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  1. #1
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    A friend was recommended by his doctor to add lemon juice to his water (among other precautions) to prevent kidney stones. He and I were discussing whether store bought bottled lemon juice from concentrate would be as good as the real thing (juice squeezed from fresh lemons) in this particular case. So I went down to the local supermarket and picked up a bottle of lemon juice from concentrate, whose ingredients read:

    Lemon Juice From Concentrate (Water, Lemon Juice Concentrate), Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Bisulfite and Lemon Oil.

    Lemon oil sounds perfectly fine, but would Sodium Benzoate or Sodium Bisulfite interfere with the alkalinizing of the urine (which is what the role of the lemon juice is) in any way? If one were to use a large amount of lemon juice from concentrate, would the Sodium Benzoate and Sodium Bisulfite add up to significant amounts to cause a problem at all?

    Thanks in advance
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    Senior Member Jinx Me's Avatar
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    My concern is the plastic bottle. Acid foods (or worse, liquids) stored in plastics.... ugh.
    Kicking ass is my comfort food

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jinx Me @ Dec 14 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My concern is the plastic bottle. Acid foods (or worse, liquids) stored in plastics.... ugh.</div>

    That should not be a concern. I was looking at another place today and the same product is available -under a different brand name- in a glass bottle as well. So if it turns out that the two preservatives are not too much of a problem, we can always get the glass bottle.
    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Its the citrate you are looking for so it won't matter too much if its fresh or from concentrate.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    I still don't understand this purported "alkalizing" effect of highly acidic substances like lemon juice / vinegar. There's some video of a guy trying to explain it away to conjugate bases and other ionic compounds (non-acid). I'll admit it's been a long time since I went over this stuff, but my understanding is that a weak acid will generally be dissociated to H<sup>+</sup> + conjugate base when the pKa < pH of the solution, thereby increasing the hydrogen ion concentration and lowering the pH.

    Now it's important to note that urine pH is generally more acidic than blood pH, therefore a weak acid that doesn't affect urine pH could theoretically still be acidifying the blood.

    Acetic acid: pka 4.75
    Ascorbic acid: pka1 4.2 pka2 ll.6


    However, it does seem to be slightly alkalinizing the blood in this fairly recent study. I don't see how a weak acid would do that, unless you chalk it up to the K-ascorbate like that internet video guy. I would imagine, however, that drinking a liquid would increase urine output and thereby "dilute" the acid. Because pH is a measure of concentration, this would seem likely to increase the urine pH without truly "alkalinizing" it or neutralizing any of the acid.

    Where's HL? He's the chem teacher.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Arch Esp Urol. 2005 Dec;58(10):1087-92.
    In vitro and in vivo study of effect of lemon juice on urinary lithogenesis.
    Oussama A, Touhami M, Mbarki M.

    Laboratoire de Spectrpchimie Appliquée et Environnement, Unité d'Urolithiase, Faculty of Sciences and Technices of Béni-Mellal, University CADI AYYAD, Morocco. LSCAE@fstbm.ac.ma
    OBJECTIVES: The diversity of experimental results obtained in the study of the effect of citrus juice on urinary lithogenicity moved us to study the effect of these substances in vitro and in-vivo. The in-vitro study is based on the turbidimetric method on calcium oxalate crystallization. In vivo, we studied the effect of lemon juice consumption on urinary chemistry and we tested it on calcium oxalate crystallization in natural urine. METHODS: The formation of crystals is induced by the addition of the oxalate and calcium solution. Optical density (OD) is measured in a closed system at physiological conditions. The effects of the various juices of lemon, was evaluated by the addition of 50 ml of juice. A male volunteer with no history of kidney stone participated in this study, by lemon juice ingestion. The pH, concentration of oxalate, calcium and citrate were determined before and after ingestion and urine was freshly analyzed by microscopy. RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS: In synthetic urine, the inhibition rate of calcium oxalate crystallization increases gradually with the lemon juice concentration. In natural urine, we noted that the kinetics of crystallization of calcium oxalate, before and after ingestion of lemon juice, are comparable. In vivo, after ingestion, a small increase in mean urinary pH (from 6.7 +/- 0.1 to 6.9 +/- 0.1) was noted. Indeed, oxalate calcium means and citrate excretion increased during this period with 33.41%, 6.85% and 3.53% respectively. This increase in the oxalate excretion is probably explained by the conversion of the exogenous ascorbic acid contained in the lemon juice. These results show that the lemon juice presents an important inhibitory effect in vitro. The ingestion of the lemon juice seems to dissipate a effect of great quantity of citrates which in turn increases the excretion of oxalates. The presence of these two elements simultaneously: citrate and oxalate compensate for their opposite effect.

    PMID: 16482864 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]</div>

  6. #6
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    I don't know about "alkalizing" but the study you posted confirms that lemon juice increases oxalate excretion which is what might make this a prophylactic against Ca-oxalate stone formation.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Dec 15 2009, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Its the citrate you are looking for so it won't matter too much if its fresh or from concentrate.</div>

    Any opinions on consuming a lot of Sodium Benzoate or Sodium Bisulfite from a general health perspective Benson?

    Also, is citrate generally stable? Will it still be useful after spending a year or two in a bottle in a warehouse?


    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sub7 @ Dec 15 2009, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, is citrate generally stable? Will it still be useful after spending a year or two in a bottle in a warehouse?</div>

    The citrate is going to come from the metabolism of citric acid in the lemon juice which, as far as I know, is shelf stable.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    bump for
    "Any opinions on consuming a lot of Sodium Benzoate or Sodium Bisulfite from a general health?"
    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sub7 @ Dec 16 2009, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>bump for
    "Any opinions on consuming a lot of Sodium Benzoate or Sodium Bisulfite from a general health?"</div>

    I think consuming a lot of sodium bisulfite would make you pretty unpopular.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Senior Member methodice's Avatar
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    LMAO
    <span style="color:#FF0000">Latest tube recs</span>: <span style="color:#0000FF">TP?</span> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-i1cJh7L6I
    <span style="color:#FF0000">The last civilized bastion of truth and scientific reason declares you don't need to workout, just have good nutritional habits. The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn</span>

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    Bingo! Im a stone sufferer and this is correct. The alkalizing effects assist in kidney stone prevention to a degree but that's assuming your current environment is acidic as well as that being the culprit. Whereas citric acid, as Benson mentioned, actually somehoww disables the formation of stones!

    I got sick of sucking down shorts of lemon concentrate 3x/day and made sure I switched any supps I was taking to the citrate variety where available and more importantly, started taking these:

    http://drclarkstore.com/citricacid.html

    Citric Acid is dirt cheap but I couldnt find anyone else that sold these capped and I dont want to cap sh*t. LOL


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Dec 15 2009, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Its the citrate you are looking for so it won't matter too much if its fresh or from concentrate.</div>

  13. #13
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    Thank you very much Whacked,

    Capped citric acid... that is a surprise. Wouldn't have guessed they sold such a thing.

    Are you aware of any downside -over the long run- to taking citric acid? It should not really be different from eating lots of lemon but just wondering...


    EDIT: I forgot to ask one thing. Has Whacked or anyone else looked into using baking soda for prevention of kidney stones? On the one hand the bicarbonate component in baking soda would neutralize/alkalinize, but then there is sodium in the baking soda, which is not good for kidney stone sufferers. So I am wondering if the amount of sodium one would consume from baking soda for the prevention of kidney stones would defeat the purpose and create problems of its own.

    Thanks to all
    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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    what about gallbladder stones? my mother keeps going to the emergency room and its supposed to be from her gastric bypass but I am thinking her adderall is a contributor. They told her its from fatty foods, but she eats fruit and yogurt all day and is thin now.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (simpllyhuge @ Dec 21 2009, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>what about gallbladder stones? my mother keeps going to the emergency room and its supposed to be from her gastric bypass but I am thinking her adderall is a contributor. They told her its from fatty foods, but she eats fruit and yogurt all day and is thin now.</div>

    Altogether different etiology from urinary stones.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    this is a pretty good thread about kidney health,

    http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?sho...7&hl=kidney
    For all your Skin Care Supplements and Skin health visit Skin Care Resources

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    "Server not found"

    could you link the same thread again please?
    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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    Yes, it came up many times in my dearches when I was out to find an alkalinizing product. That said, Citric Acid serves two purposes: Alkalinizes very effectively and disrupts the formation of stones. IMO, why bother with baking soda which only serves one of those purposes.

    Good luck

    Hey Benson: Does citric acid have to be attached to a salt!?!? The contents of my bottle says citric acid. It does not specifcy sodium or potassium or otherwise. Im a wrong to assume citric acid acan indeed be sold as such = citric acid only with no salt added/attached ??? A buddy of mine said the citric acid has to be attached to some form of salt. Help - thanks



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sub7 @ Dec 20 2009, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: I forgot to ask one thing. Has Whacked or anyone else looked into using baking soda for prevention of kidney stones? On the one hand the bicarbonate component in baking soda would neutralize/alkalinize, but then there is sodium in the baking soda, which is not good for kidney stone sufferers. So I am wondering if the amount of sodium one would consume from baking soda for the prevention of kidney stones would defeat the purpose and create problems of its own.

    Thanks to all</div>

  19. #19
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whacked @ Dec 23 2009, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey Benson: Does citric acid have to be attached to a salt!?!? The contents of my bottle says citric acid. It does not specifcy sodium or potassium or otherwise.</div>

    It doesn't have to be a salt but potassium citrate is often used for kidney stone control and you can find it in that form easily enough...NOW makes a Kcitrate cap I think...

    Interesting use during ketogenic diets...I was not aware that keto diet were pro-stone formation...

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90721163120.htm
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





  20. #20
    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    Also this for the OP...orange juice beats lemon for stone prevention...
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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