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  1. #1
    Senior Member Jedi Master's Avatar
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    I was reading a thread on bb.com about TTA and why Designer supplements discontinued it.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=108097611





    Im still not sure why, the answers one rep left were rather vague.



    Anyway, they were talking about staying away from all ppar gama related supplements. Doesnt sesamin effect this in some way?



    I have been trying to research for any answers via google, but to no avail.



    Is sesamin still good/healthy to take?
    Suprise, sometimes, I'll come around---

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserusan' post='480691' date='May 25 2008, 10:07 PM
    It's not DSHEA compliant.
    When has that ever stopped anyone?

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    Senior Member Benson's Avatar
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    The decision was financial on the part of DS but the recent findings with Avandia seem to indicate that the manipulation of PPAR Gamma is not without potential consequences.
    Remember, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...





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    Senior Member methodice's Avatar
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    What potential consequences?
    <span style="color:#FF0000">Latest tube recs</span>: <span style="color:#0000FF">TP?</span> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-i1cJh7L6I
    <span style="color:#FF0000">The last civilized bastion of truth and scientific reason declares you don't need to workout, just have good nutritional habits. The majority of us here are drug addicts and/or mentally disturbed, we also pretend to train but in reality we spend our time buzzing on adderall and masturbating to homosexual monkey porn</span>

  6. #6
    8man2k
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodice' post='480711' date='May 26 2008, 03:49 AM
    What potential consequences?




    http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01636.html



    Looks like meta analysis of studies showed there might be a significant increased risk for heart attacks.

    Needless to say this is a little unnerving as sesamin has been a staple of my regime for the past couple of years...assuming it's a PPAR gamma issue. Is this why avant stopped making sesathin?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jedi Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8man2k' post='480727' date='May 26 2008, 07:42 AM
    http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01636.html



    Looks like meta analysis of studies showed there might be a significant increased risk for heart attacks.

    Needless to say this is a little unnerving as sesamin has been a staple of my regime for the past couple of years...assuming it's a PPAR gamma issue. Is this why avant stopped making sesathin?




    I really appreciate all the feedback here gentlemen.



    I am concerened also because like 8man2k, i have been using sesamin for many many months now.



    I am not sure if Par Deus still reads these boards too often, but it would be great to get a detailed response from him.



    Any other detailed information anyone can get about negative side effects to otc ppar gamma manipulators would be helpful. I have a stock pile of both scivation and avant sesamin at home.
    Suprise, sometimes, I'll come around---

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi Master' post='480766 View Post
    http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01636.html



    Looks like meta analysis of studies showed there might be a significant increased risk for heart attacks.

    Needless to say this is a little unnerving as sesamin has been a staple of my regime for the past couple of years...assuming it's a PPAR gamma issue. Is this why avant stopped making sesathin?


    "Assuming it is a PPAR gamma issue" is where you went wrong here,as explained above.Sesathin has not been discontinued,either.



  9. #9
    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Extending what Colin was saying, PPARgamma agonism was never the goal anyways. It is one of our enemies when trying to cut, as it's involved in adipogenesis. PPARalpha has always been the target. Insofar as a Fatty Acid/Ligand hits PPARgamma that has always been a bad thing. All PPAR's are not created equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Kite' post='480775' date='May 26 2008, 11:31 AM
    Extending what Colin was saying, PPARgamma agonism was never the goal anyways. It is one of our enemies when trying to cut, as it's involved in adipogenesis. PPARalpha has always been the target. Insofar as a Fatty Acid/Ligand hits PPARgamma that has always been a bad thing. All PPAR's are not created equal.


    So is there anything benefcial with TTA?
    I may not be able to tell the difference between shaved or waxed, but I can spot a fake rolex a mile away.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhard_4eva' post='480805' date='May 26 2008, 03:27 PM
    So is there anything benefcial with TTA?
    Well yeah. I don't know why everyone is freaking out about TTA specifically... It doesnt even have significant action at PPARgamma. I thought people knew this:

    Recent studies have moreover identified two potent agonists of PPARbeta/delta, namely tetradecylthioacetic acid (TTA) and GW501516 [23, 24]. TTA is a potent activator of PPARbeta/delta and a weak activator of PPARalpha and PPARgamma. (Here)
    Activating PPARdelta is a very good thing, and is what is responsible for much of TTA's effects on beta oxidation, etc. Although other studies have found a larger role for PPARalpha in TTA's effects (such as here), none (that I know of) highlight PPARgama as being significant.



    Neither Sesamin or TTA have significant PPARgamma actions... My only explanation is that uhockey at bb.com is misinformed (despite his credentials).

  12. #12
    8man2k
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Kite' post='480810' date='May 26 2008, 02:56 PM
    Neither Sesamin or TTA have significant PPARgamma actions... My only explanation is that uhockey at bb.com is misinformed (despite his credentials).


    It was his credentials that made me think twice; rather then dismiss it like I do with most "bro knowledge"...does he frequent this board at all that he might respond here?

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    The qoutes below are good enough cause IMO to not use TTA.



    As I see it,Uhockey is misinformed as far as sesamin is concerned.I haven't bothered to look into TTA much considering I will not use it considering the same benefits can be conveyed via sesamin/fibrates with no down sides.The stipulation being that fibrates should be used with caution.





    Quote Originally Posted by Spook' post='353295' date='Jul 27 2006, 10:26 AM
    Sucrulose is an entirely different beast. It's metabolism and pharmacokinetics have been extensively studied. hell you crap out like 90% of it anyway because it is poorly absorbed.



    TTA on the other hand could be dangerous. Please note I did not say "is" I said "could be". Need studies to test a radio labed version in humans. It does freak me out because of it's fat solubility and that pharmacokinetic studies in rats show preferential incorporation in to phospholipid membranes of the heart, liver and kidney.



    With TTA it looks to me like you are taking in a fat that your body has a hellish time getting rid of. don't know what the ramifications of that are but it is enough of a big question mark to keep me away from it.



    I mean what exactly happens to the cells where it is incorporated in to the membrane over the long term? does it build up in fat tissue like fat soluble poisons? What is the pathway through which it is eliminated in the kidney? Does it place undue stress on the kidneys? The reports of cloudy urine really freaked me out.



    personally I would not touch the stuff.






    Dialogue between Eclypz and Spook on TTA:



    QUOTE(eclypz @ Jul 27 2006, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>



    This is a very real issue. For those who don't know rhabdonyolysis is a disease where your muscles waste away, and the byproducts like creatinine clog your kidneys until they fail.



    Is the thyroid the main determining factor in risk for this?





    No idea. We still have no clue what trigers rhabdonyolysis with fibrate+stain therapy. Hypothyroid comes up because there are many case reports of fenofibrate induced hypothyroidism or previously undiagnosed hypothyroidism causing rhabdonyolysis in some individuals who take fenofibrate.



    QUOTE

    Is this more important when it comes to beza or is even sesathin capable of producing this?





    I have seen reports with beza, feno, and gem if combined with statin. most of the monotherapy case reports are with feno. I have never seen a case report of gem adminstered alone causing it. I highly doubt sesamin would cause it due to it's mild nature.



    QUOTE

    If one were worried about rhabdomyolysis could they supplement with t4 or t3 in mild doses, or does it not work like that?





    Don't know. I do not know what causes it so i can't speculate. There just isn't any good data. Remember we are going off of case reports here not large clinical trials. The condition is very rare indeed.



    QUOTE

    when people complain of cramping and muscle weakness on TTA are they in fact describing rhabdomyolysis?





    Probobly not. But who the hell knows. I still can't beleive people are willing to take that stuff. Frankly TTA scares the crap out of me. I won't touch it with a ten foot pole. The idea of ingesting a non-metabolizable compound makes me nervous. Especially a fat soluble compound like TTA. Who the hell knows how long that stuff will sit around in your system. To scary for me.



  14. #14
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    Oh yeah,heed the words of Spook or suck at life.



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    Fish oil also effects ppar-gamma so I think any worries about sesamin are more than likely a bit overblown:



    EPA and DHA reduce LPS-induced inflammation responses in HK-2 cells: evidence for a PPAR-gamma-dependent mechanism.Li H, Ruan XZ, Powis SH, Fernando R, Mon WY, Wheeler DC, Moorhead JF, Varghese Z.

    Centre for Nephrology, Royal Free and University College Medical School, University College London, London, United Kingdom.



    BACKGROUND: Recent studies have shown that fish oil, containing omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (omega-3 PUFAs) eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) (C20:5 omega 3), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) (C22:6 omega 3) retard the progression of renal disease, especially in IgA nephropathy (IgAN). Despite increasing knowledge of the beneficial effects of fish oils, little is known about the mechanisms of action of omega-3 PUFAs. It has been reported that activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) inhibits production of proinflammatory cytokines. Both EPA and DHA have been shown to activate PPARs. The aim of this study was to examine if omega-3 PUFAs have anti-inflammatory effects via activation of PPARs in human renal tubular cells. METHODS: An immortalized human proximal tubular cell line [human kidney-2 (HK-2) cells] was used in all experiments. Conditioned media was collected from omega-3 PUFAs- treated cells and subjected to enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). Total cellular RNA was isolated from the above cells for real-time quantitative polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Nuclear Extracts were prepared from the HK-2 cells for transcription factor activation assay. RESULTS: Both EPA and DHA at 10 micromol/L and 100 micromol/L concentrations effectively decreased lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB) activation and monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1) expression. EPA and DHA also increased both PPAR-gamma mRNA and protein activity (two- to threefold) in HK-2 cells. A dose of 100 micromol/L bisphenol A diglycidyl ether (BADGE) abolished the PPAR-gamma activation induced by both EPA and DHA and removed the inhibitory effect of EPA and DHA on LPS-induced NF-kappaB activation in HK-2 cells. Overexpression of PPAR-gamma further inhibited NF-kappaB activation compared to the control cells in the presence of EPA and DHA. CONCLUSION: Our data demonstrate that both EPA and DHA down-regulate LPS-induced activation of NF-kappaB via a PPAR-gamma-dependent pathway in HK-2 cells. These results suggest that PPAR-gamma activation by EPA and DHA may be one of the underlying mechanisms for the beneficial effects of fish oil.
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    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin' post='480845' date='May 26 2008, 07:59 PM
    Oh yeah,heed the words of Spook or suck at life.
    Maybe its just me, but I'm not phased by speculative worries regarding the effects of the bodies inability to metabolize TTA.



    And yeah, fish oil activates PPARgamma too, with DHA being the primary culprit.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Jedi Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Kite' post='480810' date='May 26 2008, 03:56 PM
    Neither Sesamin or TTA have significant PPARgamma actions... My only explanation is that uhockey at bb.com is misinformed (despite his credentials).




    What credentials?
    Suprise, sometimes, I'll come around---

  18. #18
    Senior Member Mr.Kite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi Master' post='480869' date='May 26 2008, 10:16 PM
    What credentials?
    If you look at his bb.com profile, you'll find that he is a Medical Doctor and an employee of Designer Supplements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Kite' post='480853' date='May 26 2008, 07:35 PM
    Maybe its just me, but I'm not phased by speculative worries regarding the effects of the bodies inability to metabolize TTA.



    And yeah, fish oil activates PPARgamma too, with DHA being the primary culprit.


    Given that the speculation is a bit more grounded that just that,and who it is coming from (the guy who came up with Phenogen and played a big role in most of the original Avant line) I prefer to err on the side of caution.



  20. #20
    Senior Member D-termine's Avatar
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    I'll stick with Clen and Fibrates, sans the TTA. The only time I used it was Melting Point and Clen. That was a horrific day at work of cramping to the point of immobility
    Take care of your body with steadfast fidelity. The soul must see through these eyes alone, and if they are dim, the whole world is clouded. ~Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

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