiopathic.



    Truthfully, benzidazepine withdrawal may be your best option. It is indeed hell and it may take a long time, but it might also allow you to take HC happily or may even fix a number of your problems by itself. As I'm sure you know, benzodiazepiens -- in addition to all their other effects -- directly reduce ACTH production.



    If you do decide to withdraw from benzodiazepines again, you might read or ask here a bit. I'm sure you know plenty about benzodiazepines, but some different perspectives can be helpful. For example, clonidine has been known to ease benzodiazepine withdrawal considerably, and going on SSRIs before withdrawing might help ease a great deal of the anxiety of coming off.



    Another thought is that as soon as benzodiazepine withdrawal starts -- within days of stopping -- the effects of HC may already have changed, and you may be able to suddenly take HC again. That might also ameliorate the withdrawal period.




    you must have an understanding what it is like to have this and not take the drug you need. Even the simplest stress, i have to lay down for several hours till this strange feeling passes. i can actually feel my cortisol wanting to rise. it just won;t get there. That is where the strange feelings come in.

    So, what i was saying is we are all different and it could be anything that is causing this, and maybe i will never find out.


    Yep, I know what's that like.




    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17086936



    i hope that goes through. This is about steroid receptors. i can't take B-6. I know i've tried it. i put the nicotine patch on and told my son i feel like i'm on steroids. This explains it. I did not know why that patch was doing this to me, until I looked it up. Makes perfect sense. I have explained myself about wanting help. You are the first person i have encountered that has hypopit, other than the people on the thyroid board. The posts are kind of harsh yet at the same time helpful. You can't hear my tone of voice or see my body language. if you could, you may not have taken it that way.


    Interesting; I'd mentioned nicotine assuming you'd never tried it. When you say it's like steroids, do you mean in a good or bad way? Also remember that nicotine is often unpleasantly stimulating at first, but gets better with time -- unlike steroids.



    Odd that B6 makes you feel so bad, too. I'll have to read more into that.



    My apologies if I was too harsh or too cold, and it seems I did misinterpret your tone, so I'm sorry about that as well. I wish you the best of luck in getting better.

  18. #18
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    Hi Dub,

    have a a really rough time since posting.



    Talk to me about curcumin. i have been reading here and elsewhere where it downregulates the hpa axis but yet may increase cortisol levels. paranoid me as you know, what receptors if any does it hit. i would like to try it, but can you explain more. Does it increase cortisol? I read where it helps with anxiety and depression too.

    i have a msg sensitivity, really bad, and i also read where it blocks msg to a certain extent????????



    FYI, here are my salvia results from just a couple of weeks ago. cortisol

    6- 8 am. 13 (13-24) they call this normal since i am in range. i am at the very bottom. you know?

    11-1 8 5-10 that seems good. but can't wake up at all at that time of day.

    4-5 p.m 8 (3-8)

    midnight 6 elevated 1-4



    DHEA-s is HIGH. on a graph i am at the very top. I have had a ct scan of my adrenals and they are normal in size and shape. (thinking of cah). But the scan revealed normal. This is from diagnos-techs.



    i also have a high igf-1 and 2. i forgot to tell you that. suppressed GH. no acromegaly. so, indication of cancer which is why i had that scan. I had a colonoscopy the other day and he found no cancer. have regular breast check ups. clear so far. i don't know where the hell all of this is coming from.



    They say that the high dhea can be from increased ACTH. OH MY. Well, that can't be true. or a tumor which i just explained. or consider using tai chi. i can't find the correct emoticon for this. lol. nothing is funny about this. i could now make a A on a test that contains hidden msg ingredients.

    my klonopin contains cornstarch. was having reactions. so I switched to librium which is in a GELATIN capsule which i just empty out and drink the shit.



    A doctor made me swallow a capsule to check for stomach acid. came back very low.

    The endoscopy which I also had the other day came back high stomach acid. im so confused.

    They gave me dermoral but did not put me under. I could not come out of that for two hours and everyone else was up wallking around and leaving. They had to put me in a special room. I could just not come out of that twilight sedation. Scared me. They said i needed to be in a hospital setting the next time. I don't understand that either.



    I ordered the cranial electrotherapy stimulaton device. used it yesterday. had 3 anxiety attacks while using it and after stopped it, felt like i was on speed and very strange. This sounds like something out of the twilight zone. I sure would like to see my son grow up.



    thank you very much for posting. i knew you were a nice guy. And very intellectual. I hope you are feeling the best you can. Thanks again Dub................ post back to me.

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    ok. been investigating curcumin. Tell me about triterpenes. says they are steroidal. This contains among others that, and turmerone, atlantone, zingaberone. anything that ends in one is steroidal isn't it? I'm reading all over the place and so much is contradictory. do you know about these ingredients? maybe it's my steroid receptors. not the gaba at all,like you said about gaba. I'm reading alot of very good things about curcumin. i looked on pubmed about if it binds to steroid receptors. Could not find anything about it except something about nitric oxide. I'm probably spelling incorrectly, but you know what i mean. pubmed does say in increases cortisol or has the potential to. how does this happen? And if ACTH increases cortisol production, and curcumin inhibits ACTH, then how does this happen? IT's almost impossible to find any herb that does not contain these triterpenines. Help me out if you can. Please. as you can clearly see, i am so very desperate. I know MANY people are as well.





    Thanks.









    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    Hi Dub,

    have a a really rough time since posting.



    Talk to me about curcumin. i have been reading here and elsewhere where it downregulates the hpa axis but yet may increase cortisol levels. paranoid me as you know, what receptors if any does it hit. i would like to try it, but can you explain more. Does it increase cortisol? I read where it helps with anxiety and depression too.

    i have a msg sensitivity, really bad, and i also read where it blocks msg to a certain extent????????



    FYI, here are my salvia results from just a couple of weeks ago. cortisol

    6- 8 am. 13 (13-24) they call this normal since i am in range. i am at the very bottom. you know?

    11-1 8 5-10 that seems good. but can't wake up at all at that time of day.

    4-5 p.m 8 (3-8)

    midnight 6 elevated 1-4



    DHEA-s is HIGH. on a graph i am at the very top. I have had a ct scan of my adrenals and they are normal in size and shape. (thinking of cah). But the scan revealed normal. This is from diagnos-techs.



    i also have a high igf-1 and 2. i forgot to tell you that. suppressed GH. no acromegaly. so, indication of cancer which is why i had that scan. I had a colonoscopy the other day and he found no cancer. have regular breast check ups. clear so far. i don't know where the hell all of this is coming from.



    They say that the high dhea can be from increased ACTH. OH MY. Well, that can't be true. or a tumor which i just explained. or consider using tai chi. i can't find the correct emoticon for this. lol. nothing is funny about this. i could now make a A on a test that contains hidden msg ingredients.

    my klonopin contains cornstarch. was having reactions. so I switched to librium which is in a GELATIN capsule which i just empty out and drink the shit.



    A doctor made me swallow a capsule to check for stomach acid. came back very low.

    The endoscopy which I also had the other day came back high stomach acid. im so confused.

    They gave me dermoral but did not put me under. I could not come out of that for two hours and everyone else was up wallking around and leaving. They had to put me in a special room. I could just not come out of that twilight sedation. Scared me. They said i needed to be in a hospital setting the next time. I don't understand that either.



    I ordered the cranial electrotherapy stimulaton device. used it yesterday. had 3 anxiety attacks while using it and after stopped it, felt like i was on speed and very strange. This sounds like something out of the twilight zone. I sure would like to see my son grow up.



    thank you very much for posting. i knew you were a nice guy. And very intellectual. I hope you are feeling the best you can. Thanks again Dub................ post back to me.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylilcappi View Post
    Talk to me about curcumin. i have been reading here and elsewhere where it downregulates the hpa axis but yet may increase cortisol levels. paranoid me as you know, what receptors if any does it hit. i would like to try it, but can you explain more. Does it increase cortisol? I read where it helps with anxiety and depression too.

    i have a msg sensitivity, really bad, and i also read where it blocks msg to a certain extent????????


    There's a good curcumin thread started by me elsewhere on this board that might help. It's technical, but scroll to the summary. You can find it here.



    The short of it is that it's not clear how curcumin affects cortisol. However, symptoms of low cortisol are typically due to an imbalance in cortisol and inflammation; to wit, inflammation is too high and cortisol is too low. However, curcumin very clearly lowers inflammation dramatically. As a result, regardless of its effects on cortisol, it should improve symptoms of hypocortisolism by performing the role that is typically cortisol's responsibility, namely suppressing inflammation. In my experience, it's pretty effective in that role.



    It's not known what causes MSG sensitivity, so I can't really tell you how curcumin might affect that. But curcumin absolutely helps with anxiety and depression. There are already very high quality rodent studies pointing to the efficacy of curcumin in depression, and there are many anecdotals in humans supporting that same view.




    FYI, here are my salvia results from just a couple of weeks ago. cortisol

    6- 8 am. 13 (13-24) they call this normal since i am in range. i am at the very bottom. you know?

    11-1 8 5-10 that seems good. but can't wake up at all at that time of day.

    4-5 p.m 8 (3-8)

    midnight 6 elevated 1-4


    Yeah, sounds pretty typical. Your cortisol rhythm is out of synch and levels are generally too low, particularly early in the day. This profile, for what it's worth, is pretty common with use of benzodiazepines. That information may not help you much, but I thought you should know that benzos typically "flatten" the cortisol rhythm, resulting in low levels in the morning but higher levels at night. Either way, it's clear there's a problem here.




    DHEA-s is HIGH. on a graph i am at the very top. I have had a ct scan of my adrenals and they are normal in size and shape. (thinking of cah). But the scan revealed normal. This is from diagnos-techs.


    DHEAS regulation is confusing and tricky and it's not nearly as well correlated with cortisol as it often ought to be. Not sure what to make of that, but it's definitely not a problem in and of itself.




    i also have a high igf-1 and 2. i forgot to tell you that. suppressed GH. no acromegaly. so, indication of cancer which is why i had that scan. I had a colonoscopy the other day and he found no cancer. have regular breast check ups. clear so far. i don't know where the hell all of this is coming from.


    You have high IGF-1 and suppressed GH? Something isn't right there; high IGF-1 would suggest high levels of GH release. Not entirely sure what to attribute this to, but again it's not necessarily pathological.



    Good to hear that your body is healthy apart from hypocortisolism; I realize that's rather hollow, as you don't feel healthy at all, but it's a lot better than cancer!




    They say that the high dhea can be from increased ACTH. OH MY. Well, that can't be true. or a tumor which i just explained. or consider using tai chi. i can't find the correct emoticon for this. lol. nothing is funny about this. i could now make a A on a test that contains hidden msg ingredients.

    my klonopin contains cornstarch. was having reactions. so I switched to librium which is in a GELATIN capsule which i just empty out and drink the shit.


    The adrenal itself can modulate DHEA vs. cortisol release in response to ACTH, so high DHEAS does not necessarily mean high ACTH. DHEAS has also been known to be elevated under certain types of stressful circumstances, but the regulatory pathway is not entirely clear and seems located in the adrenals and not in the brain. I'll see if I can find any research that covers the reasons for elevated DHEAS, but I think it's going to be somehow secondary to your main issues and not a cause.




    A doctor made me swallow a capsule to check for stomach acid. came back very low.

    The endoscopy which I also had the other day came back high stomach acid. im so confused.

    They gave me dermoral but did not put me under. I could not come out of that for two hours and everyone else was up wallking around and leaving. They had to put me in a special room. I could just not come out of that twilight sedation. Scared me. They said i needed to be in a hospital setting the next time. I don't understand that either.


    Isn't medicine wonderful. I confess I don't know nearly enough about GI regulation to tell you what to think about the stomach acid tests, but that's wildly confusing, it's true.



    I suspect your response to sedation is a combination of the benzodiazepines already in your system (they're not contraindicated with opioids like Demoral, but they're going to enhance the sedative properties) as well as the hypocortisolism that is evident. If we can fix the hypocortisolism, you won't have this problem again.




    I ordered the cranial electrotherapy stimulaton device. used it yesterday. had 3 anxiety attacks while using it and after stopped it, felt like i was on speed and very strange. This sounds like something out of the twilight zone. I sure would like to see my son grow up.


    Not very familiar with electrotherapy or EMS, but I have heard of them causing anxiety attacks. Not sure how to advise you on that one though, sorry.




    thank you very much for posting. i knew you were a nice guy. And very intellectual. I hope you are feeling the best you can. Thanks again Dub................ post back to me.


    Just hope I can help a bit. I'll respond to the next one in a sec.

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