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    I wanted to start using some nolvadex to treat the mild gynecomastia I have on one side. My libido has already been lower than normal so I'm wondering if the nolvadex will make it better or worse.

    My last blood work:
    Estradiol: 29 Reference Range: 13-54 pg/mL
    Prolactin: 9.2 Reference Range: 2.0-18.0 ng/mL

    Testosterone has been consistently normal to high.

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    Senior Member joetelli's Avatar
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    it will make it worse, use letrozole or run epistane to try to get rid of your gyno. letro will kill your libido also but it will kill your estrogen too which in this case u want it to.

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    Senior Member Mitosis's Avatar
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    Nolva will lower E....which could hurt libido...

    Letro is very strong as an antiaromatase, I would go with aromasin, mild lowering of E and it raises igf1.
    "I'm not a big fan of evolutionary limitations, and you aren't either, or you wouldn't be pinning supraphysiological amounts of testosterone all the time."-FunkOdyssey



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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chaos Theory @ Jul 31 2009, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I wanted to start using some nolvadex to treat the mild gynecomastia I have on one side. My libido has already been lower than normal so I'm wondering if the nolvadex will make it better or worse.

    My last blood work:
    Estradiol: 29 Reference Range: 13-54 pg/mL
    Prolactin: 9.2 Reference Range: 2.0-18.0 ng/mL

    Testosterone has been consistently normal to high.</div>

    BUMP for this. How did it go?

    I'm curious because your estradiol levels weren't high to begin with...

  5. #5
    Senior Member nightop's Avatar
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    Yeah, I would avoid Letro and other nonsteroidal AIs. SERMs raise my libido btw -- it depends on the person and other contextual factors.
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    So is nolva the best option to treat (not prevent) gyno?

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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sterling100 @ Aug 30 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So is nolva the best option to treat (not prevent) gyno?</div>

    I don't think it has a lot of success in this application. The only truly effective treatment for established gyno is surgery.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Senior Member 1fast400's Avatar
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    Think most people mistake puffiness for gyno. No "hard" matter in the nipple, but something you can see through a shirt. I tend to agree with Benson, if you have ACTUAL gyno with true mass behind it, not sure it will do much.
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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightop @ Aug 30 2009, 09:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I would avoid Letro and other nonsteroidal AIs. SERMs raise my libido btw -- it depends on the person and other contextual factors.</div>

    The old adage that nonsteroidal AIs don't cause rebound has been refuted by new research.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sterling100 @ Aug 30 2009, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So is nolva the best option to treat (not prevent) gyno?</div>

    Not necessarily. IME letro works very well.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1fast400 @ Aug 30 2009, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Think most people mistake puffiness for gyno. No "hard" matter in the nipple, but something you can see through a shirt. I tend to agree with Benson, if you have ACTUAL gyno with true mass behind it, not sure it will do much.</div>

    Cell proliferation in the mammary is preceded by inflammation. Essentially, you can't gyno without inflammation and estrogen (and possibly IGF). So if you have a reason to think your estrogen is elevated and your nipples are inflamed I'd suggest getting off your ass and doing something. You can sit around all day and argue semantics, but I'd start taking action immediately.

    The popular thought that puffy mammary tissue isn't gyno, isn't entirely accurate. It's like saying you have a slow leak in your tire. It's still a hole, but it isn't exactly flat. In both cases, doing nothing will lead to a bad day.

    Don't ignore the warning signs.

    OP - Gyno is a bigger problem than your libido getting suppressed for a week or two. Priorities. If gyno isn't a priority now, and your getting it, it will be soon.
    Resident Badger
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  10. #10
    Senior Member 1fast400's Avatar
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    I never said one didn't lead to the other. My point was in defining the difference in puffiness vs actual gyno. If he defined gyno the way I think most do, then yes, nolva will help reduce his "issues". If it's the real deal, then no, I don't think it will matter what he takes, outside of knife.
    CEO: Scivation and Primaforce

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    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    I'm unconvinced it matters, personally. Just my humble opinion.
    Resident Badger
    Pick your poison and enjoy. John Berardi Joe DeFranco Kelly Baggett
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  12. #12
    Senior Member nightop's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Aug 30 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The old adage that nonsteroidal AIs don't cause rebound has been refuted by new research.</div>

    There's other reasons beyond that consideration, namely lipid and bone health.

    6-OXO is the way to go, but I guess its hard to source now?
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightop @ Aug 30 2009, 08:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There's other reasons beyond that consideration, namely lipid and bone health.

    6-OXO is the way to go, but I guess its hard to source now?</div>

    Well, I'll comment for the sake of pointless arguments.

    I highly doubt lipid and bone health are going to be issues for someone who exercises, eats half decent, and isn't taking it chronically. We're not talking about breast cancer patients. IME none of this has ever been an issue.
    Resident Badger
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  14. #14
    Senior Member nightop's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Aug 30 2009, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, I'll comment for the sake of pointless arguments.

    I highly doubt lipid and bone health are going to be issues for someone who exercises, eats half decent, and isn't taking it chronically. We're not talking about breast cancer patients. IME none of this has ever been an issue.</div>

    I strongly disagree. We've talked about this in depth in threads of old.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nightop @ Aug 30 2009, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I strongly disagree. We've talked about this in depth in threads of old.</div>

    I'm sure we both have our reasons. However, with the success I've had with some of the substances and the lack of health complications I'd hate to withhold a success story. Or at least hint at one.

    I've read the old threads and found your insight essential for treating gyno. So don't think I don't trust your opinion. In my case 6-OXO wasn't helpful. Steroidal AIs OTOH were very helpful. Yet, they lacked the ability to completely eliminate the condition. What they did do was buy me time to find a way to completely eliminate it. Letrozole, specifically helped breakup hard glandular build up.

    I'll agree that they aren't the answer for full out glandular gyno. At least not with the PCT protocol every one is using thus far. ::hint hint::
    Resident Badger
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  16. #16
    Senior Member nightop's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Aug 30 2009, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sure we both have our reasons. However, with the success I've had with some of the substances and the lack of health complications I'd hate to withhold a success story. Or at least hint at one.

    I've read the old threads and found your insight essential for treating gyno. So don't think I don't trust your opinion. In my case 6-OXO wasn't helpful. Steroidal AIs OTOH were very helpful. Yet, they lacked the ability to completely eliminate the condition. What they did do was buy me time to find a way to completely eliminate it. Letrozole, specifically helped breakup hard glandular build up.

    I'll agree that they aren't the answer for full out glandular gyno. At least not with the PCT protocol every one is using thus far. ::hint hint::</div>

    I see what you mean, and I agree that if someone isn't working and something else is, of course the latter is a better option depending on the cost/benefit of a given scenario. My point is merely that there are real downsides to Letro and Arimidex, which are often overlooked. If one is only using a couple weeks that is probably fine, but I would not use chronically unless I absolutely had to do so.

    Btw, if someone has real gyno issues that don't respond to SERMs and/or short AI cycle, it really is best to just get the surgery at a good place. This is O/T, but I always try to reiterate it because I've seen so many people waste so much time and money w/drug-based solution attempts that often never give them the results they need to let go of the issue completely.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Jakeshorts's Avatar
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    To these people I'd suggest looking at cause again. Some times the cure lies in cause. Just requires a little creative thought.

    You're definitely correct about the bad sides of chronic use.
    Resident Badger
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by ergoman500,Oct 29 2003, 11:36 PM
    "This study below, and dozens of other small studies lasting 3-12 months, all show at least a 65-70% overall success rate in complete reversal of gynecomastia. Overall, the best results appear in those using 40-60mg of tamoxifen/day for over 4-5 months.-Suprisingly, only about 10-15% of subjects typically experience any rebound in tissue growth or estrogen levels after stopping tamoxifen use. Using clomiphene citrate along with or instead of tamoxifen helps increase the success rate to over 85%."


    Metabolism. 1986 Aug;35(8):705-8.
    Treatment of gynecomastia with tamoxifen: a double-blind crossover study.
    Parker LN, Gray DR, Lai MK, Levin ER.
    Benign asymptomatic or painful enlargement of the male breast is a common problem, postulated to be due to an increased estrogen/testosterone ration or due to increased estrogenic or decreased androgenic stimulation via estrogen or androgen receptor interactions. Treatment at present consists of analgesic medication or surgery. However, treatment directed against the preponderance of estrogenic stimulation would seem to represent a more specific form of therapy. In the present double-blind crossover study, one-month courses of a placebo or the antiestrogen tamoxifen (10 mg given orally bid) were compared in random order. Seven of ten patients experienced a decrease in the size of their gynecomastia due to tamoxifen (P less than 0.005). Overall, the decrease for gynecomastia for the whole group was significant (P less than 0.01). There was no beneficial effect of placebo (P greater than 0.1). Additionally, all four patients with painful gynecomastia experienced symptomatic relief. There was no toxicity. The reduction of breast size was partial and may indicate the need for a longer course of therapy. A followup examination was performed in eight out of ten patients nine months to one year after discontinuing placebo and tamoxifen. There were no significant changes from the end of the initial study period except for one tamoxifen responder who developed a recurrence of breast tenderness after six months, and one nonresponder who demonstrated an increase in breast size and a new onset of tenderness after ten months. Therefore, antiestrogenic treatment with tamoxifen may represent a safe and effective mode of treatment for selected cases of cosmetically disturbing or painful gynecomastia.
    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    Of note, is that often men who are successfully treated using tamoxifen have had the condition for several years prior to regression...IHMO, over 80% of men can prevent the need for surgery by incorporating various treatments for at least 9 months continuously...Also, many of the studies considered "chest fat" to be just as responsive to treatment as those with breast tumour growth...


    Clin Ther. 1987;9(5):483-7.
    Idiopathic gynecomastia treated with tamoxifen: a preliminary report.
    Alagaratnam TT.
    Department of Surgery, Queen Mary Hospital, University of Hong Kong.
    Sixty-one Chinese men with idiopathic gynecomastia were treated with 40 mg of tamoxifen daily for one of four months (median, two months). Eighty percent had complete regression of their breast swelling. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed over a median follow-up period of 36 months.
    PMID: 3664552 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    Int J Androl. 2002 Oct;25(5):312-6.
    Causes of gynaecomastia in young adult males and factors associated with idiopathic gynaecomastia.
    Ersoz H, Onde ME, Terekeci H, Kurtoglu S, Tor H.
    Karadeniz Technical University, Faculty of Medicine, Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Trabzon, Turkey. hersoz@yahoo.com
    Gynaecomastia is a common clinical condition. Persistent pubertal or late onset idiopathic gynaecomastia is the leading cause of gynaecomastia in different series. The aim of this study was the assessment of the prevalence and characteristics of different causes of gynaecomastia in young adult males, and evaluation of the factors associated with idiopathic gynaecomastia. Fifty-three male patients (mean age 22.04 +/- 2.22, range 19-29), who had been admitted to our outpatient clinics with gynaecomastia as the main presenting symptom were enrolled in the study. Patients were evaluated with breast palpation, breast ultrasonography, anthropometric measurements and sex steroid levels. Secondary causes of gynaecomastia were ruled out. Thirty age-matched healthy individuals were also studied as healthy control group. Idiopathic gynaecomastia was diagnosed in 31 of 53 patients (58%), with 17 (32%) persistent pubertal and 14 (24%) late onset course. Other causes of gynaecomastia were hypogonadism in 13 cases (25%), hyperprolactinaemia in five (9%), chronic liver disease in two (4%), and drug induced (prolonged use of H2 antagonists) in two (4%). Patients with idiopathic gynaecomastia, either pubertal or late onset, were compared with the healthy control group in order to find out associated factors. Anthropometric measurements revealed a significant increase in body weight and body mass index (BMI) in the patient group compared with healthy controls (72.4 +/- 13.3 vs. 63.6 +/- 7.9 kg, p = 0.0086 and 25.2 +/- 4.0 vs. 21.5 +/- 2.7 kg/m2, p = 0.0001). Total skin fold thickness (SFT) of four different regions were also higher in the patient group (50.9 +/- 22.1 vs. 32.6 +/- 10.2 mm, p = 0.0006) indicating a higher body fat percentage. Total serum testosterone (4.76 +/- 1.31 vs. 5.70 +/- 1.06 microg/mL, p = 0.0038) and luteinizing hormone (LH) (4.80 +/- 1.92 vs. 7.32 +/- 1.90 mIU/mL, p < 0.0001) levels were significantly lower in the patient group while oestradiol levels were similar. There was a significant correlation between total testosterone and LH levels (r = 0.27, p = 0.0445). Total testosterone and LH levels were negatively correlated with BMI and total SFT. As a result most common form of gynaecomastia is idiopathic gynaecomastia either as persistent pubertal or late onset forms in young adult males. Idiopathic gynaecomastia is closely correlated with generalized obesity, reduced LH and testosterone levels which may be the result of increased conversion of testosterone to oestradiol in increased adipose tissue mass.
    PMID: 12270030 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    ".. I imagine him (Ergoman) as either some neo monk who has such a perfect balance with his body that he notices even the slightest difference from something..."..."Or he's a sup company rep with the worst computer skills I've ever seen... maybe he's playing dumb to trick us..."-Supnut

  19. #19
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    FOR gyno: raloxifene also seems to be as useful as tamoxifen

    http://www.gghjournal.com/volume20/4/ab13.cfm

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Raloxifene and Tamoxifen Treatment of Pubertal Gynecomastia

    Lawrence and colleagues report their experience with the use of either raloxifene or tamoxifen, both antiestrogenic agents, in reducing breast size in adolescent boys with benign gynecomastia. The data presented are from a retrospective review of 37 patients: 12 received reassurance alone, 10 received raloxifene (60 mg once daily for 3 to 9 months), and 15 received tamoxifen (10 to 20 mg twice dialy for 3 to 9 months). Baseline studies including LH, FSH, testosterone, and estradiol levels were normal in all subjects and there were no significant differences among the groups with regard to age at initiation of treatment, Tanner stage, BMI or baseline hormone levels. Significant reductions in breast diameter were measured with both raloxifene (2.5cm, 66% reduction) and tamoxifen (2.1cm, 46% reduction). However, a 50% or greater reduction was seen more often in the raloxifene treated group (86% vs 41%). No side effects of the medications were reported.

    Telephone follow-up was attempted to determine the rate of surgical treatment following the study. Approximately 40% of subjects contacted in each group underwent surgery. The authors concluded that treatment with the estrogen receptor inhibitors, raloxifene and tamoxifen, is both safe and effective, but admit that surgical intervention occurred despite the treatment. They further suggest that future studies need to utilize more precise methods for measuring glandular breast tissue and also for evaluating the psychosocial impact of various treatments.

    Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML. Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia. J Pediatr 2004;145:71-76.</div>

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    In addition, I have recently read some studies showing tamoxifen's beneficial effects on scar tissue, preventing excessive build up of fibroblast cells.

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