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    What supplement(s) are there out there that will make a shy person more talkative and extroverted without harming the memory/cognitive abilities?


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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Manganese
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    can't manganese can be toxic to neurons at the levels at which i would need to take it for these effects?

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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    No its therapeutic in a certain dose range where it isnt toxic, i'l refer you to the following thread:
    http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/...solution-70691/

    Other prosocial supplements, hmm you may want to look into afobazole, phenibut and piccamilon (those only for occasional use as tolerance is rapid they are dependency forming).
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (in_ten_city @ Aug 23 2010, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What supplement(s) are there out there that will make a shy person more talkative and extroverted without harming the memory/cognitive abilities?</div>

    Moderate doses of ethanol.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





  6. #6
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Dopamine agonists like requip can theoretically work because the D2 gene has been associated with extrovertism and people with a high social status have a higher density of the D2 and D3 receptors.
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Neurosci Lett. 2010 Jan 14;468(3):234-7. Epub 2009 Nov 6.
    Variation in DRD2 dopamine gene predicts Extraverted personality.
    Smillie LD, Cooper AJ, Proitsi P, Powell JF, Pickering AD.

    Goldsmiths, University of London, UK. l.smillie@gold.ac.uk
    Abstract
    Quantitative geneticists estimate the heritability of Extraverted personality to be around 40-60%. Theory and research which links Extraversion with variation in dopaminergic function suggests that dopaminergic genes should be a start-point for molecular genetic investigations of this trait. Recent endeavours in this area have met with some encouragement but also setbacks. In this study, we investigate the relationship between Extraversion and the DRD2 TaqIA/ANKK1 polymorphism in 224 university students. Presence of at least one copy of the A1 allele was associated with significantly higher Extraversion. The robustness of this finding was confirmed through bootstrap analysis. Findings are discussed in relation to the broader literature, in particular, methodological issues which may have obscured this finding in previous research. Crown Copyright 2009. Published by Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.</div>

    Full text regarding the D2/D3 binding and social status:
    http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.co...22309009652. pdf

    Stimulants are also considered to be highly effective against social anxiety.

    However, OP what exactly if your brain, do you suffer anxiety itself, does something that calm you down fix you (eg alcohol) or do you need to get stimulated and feel exhausted in social situations.

    Or is the problem just a lack of confidence.
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

  7. #7
    Senior Member blarger's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MeDieViL @ Aug 23 2010, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dopamine agonists like requip can theoretically work because the D2 gene has been associated with extrovertism and people with a high social status have a higher density of the D2 and D3 receptors.


    Full text regarding the D2/D3 binding and social status:
    http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.co...22309009652. pdf

    Stimulants are also considered to be highly effective against social anxiety.

    However, OP what exactly if your brain, do you suffer anxiety itself, does something that calm you down fix you (eg alcohol) or do you need to get stimulated and feel exhausted in social situations.

    Or is the problem just a lack of confidence.</div>

    Dopamine agonists are usually neutral to antisocial


  8. #8
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    G4D here has used pramipexole with succes for social anxiety for a few months, he has trouble getting off it now tough.

    Stimulants are still the best option, especially amphetamine.
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Ex Dubio's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MeDieViL @ Aug 23 2010, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dopamine agonists like requip can theoretically work because the D2 gene has been associated with extrovertism and people with a high social status have a higher density of the D2 and D3 receptors.</div>

    Problem here is that the study doesn't look at D2 autoreceptor vs. postsynaptic density. High autoreceptor density leads to poor response to DA agonists and generalized anhedonic -- including antisocial -- behavior, which responds primarily to amphetamine, though to a lesser extent MPH. High postsynaptic density is more likely the part associated with extraversion and reduced social anxiety.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Stimulants are also considered to be highly effective against social anxiety.

    However, OP what exactly if your brain, do you suffer anxiety itself, does something that calm you down fix you (eg alcohol) or do you need to get stimulated and feel exhausted in social situations.

    Or is the problem just a lack of confidence.</div>

    It's probably not confidence OR neurochemical imbalance. As is always the case, these are interrelated phenomena and are entirely inseparable.

    To the OP, I would listen to MeDieViL on this -- I'd say he's the board's expert opinion on SAD, and his post history offers a lot of information that might benefit you. I wish I could help more, but SSRIs (to a small extent) and stimulants (primarily amphetamine) are the main treatments that have a solid record of efficacy.

    If you use benzodiazepines or phenibut, be careful to use them sparingly, as they are not (or should not be) a long-term solution.

  10. #10
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's probably not confidence OR neurochemical imbalance. As is always the case, these are interrelated phenomena and are entirely inseparable.</div>
    Yes in allmost all cases to go togheter, except maybe lack of confidence that can often occur without chemical imbalances.

    But in some cases, confidence and social skills arent the problem and a neurological imbalance is the biggest issue, as in my case.

    Weekends no problems, going to rave's, take tons of drugs, get high as fuck, have fun with some lady's, go out with all your friends etc, however in the week when your not on any drugs you have to refuse going out with them, and what if you just fucked a awesome chick and then wake up with social anxiety. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img]

    All bullshit wich i'm going to abolish 100% [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]

    Meanwhile i'l keep taking drugs and fuck hookers, the good life fella's [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

  11. #11
    Senior Member FunkOdyssey's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MeDieViL @ Aug 23 2010, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes in allmost all cases to go togheter, except maybe lack of confidence that can often occur without chemical imbalances.

    But in some cases, confidence and social skills arent the problem and a neurological imbalance is the biggest issue, as in my case.

    Weekends no problems, going to rave's, take tons of drugs, get high as fuck, have fun with some lady's, go out with all your friends etc, however in the week when your not on any drugs you have to refuse going out with them, and what if you just fucked a awesome chick and then wake up with social anxiety. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img]

    All bullshit wich i'm going to abolish 100% [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]

    Meanwhile i'l keep taking drugs and fuck hookers, the good life fella's [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]</div>

    Is it possible that some portion of your SA symptoms result from a neurochemical rebound effect from the various excesses of your weekends? Downregulation of reward, dopamine receptors, etc? In the hard partying years of my earlier youth, I would be often be quite sullen and withdrawn during the week after abusing recreational substances on the weekend.

    Once I stopped, it was remarkable how my mood and sociability leveled out at a higher baseline than I'd grown accustomed to.
    "Also, can I rig some sort of enema out of household items?" -Tussman

    "I don't have the stamina for a 3-some, and I am a one-pump chump" -Ubiyca

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    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Anyways OP, i can help ya out, what are you looking for, what kind of supplements? Do you want to take pharmaceuticals? Or just nootropics, herbs and stuff like that? And can you explain your issue's a bit more?
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

  13. #13
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FunkOdyssey @ Aug 23 2010, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Is it possible that some portion of your SA symptoms result from a neurochemical rebound effect from the various excesses of your weekends? Downregulation of reward, dopamine receptors, etc? In the hard partying years of my earlier youth, I would be often be quite sullen and withdrawn during the week after abusing recreational substances on the weekend.

    Once I stopped, it was remarkable how my mood and sociability leveled out at a higher baseline than I'd grown accustomed to.</div>
    No, my symptons only improved once i started partying, actually HIGHLY improved because i made tons of friends, and started having tons of fun. I did get comedowns but those were usually feeling tired, brainzaps, maybe depressed (after taking way to much) but my SA level never got worse.

    I actually took a big break last year for 4 months or something from partying, didnt do me any favors at all. Right now i slowed down as i want to keep my receptors sensitive to find a good working regime.
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MeDieViL @ Aug 23 2010, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dopamine agonists like requip can theoretically work because the D2 gene has been associated with extrovertism and people with a high social status have a higher density of the D2 and D3 receptors.


    Full text regarding the D2/D3 binding and social status:
    http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.co...22309009652. pdf

    Stimulants are also considered to be highly effective against social anxiety.

    However, OP what exactly if your brain, do you suffer anxiety itself, does something that calm you down fix you (eg alcohol) or do you need to get stimulated and feel exhausted in social situations.

    Or is the problem just a lack of confidence.</div>

    Here is a detailed description of my condition:

    Whenever I am in a social situation with people I am in some way intimidated by and/or feel like they are judging me and actually care about what they think about me (i.e. girls, bosses, authority figures), I find that it is just extremely hard to express myself and just talk. It's not that I don't have things to say, when I have something to say though, I will start thinking about saying that thing to myself and thinking about whether I should say it, second guessing myself, thinking about what else I could say etc etc, and it is utterly socially paralyzing. Occasionally it is so bad that I will shake if I look the other person in the eye. Sometimes I feel just cognitively clouded and my nervousness slows down my thinking and other thoughts occupy my head so I can't think in order to just communicate straightforwardly as I would when I am interacting with familiar people who I am comfortable with. Recently however I have found that even with people I am familiar with it is hard for me to express myself and just talk. Sometimes it feels like I have hundreds of thoughts passing through my head in an instant and there are very heavy heavy doors preventing those thoughts from becoming language and entering the conversation. At times the thoughts about my inability to contribute to a given social situation will itself occupy all of my cognitive energy. I feel like if I could just control this and stop these self-conscious BS thoughts from taking up all of my brain's energy I could be very extroverted but right now its just so so hard and is frustrating.

    I rarely drink because I do not want to damage my memory/cognition, but on the rare occasion that I do drink, I find it is easier for me to communicate and there is less of that socially imposed cognitive burden/cloud.
    Also, sometimes, when I have lots of caffeine without having had it in a while, I feel as though a huge yolk is lifted from my brain and I am able to think much faster and clearer, feel more confident and worry a lot less. I have gotten used to it and the effects of caffeine are fairly mild now, however.

    I am looking for something that WILL NOT negatively affect my memory/cognition, and ideally positively affect it.

    what would be the ideal (A) short term supplement, to be used about once a week on a need based basis with fast and good results (B ) long term supplement, which would help with this and wouldn't be a problem to take frequently. obviously it would be ideal if (A) = (B ), that is, the supplement most efficacious for short term use would be fine to take frequently, but I realize that with most supplements this is not so.

    What do you think?

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    Senior Member morganpmiller's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FunkOdyssey @ Aug 23 2010, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Is it possible that some portion of your SA symptoms result from a neurochemical rebound effect from the various excesses of your weekends? Downregulation of reward, dopamine receptors, etc? In the hard partying years of my earlier youth, I would be often be quite sullen and withdrawn during the week after abusing recreational substances on the weekend.

    Once I stopped, it was remarkable how my mood and sociability leveled out at a higher baseline than I'd grown accustomed to.</div>

    I was thinking the same thing. A good friend of mine that has never struggled with anxiety said the only time he ever experiences really bad anxiety is after a 3 day drinking binge. He says he feels awful and depressed and needs to stay in otherwise he feels even worse.

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    Senior Member morganpmiller's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MeDieViL @ Aug 23 2010, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, my symptons only improved once i started partying, actually HIGHLY improved because i made tons of friends, and started having tons of fun. I did get comedowns but those were usually feeling tired, brainzaps, maybe depressed (after taking way to much) but my SA level never got worse.

    I actually took a big break last year for 4 months or something from partying, didnt do me any favors at all. Right now i slowed down as i want to keep my receptors sensitive to find a good working regime.</div>

    Are you ever concerned that this lifestyle will leave you in much worse shape in the future than would would be if you toned things down a bit?

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    To the OP,

    I am going to have to break it down to you. No legal supplement is going to give you any noticeable relief for the situations which you mention, you also display symptoms of paranoia in social situations which stem from a lack of confidence. If you want confidence, cocaine or alcohol (better, both together) are your best supplements, as many drawbacks as they have.

    Rewind 15 years back and GHB would have been your best supplement to use. I say supplement because, back then, it was sold legally despite being a psychotropic, a powerful psychotropic actually. Nowadays, the FDA in the US and your local drug monitoring department in your European country are pretty good at zapping off any intentions for new supplemental psychotropics. Some call it the pharma conspiracy, others call it protecting idiots from themselves.

    The best "supplements" which you can use these days are the RC's, basically the amphetamine derivates and similar (tryptamines are too trippy, for lack of a better word). These are powerful psychotropics and, in most cases, lacking safety supporting literature, having had people died from overdoses and even mislabeling. In any event, they are your best bet because they emulate illegal drugs and are legal depending on your jurisdiction.

    Of course, you can also play around with GABA, the -racetams, caffeine and if you feel brave enough, phenibut. I find they do fuck all but then I find ethanol to do fuck all for me and it tastes disgusting. In your case, a doctor's prescription of a benzodiazepine and maybe amphetamine can be your ticket to legal heaven. If not, ethanol is pretty diesel at making people act like fools and women get real horny on that shit.

    Also, don't listen to Medievil, he be crazy fool! (just teasing bro, kind of).

    "I am a man of few words" - Mayor Adam West

  18. #18
    "artiste" graatch's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>No its therapeutic in a certain dose range where it isnt toxic, i'l refer you to the following thread:
    http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/...olution-70691/</div>

    I haven't read any recent updates if they are there, but in terms of safety I don't think this guy's largely conjectural reasoning is too convincing. Not enough -- especially considering how bad of a thing manganese neurotoxicity can be (read: irreversible Parkinsonism).

    He thinks inhaled manganese is probably fundamentally different than oral manganese. It might be the case that there is no toxicity from a 20mg supplemental dose of manganese taken daily ... it may even be likely ... but this is not proven and there is a real lack of data.

    In fact, the claim that only inhaled manganese has been linked to symptoms is categorically false: see http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/ccl/pdfs/reg_d...se_dwreport.pdf for several studies that link neurological symptoms in populations to elevated manganese in drinking water, at estimated exposures that are very close to or within the oral doses being discussed. There may be confounding factors, and perhaps some research is faulty, but the point is that the safety of these protocols are definitely not established.

    I value anecdotal evidence and I'm not inclined to discount their (he and a few others in that thread) positive reports of neurological effects. However, if manganese does have these neurological effects and the suggestion of dopaminergic activity, that should create MORE suspicion, not less, because if it does interact with central dopaminergic systems it could also be, dose-dependently, centrally toxic -- let's be clear that manganism, the toxicity syndrome, also bespeaks involvement with dopaminergic systems. Manganese is a dopamine cofactor and the poster believes this could be the reason for the results he's getting; that might be true, but maybe not, or perhaps this is one factor among several.

    Social anxiety is extremely shitty and disabling, and because of this I think people might be more eager to throw caution to the wind in a case like this. That is unfortunate.
    Mind and Muscle:
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    Even on the second day, the results were already incredible (once again). While sexual energy is higher, the feeling of urgency is greatly reduced. I no longer dream of marrying every average looking woman I look at. I speak with the confidence. I make eye contact. I am less tempted to try my luck with fat chicks. etc, etc, etc.

  19. #19
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (in_ten_city @ Aug 24 2010, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here is a detailed description of my condition:

    Whenever I am in a social situation with people I am in some way intimidated by and/or feel like they are judging me and actually care about what they think about me (i.e. girls, bosses, authority figures), I find that it is just extremely hard to express myself and just talk. It's not that I don't have things to say, when I have something to say though, I will start thinking about saying that thing to myself and thinking about whether I should say it, second guessing myself, thinking about what else I could say etc etc, and it is utterly socially paralyzing. Occasionally it is so bad that I will shake if I look the other person in the eye. Sometimes I feel just cognitively clouded and my nervousness slows down my thinking and other thoughts occupy my head so I can't think in order to just communicate straightforwardly as I would when I am interacting with familiar people who I am comfortable with. Recently however I have found that even with people I am familiar with it is hard for me to express myself and just talk. Sometimes it feels like I have hundreds of thoughts passing through my head in an instant and there are very heavy heavy doors preventing those thoughts from becoming language and entering the conversation. At times the thoughts about my inability to contribute to a given social situation will itself occupy all of my cognitive energy. I feel like if I could just control this and stop these self-conscious BS thoughts from taking up all of my brain's energy I could be very extroverted but right now its just so so hard and is frustrating.

    I rarely drink because I do not want to damage my memory/cognition, but on the rare occasion that I do drink, I find it is easier for me to communicate and there is less of that socially imposed cognitive burden/cloud.
    Also, sometimes, when I have lots of caffeine without having had it in a while, I feel as though a huge yolk is lifted from my brain and I am able to think much faster and clearer, feel more confident and worry a lot less. I have gotten used to it and the effects of caffeine are fairly mild now, however.

    I am looking for something that WILL NOT negatively affect my memory/cognition, and ideally positively affect it.

    what would be the ideal (A) short term supplement, to be used about once a week on a need based basis with fast and good results (B ) long term supplement, which would help with this and wouldn't be a problem to take frequently. obviously it would be ideal if (A) = (B ), that is, the supplement most efficacious for short term use would be fine to take frequently, but I realize that with most supplements this is not so.

    What do you think?</div>
    Well seems you respond to alcohol (personally i dont respond to alcohol at all, my confidence is good i dont give a shit about what ppl think, when i'm completely drunk i give even less of a shit but its of no use as i dont give a shit in the first place, my issue's seem to more dopaminergic in nature).

    Anyway, what about occasional use of benzo's? On benzo's you would be free of social anxiety wich gives you the oppertunity to act normal, social like others wich in turn builds up confidence, and maybe with a high confidence most of your symptons would be counteracted.

    Benzo's can make you dumb however but its only for occasional use.

    Maybe dopamine hypofunctioning and ADD could be the root of your problem, then a ADD diagnosis and the right meds can help too.
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

  20. #20
    Senior Member MeDieViL's Avatar
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    Great info graatch, i havent really looked at the subject closely, i think chrono also posted a few abstracts at the end of the thread will look into it.
    Prophet currently looking for a new job

    Getting rich or dying trying, or might as well let others enjoy my posts made on the limitless pill. But as you know, they are the best.

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