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    I have often heard here and there vague comments about causal connection between malfunctioning vagus nerve and anxiety. As I strongly suspect such one underlies my own problems with anxiety, I have always been curious about it. So I decided to dig a bit more into this topic, but I couldn't find anything especially helpful. Even wiki goes quite general desribing vagus nerve stimulation as depression/anxiety treatment option. Is anyone here able to shed at least some more light onto the connection between two or at least provide reference to a good source on the matter. Thanks guys.

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    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    All I can add to this conversation is that when I quit smoking the last time (hopefully final time [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] I became very overwhelmed with an excessive urge to yawn all the time. I believe my studies led me to the vagus nerve and dopamine but I don't remember what I came up with exactly.

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    Posture and muscular fluidity.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sprinkles @ Oct 9 2009, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Posture and muscular fluidity.</div>

    can you elaborate please
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    there are some possible answers here:

    http://www.clinicalpsychologist.com/clinic...-Vagal1_frm.htm
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeadDoc @ Oct 13 2009, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>there are some possible answers here:

    http://www.clinicalpsychologist.com/clinic...-Vagal1_frm.htm</div>

    That is not a bad link but can someone please inform us all about vagus nerve stimulation in general? I have read about it here and there for a while but the discussion is too technical really if one goes to a medical site. I am more interested in practical applications, and there seem to be many. Things ranging from holding your breath to dunking your head in cold water to meditation seem to have an impact on the vagus nerve but has anyone been able to use either any of these or other methods with success?

    thanks in advance
    A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he is not in love with her...
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    Background:
    The vagus nerve is responsible for activating the parasympathetic nervous systems (PNS), responsible for the rest-and-digest response that promotes restoration of our body (homeostasis). This is the opposite of the sympathetic nervous system (SPS), which is responsible for the fight-or-flight response (and thus anxiety), which promotes preparing our body for a threat (allostasis).

    One-Time Tricks:
    There are secret "vasovagal maneuvers" you can learn in order to quickly/strongly activate your vagus nerve. The best one is to basically bear down and squeeze your abs/intestines as if you're having a bowel movement on the toilet, or the valsalva maneuver (e.g. breathing against a closed glottus), or emmersing your face in cold water (i.e. mammalian diving reflex). I've tested these--when I wear my heart rate monitor, my heart rate drops 10-20bpm within a few seconds, which is pretty impressive.

    However, you probably can't and shouldn't do these maneuvers all the time, so it provides only a temporary effect. But it can be useful for interrupting an anxious cycle (particularly a panic attack), and centering one's self, so that you can chose not to take avoidant action.

    Long-Term Tricks:
    Now you can learn a breathing exercise to promote vagal activity and PNS dominance over SNS dominance (I've written a scientific paper on this). It's based on the premise that inhalation inhibits the vagus nerve and exhalation activates it. So you want to breathe in a way where you spend 5x more time exhaling than inhaling (while keeping the volume of air exchanged the same in both phases). This is the type of breathing encouraged by biofeedback devices like the StressEraser. It doesn't eliminate anxiety altogether, but can certainly shift the focus back to relaxation, especially if practiced with mindfulness of the breath.
    Sonic @ May 19 2009, 01:02 PM:
    "Hey buddy, The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn."

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    Senior Member deekz's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Oct 14 2009, 07:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Background:
    The vagus nerve is responsible for activating the parasympathetic nervous systems (PNS), responsible for the rest-and-digest response that promotes restoration of our body (homeostasis). This is the opposite of the sympathetic nervous system (SPS), which is responsible for the fight-or-flight response (and thus anxiety), which promotes preparing our body for a threat (allostasis).

    One-Time Tricks:
    There are secret "vasovagal maneuvers" you can learn in order to quickly/strongly activate your vagus nerve. The best one is to basically bear down and squeeze your abs/intestines as if you're having a bowel movement on the toilet, or the valsalva maneuver (e.g. breathing against a closed glottus), or emmersing your face in cold water (i.e. mammalian diving reflex). I've tested these--when I wear my heart rate monitor, my heart rate drops 10-20bpm within a few seconds, which is pretty impressive.

    However, you probably can't and shouldn't do these maneuvers all the time, so it provides only a temporary effect. But it can be useful for interrupting an anxious cycle (particularly a panic attack), and centering one's self, so that you can chose not to take avoidant action.

    Long-Term Tricks:


    Now you can learn a breathing exercise to promote vagal activity and PNS dominance over SNS dominance (I've written a scientific paper on this). It's based on the premise that inhalation inhibits the vagus nerve and exhalation activates it. So you want to breathe in a way where you spend 5x more time exhaling than inhaling (while keeping the volume of air exchanged the same in both phases). This is the type of breathing encouraged by biofeedback devices like the StressEraser. It doesn't eliminate anxiety altogether, but can certainly shift the focus back to relaxation, especially if practiced with mindfulness of the breath.</div>




    I've noticed my heart rate goes WAY down when i hold my breath. I tested it going from 75-79 down to 60.

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    Senior Member jwwilliams002's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Oct 14 2009, 06:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Long-Term Tricks:
    Now you can learn a breathing exercise to promote vagal activity and PNS dominance over SNS dominance (I've written a scientific paper on this). It's based on the premise that inhalation inhibits the vagus nerve and exhalation activates it. So you want to breathe in a way where you spend 5x more time exhaling than inhaling (while keeping the volume of air exchanged the same in both phases). This is the type of breathing encouraged by biofeedback devices like the StressEraser. It doesn't eliminate anxiety altogether, but can certainly shift the focus back to relaxation, especially if practiced with mindfulness of the breath.</div>

    Hey Soul Seeker, that paper sounds pretty interesting, is it up anywhere on the net? If so, I'd like to check it out..
    Where do you move when what you're moving from is yourself? - MM

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    Soul Seeker you seem to be quite knowledgable, I would love to have a look at your paper either.
    Can week vagus nerve activity be caused by spinal/vertebral deformations as I suspect is my case? Anybody has or know someone who underwent vagus nerve stimulation procedure and to what results as far as anxiety is concerned? Is there a relevant medical test that can detect if vagus nerve is really what underlies my anxiety issues?

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    In lieu of dunking one's face in cold water, any water in a spray bottle sprayed on the face has the same effect through evaporation.
    For all your Skin Care Supplements and Skin health visit Skin Care Resources

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    I haven't published the paper yet. It's an empirically-derived hypothesis at this point, based on a lot of research I've reviewed. However, I'd have to run an experiment to conclusively prove the concept. But I have two more papers I'm working on that need to be published first, so that one's a low priority. I'll dig it up and post some citations in the future.

    I have to say though. I was really excited about using our understanding of the vagus nerve and PNS to treat anxiety last year, but my enthusiasm has worn off. Using vagal maneuvers are temporary, and actually can be harmful if used excessively (there's a case study in the medical literature about this). Plus, isn't it a ridiculous idea to spray yourself in the face with water or pretend to poop every time you're anxious? I mean, really, stop and visualize that. If a girl I was dating found out I did this, I think my alpha male status would drop to delta status (if she didn't drop me first, haha).

    That's why I'm really a big believer in mindfulness-based approaches to anxiety now. There's too much of a focus on trying to reduce physiological arousal, when really, it's too difficult to control. In fact, the real problem is our secondary appraisals/interpretations of our feelings ("oh shit, my heart is racing again, is there something wrong with my mind/body? Am I going to die early? I hate this feeling, etc."). Learning to mindfully observe and accept unwanted feelings, instead of letting them control our behavior and dictate our lives, is the only effective long-term solution and path to a peaceful life that I know of, both scientifically and personally.
    Sonic @ May 19 2009, 01:02 PM:
    "Hey buddy, The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn."

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    Senior Member FunkOdyssey's Avatar
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    Are you trying to tell me vipassana > water bottle to the face? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img]
    "Also, can I rig some sort of enema out of household items?" -Tussman

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Oct 14 2009, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>(there's a case study in the medical literature about this)</div>
    You've piqued my interest...

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Oct 14 2009, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's why I'm really a big believer in mindfulness-based approaches to anxiety now. There's too much of a focus on trying to reduce physiological arousal, when really, it's too difficult to control. In fact, the real problem is our secondary appraisals/interpretations of our feelings ("oh shit, my heart is racing again, is there something wrong with my mind/body? Am I going to die early? I hate this feeling, etc."). Learning to mindfully observe and accept unwanted feelings, instead of letting them control our behavior and dictate our lives, is the only effective long-term solution and path to a peaceful life that I know of, both scientifically and personally.</div>

    I agree and disagree with this. With the right caveats it's fine, but on its own it veers dangerously close to the insight -> change fallacy. I tried to bring that up in another thread but didn't communicate it clearly. To use an analogy: if someone wants to be a jiu jitsu fighter, then no amount of either ridding himself of anxiety OR talking himself through it is going to prevent the clumsy awkwardness of the first few steps. No matter what mental techniques are used, the neurological underpinnings of the desired behavior have to be established, and can only be established through clumsy, awkward trial-and-error. In the other thread, someone mentioned 'social anxiety' that valium 'paradoxically' wasn't helping; I wanted to respond something like, "it's not conversation skills in a pill..." From a different angle, it really isn't about conversational skills, either, which is what makes it difficult, but I don't want to speak dogmatically from my theoretical biases.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dashforce @ Oct 15 2009, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You've piqued my interest...</div>

    I can't find the original case study I found about a patient using vagal maneuvers chronically. But I ran across another one where two individuals (with underlying predispositions) developed neurological complications by doing valsalva maneuvers inadvertently during sit-ups. It's rare (n=2), but warrants caution:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11833035

    Neurologic complications of sit-ups associated with the Valsalva maneuver: 2 case reports.
    Uber-Zak LD, Venkatesh YS.

    Dept of Neurology, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA 92354, USA.

    We present 2 cases of potentially catastrophic neurologic consequences occurring in healthy individuals engaged in sit-up exercises. Two young healthy men were engaged in sit-ups when one developed a stroke and the other developed a spinal epidural hematoma. The Valsalva maneuver involved in the sit-up exercise can produce supraphysiologic increases in blood pressure, which can lead to vascular injury and serious neurologic consequences. Proper breathing should be encouraged and patients with known predisposing factors should avoid such exercises. Prompt recognition of neurologic signs and symptoms during exercise can be life saving. This is the first report of the neurologic complications of sit-ups. Copyright 2002 by the American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine and the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation</div>
    Sonic @ May 19 2009, 01:02 PM:
    "Hey buddy, The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn."

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Section 8 @ Oct 15 2009, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree and disagree with this. With the right caveats it's fine, but on its own it veers dangerously close to the insight -> change fallacy. I tried to bring that up in another thread but didn't communicate it clearly. To use an analogy: if someone wants to be a jiu jitsu fighter, then no amount of either ridding himself of anxiety OR talking himself through it is going to prevent the clumsy awkwardness of the first few steps. No matter what mental techniques are used, the neurological underpinnings of the desired behavior have to be established, and can only be established through clumsy, awkward trial-and-error. In the other thread, someone mentioned 'social anxiety' that valium 'paradoxically' wasn't helping; I wanted to respond something like, "it's not conversation skills in a pill..." From a different angle, it really isn't about conversational skills, either, which is what makes it difficult, but I don't want to speak dogmatically from my theoretical biases.</div>

    I'm curious about your post, since I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same thing. I agree with your jiu jutsu analogy, but I make a distinction between social anxiety and social skills. Yes, no mindfulness or anxiolytic technique is going to make you a good conversationalist, because that's a skill development issue. However, I think that learning not to let anxiety (the emotion) dictate your behavior (initiating/maintaining a conversation), will lead to putting yourself in social situations more, which will lead to skill development in the long-term. Perhaps you can clarify a bit what you mean?
    Sonic @ May 19 2009, 01:02 PM:
    "Hey buddy, The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn."

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoulSeeker @ Oct 15 2009, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm curious about your post, since I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same thing. I agree with your jiu jutsu analogy, but I make a distinction between social anxiety and social skills. Yes, no mindfulness or anxiolytic technique is going to make you a good conversationalist, because that's a skill development issue. However, I think that learning not to let anxiety (the emotion) dictate your behavior (initiating/maintaining a conversation), will lead to putting yourself in social situations more, which will lead to skill development in the long-term. Perhaps you can clarify a bit what you mean?</div>

    I'm glad you guys brought this topic up, as it's something I've been thinking about for quite some time now.

    If I understand S8 correctly, I think you have his point down. Controlling anxiety during an activity and performing the activity itself are two different abilities, and if you master the former you have not necessarily mastered the latter.

    I've been reading up on Acceptance and Commitment Theory (ACT), and it constantly talks about welcoming and accepting anxiety during activites rather than trying to prevent it. For instance, the mother commits to finally taking her kids out to play while accepting her feelings of anxiety and laziness. But what if your ability to perform an activity hinges upon whether or not you're feeling anxious? To take your example, let's say someone usually great social skills, but if he's anxious then his brain freezes and whatever social skills he has go out the window. He may decide to accept his anxiety and commit to chatting up the cute girl sitting next to him, but his SNS explodes and he can't think of a thing to say. In this case, it makes sense for him to attempt to control his anxiety (assuming that this is possible), since anxiety is the limiting factor in his social abilities.

    ACT and CBT both have data suggesting that they reduce anxiety. They use entirely different methods, though, and it seems that the ACT authors I've read like to claim that many CBT techniques just don't work. But I think there's more evidence out there backing CBT at this point. So if your goal is to minimize anxiety during a particular activity, what can you do short of taking benzos?

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    Some of us may not believe that vagus nerve stimulation (vns) is beneficial in reducing anxiety. But for those who wish to understand this phenomenon more thoroughly, I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic with some questions:

    When you dunk your face in cold water, is the heart rate reduced through vns or is there is a different mechanism involved?

    If it is indeed vns that is at play, would splashing cold water on your face really replicate the same effect? Wouldn't the cooling of the face be too gradual to have the same effect?

    I have often observed nervous people tend to hold their breaths. Is there any evidence that this may be the body's attempt to relieve the anxiety via vns?

    How about overeating? Is one of the reasons nervous people tend to overeat that they find relaxation when they are full in the stomach via vns?


    Thanks
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tizim @ Oct 15 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm glad you guys brought this topic up, as it's something I've been thinking about for quite some time now.

    If I understand S8 correctly, I think you have his point down. Controlling anxiety during an activity and performing the activity itself are two different abilities, and if you master the former you have not necessarily mastered the latter.

    I've been reading up on Acceptance and Commitment Theory (ACT), and it constantly talks about welcoming and accepting anxiety during activites rather than trying to prevent it. For instance, the mother commits to finally taking her kids out to play while accepting her feelings of anxiety and laziness. But what if your ability to perform an activity hinges upon whether or not you're feeling anxious? To take your example, let's say someone usually great social skills, but if he's anxious then his brain freezes and whatever social skills he has go out the window. He may decide to accept his anxiety and commit to chatting up the cute girl sitting next to him, but his SNS explodes and he can't think of a thing to say. In this case, it makes sense for him to attempt to control his anxiety (assuming that this is possible), since anxiety is the limiting factor in his social abilities.

    ACT and CBT both have data suggesting that they reduce anxiety. They use entirely different methods, though, and it seems that the ACT authors I've read like to claim that many CBT techniques just don't work. But I think there's more evidence out there backing CBT at this point. So if your goal is to minimize anxiety during a particular activity, what can you do short of taking benzos?</div>

    I'm glad you brought up ACT. It's a wonderful new form of psychotherapy, that I think works particularly well for anxiety disorders, there's just not a lot of psychologists who use it yet. Yes, CBT has more evidence because it's been around longer, but the studies done thus far show that ACT provides comparable results. Also, both treatments are behavioral in that they use exposure therapy, they just have different justifications for doing it, and different approaches for it. I don't think you can go wrong either way, but I like ACT's philosophy.

    In the example that you bring up, I don't think anxiety is the limiting factor, and anyway I don't think it's possible to completely control it. I've never NOT been nervous when doing a cold approach and asking a girl out. It's decreased over time with practice, but there's still some there, and that's normal because I care about the outcome. ACT teaches that values and emotions are two sides of the same coin-so the only way to eliminate anxiety is to not care about having a relationship at all. Thus, if you're not willing to give that up (and I'm not), you have to be willing to have the anxiety that comes along with caring.

    Now, maybe I could be a smooth(ER) talker if I had no anxiety, but I can still do it reasonably well. I think it's about doing things "good enough." I believe accepting your anxiety (and that your efforts will be good enough), and committing to the task behaviorally will result in a better outcome, than constantly trying to reduce your anxiety in the moment (which distracts you from the task at hand, speaking). Also, ACT teaches a kind of 'defusion' from thoughts and feelings, so that you can still have them, but not be so attached to them, in order focus on doing what's important to you (developing a relationship with that girl).

    Also, to get back to the OP's question. Yes, vagal maneuvers like cold water immersion do reduce heart rate through vagal nerve activation. You have to understand the evolutionary purpose of this, based on the mammalian diving reflex. If you jump into a cold lake, your body slows down your heart rate and shifts blood to your heart and lungs, in order to stay alive. Thus, what is effective (i.e. spraying, splashing, etc.) depends on if it tricks your brain into thinking that you are submerging your head/body into cold water, and are at risk for hypothermia. Get it? Anything that successful mimicks that concept will work. However, cold water is too ridiculous of a technique, so I would really go with one like mimicking a bowel movement, which is the easiest to do. But again, I think these are just one-time tricks if you want to reduce your heart rate in a jiffy, and that they're not a 'solution' to anxiety. ACT would also argues that strategies to reduce anxiety, such as these, actually make anxiety worse and have costs in terms of time/energy/distraction.
    Sonic @ May 19 2009, 01:02 PM:
    "Hey buddy, The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn."

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