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  1. #1
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    I've read countless threads about methylation and treatments for it. However, one thing is never clearly mentioned: A supplement regimen to correspond and fix this. I am curious as to the dosage of specified supplements to correct and keep methylation in check for a under-methylated individual.

    The following supplements are known to be effective towards under-methylated individuals:
    B6 (P5P)
    B12
    taurine
    GABA
    folic acid
    magensium citrate
    TMG
    sam-e

    Other supplements that could be beneficial:
    inositol and choline
    NAC


    what would be the appropriate dosages for what I'm thinking,
    B6 (P5P), B12, TMG, Sam-E and possibly inositol and choline?

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    SAMe is supposed to be the best methyl donor.



    If you flush from 50 mg of niacin then you probably have high H levels. Normal levels would cause a flush at 100 mg. Low levels can take as much as 250 mg to flush.



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tacticaltrench @ Dec 31 2009, 03:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've read countless threads about methylation and treatments for it. However, one thing is never clearly mentioned: A supplement regimen to correspond and fix this. I am curious as to the dosage of specified supplements to correct and keep methylation in check for a under-methylated individual.



    The following supplements are known to be effective towards under-methylated individuals:

    B6 (P5P)

    B12

    taurine

    GABA

    folic acid

    magensium citrate

    TMG

    sam-e



    Other supplements that could be beneficial:

    inositol and choline

    NAC





    what would be the appropriate dosages for what I'm thinking,

    B6 (P5P), B12, TMG, Sam-E and possibly inositol and choline?</div>
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    Thanks for the informative post, Orthomolecular. This is beneficial for me as well. I have heard that it's best to try the precursors first (P5P, Methylfolate, Methyl-B12, Calcium, Magnesium, TMG/DMG, Methoinine, Zinc, etc.) before trying SAMe (all of these will help recycle the SAMe anyways and make it more efficient = lower SAMe requirement if you want to take it in conjunction with the precursors).

    Also, with adequate precursors (and the methylation working correctly), is taking methionine necessary (assuming that you already get enough protein in your diet)?

    What are your thoughts?
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

  4. #4
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    Question: If I already take beverly super pak multi-vitamins which already includes a B-complex within it, would p5p be necessary to take in addition?

    I'm going to quote something from another place I've been reading recently:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Too many methyl donors, B12, folic acid may produce an excess of methionine/SAMe and low levels of homocysteine available for conversion to cysteine and use in the transsulfuration pathway.

    Too few methyl donors, B12, folic acid may produce a deficiency of methionine/SAMe and consequently high levels of homocysteine. With adequate B6 and magnesium, this could instead lead to excess cysteine.

    Too much magnesium & B6 may produce a deficiency of methionine/SAMe, as well as an excess of cysteine.

    Too little magnesium & B6 could lead to high levels of homocysteine, as well as deficiencies in cysteine for use in the transsulfuration pathway.

    Too much molybdenum can lead to gout and may drag cysteine away from other useful functions such as the formation of glutathione. Glutathione is made from cysteine, glutamate and glycine and is a vital protective detoxification agent.

    Glutathione biosynthesis: {url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione]wikipedia[/url]

    Too little molybdenum leads to a build up of sulphites and low levels of sulfates available to make phenol sulfur transferase. Supplementing with sulfates does not help get rid of sulfites, but will ease the symptoms of phenol intolerance. Sulfites poison the transsulfuration pathway.

    Some of us who are sensitive to sulfites have found that drinking beer and wine, and also eating smoked or preserved meats (like bacon) that are treated with sulfites as a preservative have real problems with energy production, dehydration, and headache after their consumption.

    This is a list of some common methyl donors:

    Here's a list of methyl donors. There may be more I haven't found yet.

    * Methionine (amino acid)
    * Taurine (amino acid containing methionine and cysteine)
    * SAMe (s-adenosyl-methionine)
    * TMG and DMG (trimethylglycine & dimethylglycine) a methylated amino acid
    * Betaine anhydrous/choline
    * Methylcobalamin (Methyl-B12) a methylated form of vitamin B12+
    * Alcohol (ketones = acetone)
    * Acetic acid (vinegar) = acetate

    Yeah, just like P5P is our preferred form for B6, methylcobalamin is our preferred form of B12.

    Overmethylators gotta be REALLY PRUDENT about use of combined methylation agents, as do mild undermethylators that can swing back and forth between over and under methylation, depending on stress, methylation suckout in liver through detoxification, or from cycle blockade of methionine synthase.

    These are sulfate sources we can add to help detox phenol accumulation by low moly:

    * Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate)
    * Homeopathy cell salts: (calcium sulfate, potassium sulfate, sodium sulfate)
    * Methionine, Cysteine, Taurine, SAMe (sulfated amino acids)

    There are at least two separate pathways to methylation:

    1. B12/folic acid pathway - works with sam-e in all cells
    2. TMGbetain to choline pathway - only present in liver

    See this site for useful tidbit info on suluration and nightsweats, thyroid function and liver drug metabolism.

    I have a history of panic attacks late at night. They happen during times of extreme stress or anxiety. Hypoglycemic / blood sugar swings, drinking alcohol, caffeine, can bring them on. If I feel suffocated or I am not getting enough oxygen, it usually leads to panic. They're also triggered by mineral imbalances. Don't supplement with calcium or magnesium in isolation because it does bad things. Check with your physican to see if you have high plasma calcium levels before taking excess. We want balance here.

    If you experience a tight chest, pounding heart, difficulty sleeping and are excessively figety then you are experiencing an excess of magnesium and you need calcium. A dose of calcium (as in calcium HMB) can do wonders for stopping these symptoms. Another way to treat is to consume glass of warm milk, which also has worked every time.

    When you throw out the mineral balance of your blood, your body compensates by leaching minerals from your bone. Calcium is leached, but this takes time. Above around 350mg people can start to experience the effects of magnesium, which include relaxation, hypothyroidism, slowing down of the body's systems, shallow, slow breathing, lethargy, and extreme sleepiness.

    I don't have much of a calcium deficiency, and its usually met through my intake of skim milk and my multimineral/multivitamine supplement. I haven't been supplementing any calcium. One of the signs of excess calcium is calf swelling. I also find that it worsens inflammation reaction..probably because the calcium form was sulfate when I used a supplement with magnesium and biotin in it as well.

    Calcium and magnesium are regulators and are required in the correct ratios of 2:1 calcium:magnesium. When the calcium:magnesium ratio is as 1:1, this can precipitate signs of the body "slowing down": loss of appetite without the benefits of any weight loss, daytime drowsiness, shallow breathing, distrupted sleep. Magnesium is supposed to be calming. Yes, excess leads to shallow breathing that results in hypoxia, a lack of oxygen, at which point the body starts to release adrenalin and go into panic mode. Hypnic jerks are another symptom. They occur when the body misinterprets extreme relaxation for falling or impending mortality and tries to right itself. It can result in a sudden minor rush of adrenaline, disturbing sleep quality.</div>

    I'm sorry, I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer Testiclops question. However, I'd be interested in the answer as well.

  5. #5
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    Some interesting information is also here: http://www.alternativementalhealth.c...es/walshQZ.htm

    And more on what methylation actually is: Anyone who can explain in layman's terms, feel free!

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Mercury causes undermethylation depletion of gluthone (10 grams gluthione pushes work and make you feel GREAT !! )
    Improper methylation leads to diabestes, cancer, MS, autistic like features, and peripheral nerve damage.
    Means your DNA information in your cells are being mis replicated..
    But it can be corrected by supplying proper nutrients in the proper form ro over ride the conversion process. 50% of people are undermethylated and have no clue what is really happening, but it really depends on if there is a genetic mutation with in their cells if it leads to other disaease such as cancer, MS, diabetes.

    ...as for TMG.If you have underactive BHMT yes, but if you have over active NO

    ...PC is to clean out the cell membrane
    Sam-e is diasterous for people over methylated
    Oral gluthione is useless its destroyed once it his the gut.

    ...number one l - cysteine is toxic to the body and will not raise gluthione levels, but increase excessive oxidative stress. NAC will help increase gluthione levels possible. Number 2 people that are undermethylated need to stay away from No2 because they have are being exposed or excessive producing it internally which is reasoin for jammed up methylation cycle. Most people that are undermethylated (leads to cancer) have low tolerance to stress that triggers the mutations.</div>


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>undermethyators have low ceruoplasms and have copper excess. Mainly because of adrenal imbalnces. Best way to start up methyation is to identify the cause. How many cans of tuna fish you eat, are you exposure to heavy metal or enviormental toxins. E2 drives methyation. Low e2 causes hypomethyation as well as elevated e2. Best place to start would be an amino acid profile from great smokies from here It was easily to determine where the imbalances occur at. wither the CBS pathay or the METH SYntthase pathways.
    most bodybuilders under stress respond good to sam-e. If methayation is a problem then idenitify it with proper testing. MY methyation problem stemmed from magneisum defiency from too much ECA and excessive calcium due to amount of protein drinks I consumed. When i figured out the ratio of CA/mg it was like 15 to 1 and never even knew it this caused excessive cortisol which further depelted magneisum, zinc levels and also caused e2 to rise, along with inuslin resistance (shbg was 10).First of all look at alkaline phospotase if it is below 60-70 then look to thyroid /adrenal, magneisum, zinc as problems. List up your complete blood work and see what we can see. Rash is histmaine response from undermethyation because it can not detoxify them and they build up. If you have reaction from wine then molybdenum will help sulfization pathways. Right now my freind you are low on gluthione and that needs to be checked via lvier detoxificaton profile from great smokies to see where liver pathways are blocked.

    Focus on identify altered pathways in liver will retifcy probably 60-80 % of peoples illness and hormonal imbalnaces. With out methyation working properly your aging cellular very rapidly and detoxifcation is impaired as well as adrneals and thyroid..Check spectracell testing for minerals that found alot of my problems and pointed out alot of hidden estrogen imbalnaces later verified by estroesccence test. If you are undermethyated bank on estrogen metabolism being back logged as well in methaytion of bad estrogens


    First identify reason for methyation problems
    1.toxins - xeno estrogens (plastics water, gase fumes, NON alcoholic livers known as nash)
    2.estrogens (altered 2/16 ratio) are primary suspects or even low estrogens
    3. mineral defiecny zinc, mmolybdenum, magnesium, choline,
    4. identify where in homocysteine cycle it is (Methione synthase or CBS)
    5. gut absorption problems dybiosis -leaky gut

    idenitfy blockages
    1. urine AMINOs look for higher levels of cysteine and markers of folate or b-12 defieincy.
    2. neurotranmistters low serotonin, dopamine levels, high histamines
    3 copper imbalnces - hidden or bound copper.
    4. replenish good bacterial and heal intestinal wall

    Do not just shot gun stuf have valid reason. My supplement program is based on spectra-cell mineral testing, genova hormone urine testing, cortisol salvia, quest blood tests.
    I take only what is needed and if i can cut things out each time i making progress.

    Look for low alkaline phosphotase as guide to adrenals and also manegieum, zinc, progestrone defiency, estrogen imbalnaces

    where estrogen goes so does copper. People with high copper hair may be showing a copper dump from high zinc levels so that may be a good thing. moly helps making copper usable to the body. Manganese, moly, zinc, vitamin C for copper chelation.

    where is your homocysteine levels, serum b-12, folic acid?
    if serum folate and b-12 are high then you have methyation problems converting zinc is needed for methy b-12 top be formed. urine amino acid test will will identify where the blockage in the methyation is. Examine insulin levels since this increases the MS pathway. Estrogens increase CBS and suppress MS pathways. I suspect high estrogen levels check e1,e2,e3 via urine testing and then verify with e2 serum.

    for CBS pathway
    600 mgs NAC
    50 mgs P5P BID
    400 mgs magnesium BID
    moly 500 mcg

    for MS
    methyl b-12 5,000 mcgs
    folonic acid 4800 mcgs

    FOR BHMT pathways
    Phosphodyl choline - 98% 300 mgs BID
    TMG -500 mgs BID
    DMG - not sure

    with copper toxicity check for pyrroles - Binding up b-6 and zinc. P5P will over ride this

    serum blood sucks for zinc
    spectracell mineral testing caught my hidden deficiency and hair anayalsis was DEAD ON with problems

    except cell membrane imbalnces EPA/AA ratio if methyation is a problem, with out methyation PC can not be formed affecting acetylcholine levels hence memory

    e2 increases Acetycholine levels and depletes choline from cell membrane and releases arachonsinc acid

    nut shell
    restore cell membrane fluidity - EFA RBC
    check minerals through spectra cell testing.hair
    heal leaky gut - will remove stress from liver by plugging the hole that toxins bleed through
    balance liver pathways - urine AA and organic acids, liver detoxifcation panel.
    check for intestinal dybiosis
    examine methyation




    Sam-e gets things going goes into homocysteine then homocystein can be broken down into 3 ways

    1.CBS - magnesium, p5p, nac
    2. MS - methy b-12, folonic acid
    3. BHMT - TMG and PC

    problem is to find the hole and plug it.
    my hole was in methyation reason being hidden build up of 16 and 4 hydrox and imagnesium,iodine defiency (from not salting my foods for almost 2 decades) causing metabolic blockage and depletion of methyl groups. This was shown with high sarconsine in urine that idenitifed FUNCTIONAL folic acid defiency. I was like WTF i have all this folic acid in my blood but still deficient. Drs were baffled and could not explain it but after dilgenit research it was just telling me I was an undermethyator and nto converting it to its ACTIVE FORM. When I first got sick i pissed out high amounts of xylene and the remedy what glycine even at high dosages it did not work. Upon futher investigation this was idenitfy a screw up in estrogen metabolism and gluthione production. I could not for life of me understand why i felt estrogen dominant but had normal e2 reasdings in the blood.

    Point blank people with low iodine levels are undermethyators due to the fact iodine bleeds out th 16 hydrox into estriol if it does not then you get a build up of 16 hydrox and if your can not methyate you get a back log.

    Think about it what factors affect cancer
    1. alteration of methyation of DNA - CBS and MS, BHMT imbalances due to enviorment, genetics, diet, stress
    2. iodine defiency
    3. fukd estrogen metabolism -due to enviroment or mineral imbalances
    4. alkalinity of the body - goes back to step 1 diet affects DNA polymorphism

    So to wrap it up nicely our own lifestyles and how we chose to deal with the issues of today will affect our chances of getting cancer which has been shown to be prevented and even in some cases reversed through life style changes and nutritional intervention
    Why i mainly emphassis
    1. slow down enjoy life
    2. take time out for your self at least 20 minutes 1-2 times a day and just practice belly breathing and clear mind
    3. wake up with sun goto bed in dark (no computer after sun goes down)
    4. alkaline diet - 80% alkaline 20% acid
    5. 1/2 hour or more of sun a day if not up to 4000 ius vitamin D in the winter time starting in september and get vitamin D levels check should be about 60 or higher for optimal health
    6. find a job that you enjoy and can look forward to every day.
    7. have a super being to believe in because faith is a very powerful thing and this aspect of life is very forgotten these days and is one of th emost important...</div>

  6. #6
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    This last post is considerably over my head (not all of it). The last sentence shows that even people who know a lot about certain things can be delusional in other areas. Maybe if he fixes his methylation...

    But in all seriousness, I've been taking the "shotgun" approach myself. I have no idea where to go for my current health challenges and feel generally let down by the medical establishment over here (Canada). I have to wait months for an appointment only to talk to a doctor who knows of nothing except drugs and surgery, and even then not all that much. So... what's a person to do?

    I'm thinking of going over to The Pfeiffer Treatment Center across the border. This is probably the best option for most people interested in treating methylation problems with mental illness - but they're expensive and I doubt the insurance will cover it. Of course, even despite the obvious implications that come from irregular homocysteine, there is also the possibility that methylation problems don't produce mental illness in some or most people.
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

  7. #7
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Testiclops @ Jan 1 2010, 02:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for the informative post, Orthomolecular. This is beneficial for me as well. I have heard that it's best to try the precursors first (P5P, Methylfolate, Methyl-B12, Calcium, Magnesium, TMG/DMG, Methoinine, Zinc, etc.) before trying SAMe (all of these will help recycle the SAMe anyways and make it more efficient = lower SAMe requirement if you want to take it in conjunction with the precursors).

    Also, with adequate precursors (and the methylation working correctly), is taking methionine necessary (assuming that you already get enough protein in your diet)?

    What are your thoughts?</div>

    I would agree that a conservative approach would have a suspected undermethylators try methionine before SAMe (to play it safe). William Walsh of the Pfieffer Treatment Center has said that SAMe works better in the beginning of treatment. (But that's if you're sure you have a problem with undermethylaion.)

    The other responses have a lot of info that I want to look over carefully. I'm not sure if I see the source for all the info posted. The sources might be useful if the sites have other information.

    I don't know much about holistic doctors in Canada. But deciding on what type of doctor and which particular doctor is an important and complicated decision. But the more you know about nutrition, methylation and even SNPs will make you better qualified to evaluate the best doctor for you.

    Using any kind of nutritional approach should be done with an experienced doctor who can test for possible imbalances created by self-prescribed supplementation. And any time you start to correct deficiencies or imbalances you risk creating new deficiencies and imbalances. It's always a balancing act of getting optimal nutrition for any individual.

    you should expect to take a methionine supplements for the rest of your life as an undermethylator. taking it away from food means you get a concentrated amount you really can't get from food. and, with supplements, you can cycle it which is important.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tacticaltrench @ Jan 1 2010, 03:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Question: If I already take beverly super pak multi-vitamins which already includes a B-complex within it, would p5p be necessary to take in addition?

    I'm going to quote something from another place I've been reading recently:



    I'm sorry, I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer Testiclops question. However, I'd be interested in the answer as well.</div>

    the simple answer is you need both forms of B6. The p-5-p form is probably more important and likely more beneficial but both are essential. Most multis and B complexes usually have only one form.

    The problem with undermethylators taking a multiple or a B complex is that in the beginning they are also likely to get folic acid (not the methyl form either) which can increase histamine levels or interfere with efforts to lower H levels.

    Like the info copied and pasted here that extra folate can become trapped which not the desired outcome.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (orthomolecular @ Jan 1 2010, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the simple answer is you need both forms of B6. The p-5-p form is probably more important and likely more beneficial but both are essential. Most multis and B complexes usually have only one form.

    The problem with undermethylators taking a multiple or a B complex is that in the beginning they are also likely to get folic acid (not the methyl form either) which can increase histamine levels or interfere with efforts to lower H levels.

    Like the info copied and pasted here that extra folate can become trapped which not the desired outcome.</div>
    So what do you recommend? NOW Adam (multivitamin) has b6 as both Pyridoxine HCI and P-5-P as well as Methylcobalamin for b12, but it has folic acid as well. It also has copper and some other nutrients that can apparently be either beneficial or counterproductive? I was thinking of getting this, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea if I am going to try testing/correcting this methylation thing.

    Is it a good idea for an undermethylator (suspected or confirmed) to be taking a multi or would you consider this a "shotgun" approach? I'm already taking some things (another multi, b complex, calc/mag, etc.) that is probably messing with things. Is it better to just get these nutrients for now or go on empty until I can sort things out in a more structured manner? Thanks.
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

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    See the attached file. I had to use the "Way Back Machine" to get it (the site is offline). It talks about methylation in detail and has a lot of info. orthomolecular, you probably know most of this stuff already, but it was an excellent read for me.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

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    Too few methyl donors, B12, folic acid may produce a deficiency of methionine/SAMe and consequently high levels of homocysteine. With adequate B6 and magnesium, this could instead lead to excess cysteine.

    Too much magnesium & B6 may produce a deficiency of methionine/SAMe, as well as an excess of cysteine.

    Too little magnesium & B6 could lead to high levels of homocysteine, as well as deficiencies in cysteine for use in the transsulfuration pathway.

    this is very specific, more than my knowledge right now. I know that you want some kind of balance. If there is an imbalance then you'll have symptoms that you will need to sort out on your own and with your doc.

    Too much molybdenum can lead to gout and may drag cysteine away from other useful functions such as the formation of glutathione. Glutathione is made from cysteine, glutamate and glycine and is a vital protective detoxification agent.

    yes, i had this problem. my little toe was sentsitve to touch from all the molyb i was taking. but i think molyb may be needed if youre taking sulfur supps. and i think that symptom makes it easy to know how much molyb you need b/c too much will cause that problem.

    Glutathione biosynthesis: {url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione]wikipedia[/url]

    Too little molybdenum leads to a build up of sulphites and low levels of sulfates available to make phenol sulfur transferase. Supplementing with sulfates does not help get rid of sulfites, but will ease the symptoms of phenol intolerance. Sulfites poison the transsulfuration pathway.

    Some of us who are sensitive to sulfites have found that drinking beer and wine, and also eating smoked or preserved meats (like bacon) that are treated with sulfites as a preservative have real problems with energy production, dehydration, and headache after their consumption.

    this is true for some people. not all UMs have a problem with sulfites. i have read that molyb has helped some people with allergic asthma problems.

    Here's a list of methyl donors. There may be more I haven't found yet.

    * Methionine (amino acid)
    * Taurine (amino acid containing methionine and cysteine)
    * SAMe (s-adenosyl-methionine)
    * TMG and DMG (trimethylglycine & dimethylglycine) a methylated amino acid
    * Betaine anhydrous/choline
    * Methylcobalamin (Methyl-B12) a methylated form of vitamin B12+
    * Alcohol (ketones = acetone)
    * Acetic acid (vinegar) = acetate

    all info on the web should be taken with a grain of salt. i dont think taurine contains methionine.

    thats interesting about booze because ive read it lowers H levels. ive seen some people post about how they feel better after a night of drinking.

    Yeah, just like P5P is our preferred form for B6, methylcobalamin is our preferred form of B12.

    Overmethylators gotta be REALLY PRUDENT about use of combined methylation agents, as do mild undermethylators that can swing back and forth between over and under methylation, depending on stress, methylation suckout in liver through detoxification, or from cycle blockade of methionine synthase.

    These are sulfate sources we can add to help detox phenol accumulation by low moly:

    * Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate)
    * Homeopathy cell salts: (calcium sulfate, potassium sulfate, sodium sulfate)
    * Methionine, Cysteine, Taurine, SAMe (sulfated amino acids)

    ive used (classical) homeopathic remedies for many years. this is the first iv heard about tissue salts containing sulfate helping those with sulfite problems. my limited understanding of cell salts is that you look up what each one helps with and it isnt the same symptoms as that mineral deficiency. its not like taking supplements, its more complicated.


    There are at least two separate pathways to methylation:

    1. B12/folic acid pathway - works with sam-e in all cells
    2. TMGbetain to choline pathway - only present in liver

    See this site for useful tidbit info on suluration and nightsweats, thyroid function and liver drug metabolism.

    I have a history of panic attacks late at night. They happen during times of extreme stress or anxiety. Hypoglycemic / blood sugar swings, drinking alcohol, caffeine, can bring them on. If I feel suffocated or I am not getting enough oxygen, it usually leads to panic. They're also triggered by mineral imbalances. Don't supplement with calcium or magnesium in isolation because it does bad things. Check with your physican to see if you have high plasma calcium levels before taking excess. We want balance here.

    If you experience a tight chest, pounding heart, difficulty sleeping and are excessively figety then you are experiencing an excess of magnesium and you need calcium. A dose of calcium (as in calcium HMB) can do wonders for stopping these symptoms. Another way to treat is to consume glass of warm milk, which also has worked every time.

    When you throw out the mineral balance of your blood, your body compensates by leaching minerals from your bone. Calcium is leached, but this takes time. Above around 350mg people can start to experience the effects of magnesium, which include relaxation, hypothyroidism, slowing down of the body's systems, shallow, slow breathing, lethargy, and extreme sleepiness.

    I don't have much of a calcium deficiency, and its usually met through my intake of skim milk and my multimineral/multivitamine supplement. I haven't been supplementing any calcium. One of the signs of excess calcium is calf swelling. I also find that it worsens inflammation reaction..probably because the calcium form was sulfate when I used a supplement with magnesium and biotin in it as well.

    Calcium and magnesium are regulators and are required in the correct ratios of 2:1 calcium:magnesium. When the calcium:magnesium ratio is as 1:1, this can precipitate signs of the body "slowing down": loss of appetite without the benefits of any weight loss, daytime drowsiness, shallow breathing, distrupted sleep. Magnesium is supposed to be calming. Yes, excess leads to shallow breathing that results in hypoxia, a lack of oxygen, at which point the body starts to release adrenalin and go into panic mode. Hypnic jerks are another symptom. They occur when the body misinterprets extreme relaxation for falling or impending mortality and tries to right itself. It can result in a sudden minor rush of adrenaline, disturbing sleep quality.

    [/quote]
    ive known about more than one hitadelic who had sweating issues and likely excess adrenaline problems. Larry Wilson says that excess copper causes bioUNavailable calcium. this high CA causes the adrenaline problem (sweating, anxiety, insomnia, etc).

    balancing copper and zinc is critical. some high H types may need copper but some may be CU bioUNavailable (deficient and toxic). this is where a dcotor MAY be able to help.

    histadelics need calcium but some can have a problem with hypercalcemia (high CA on a blood test, but possibly bioUnavailable CA which is only seen in a hair analysis).
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    Yeah.. I'm weary about the folic acid, at least until I get some things verified.

    There is a Pharma company that has put together these "medical foods." I'll have to check if insurance will cover these prescriptions.

    Each Deplin® tablet contains:

    * Folic Acid as L-methylfolate: 7.5mg

    Each Metanx® tablet contains:

    * Folic Acid as L-methylfolate: 2.8mg
    * B6 as Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate: 25mg
    * B12 as Methylcobalamin: 2mg

    Each Cerefolin®NAC tablet contains:

    * Folic Acid as L-methylfolate: 5.6mg
    * B12 as Methylcobalamin: 2mg
    * N-acetylcysteine: 600mg
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

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    So would NAC hurt? I see we are talking about cysteine and I'm so ignorant to all this that I'm not sure if its related.

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    NAC is supposed to be the most powerful and potent antioxidant in the body that dramatically reduces oxidative stress within the cells of the body. Basically, a cell detoxifier.

    It seems to be comparable to Co-Q 10 if you add in green tea to the mix as far as anti-oxidants go.

    I am not sure how it relates to methylation, however, I do know that Vitamin C should be taken along with NAC because it can form kidney stones, again, not sure how the process works. Just know the basics here.

    My suggested supplement list to start with is the following (Please comment and opinionate):
    (Daily)
    TMG - 500mg
    Beverly Super Pak - 1 pack http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=851
    NAC - 600mg
    P5P - 1 tab

    (Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 17 mg 1000%
    Coenzyme Vitamin B-6 33 mg 1650%
    Magnesium 100 mg 25% )


    SAM-e - 200mg
    Methyl B12 - Methylcobalamin 1mg
    Vitamin C - 2g
    Taurine - 5g

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tacticaltrench @ Jan 1 2010, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>NAC is supposed to be the most powerful and potent antioxidant in the body that dramatically reduces oxidative stress within the cells of the body. Basically, a cell detoxifier.

    It seems to be comparable to Co-Q 10 if you add in green tea to the mix as far as anti-oxidants go.

    I am not sure how it relates to methylation, however, I do know that Vitamin C should be taken along with NAC because it can form kidney stones, again, not sure how the process works. Just know the basics here.

    My suggested supplement list to start with is the following (Please comment and opinionate):
    (Daily)
    TMG - 500mg
    Beverly Super Pak - 1 pack http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=851
    NAC - 600mg
    P5P - 1 tab

    (Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 17 mg 1000%
    Coenzyme Vitamin B-6 33 mg 1650%
    Magnesium 100 mg 25% )


    SAM-e - 200mg
    Methyl B12 - Methylcobalamin 1mg
    Vitamin C - 2g
    Taurine - 5g</div>

    is there a reason youre not taking any calcium? more calcium would probably require more magnesium.

    cysteine is good for detoxing. but i dont think it can take the place of methionine. methionine is one of the essential sulfur containing aminos.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    I've always thought SAM-e and methionine were interchangeable. SAM-e =S-adenosyl-L-methionine

    NAC, since being an anti-oxidant, would also lower histamine levels as do all anti-oxidants. SO Vitamin C would also contribute to lowering histamine levels.

    Methionine and cysteine cycles determine GABA levels. So maybe checking the GABA level would be beneficial or supplementing with GABA perhaps?

    I never thought it'd be necessary to take both but I could be wrong.

    That's a great note on the calcium suggestion. I was thinking 100% was all that was needed but your right. Increased calcium would be necessary. What type of calcium would be suggested? (carbonate, citrate, coral, etc?)

    Do you happen to know how the roles of sulfur amino acids in the TS and methionone cycles, via taurine and glutathione are attributed to insulin sensitivity?

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    All I know is that insulin requires sulfur. I've always thought that low sulfur levels play a role in the development of diabetes. I haven't looked any further into why that is and how it may relate to a particular methylation pathway.

    I'm not up on the essential and non-essential sulfur aminos. I'm pretty sure that taurine is non-essential. So I assume cysteine is essential. I know methionine is essential.

    I think cysteine supps might help reduce the amount of methionine needed. But I don't think of them as interchangeable.

    I think calcium citrate is a good basic low cost CA supp.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tacticaltrench @ Jan 1 2010, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've always thought SAM-e and methionine were interchangeable. SAM-e =S-adenosyl-L-methionine

    NAC, since being an anti-oxidant, would also lower histamine levels as do all anti-oxidants. SO Vitamin C would also contribute to lowering histamine levels.

    Methionine and cysteine cycles determine GABA levels. So maybe checking the GABA level would be beneficial or supplementing with GABA perhaps?

    I never thought it'd be necessary to take both but I could be wrong.

    That's a great note on the calcium suggestion. I was thinking 100% was all that was needed but your right. Increased calcium would be necessary. What type of calcium would be suggested? (carbonate, citrate, coral, etc?)

    Do you happen to know how the roles of sulfur amino acids in the TS and methionone cycles, via taurine and glutathione are attributed to insulin sensitivity?</div>
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.Tell them something new and they will hate you for it. George Monbiot

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    Whats TMG, I know its a another name for something but forgot what. Also is methionone cheaper to take than same? Same is pretty expensive and I didn't feel much with taking it.

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    Perhaps, you need more methyl donors to transport it throughout your body. Try taking some methylated B Vitamins to help distribute it.

    TMG=Tri Methyl Glycine

    Another name is Anhydrous Betaine

    Eat alot of beets if you want to take it in naturally.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tacticaltrench @ Jan 1 2010, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>NAC is supposed to be the most powerful and potent antioxidant in the body that dramatically reduces oxidative stress within the cells of the body. Basically, a cell detoxifier.

    It seems to be comparable to Co-Q 10 if you add in green tea to the mix as far as anti-oxidants go.

    I am not sure how it relates to methylation, however, I do know that Vitamin C should be taken along with NAC because it can form kidney stones, again, not sure how the process works. Just know the basics here.

    My suggested supplement list to start with is the following (Please comment and opinionate):
    (Daily)
    TMG - 500mg
    Beverly Super Pak - 1 pack http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=851
    NAC - 600mg
    P5P - 1 tab

    (Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 17 mg 1000%
    Coenzyme Vitamin B-6 33 mg 1650%
    Magnesium 100 mg 25% )


    SAM-e - 200mg
    Methyl B12 - Methylcobalamin 1mg
    Vitamin C - 2g
    Taurine - 5g</div>
    That's a lot of B6, no? You're already getting 150 mg from the Beverly Super Pak and you're taking 1 P5P tab (not sure how much is in there). Apparently taking over 200 mg for extended periods of time can cause some problems. As far as methylation, excessive amounts might cause too much conversion to cysteine via the transsulfation pathway? Theoretically, it seems like a good idea not to overdo the B6, whereas with B12 and folate (in methylated forms) it might be okay to overdo it somewhat since the pathway is circular?
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Aug 3 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now, please stop acting like a douche bag and try to understand your own nature.</div>

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